"Audiophile Debate"

[Mr Peabody]

Luvindablues, first thanks, in your question the first guy who reads about the equipment at least has heard higher end equipment. In some instances that person may have more knowledge because he was exposed to more. If the owner of the high end gear has only one system his knowledge may be limited. There are too many variables that could be to make a definite decision one way or the other.

IBS has a point, some one who is rich could go in and buy a high end system based on sales rep recommendations and really not have a handle on what he has or any differences there of. One big clue are those who have gear and don't know how to hook it up. It's funny sometimes I'll talk to some one about their system, just seeing what they have, I'll ask them the brand or if they use a digital connection and you can just see my sentences flying right over their head.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Luvindablues, first thanks, in your question the first guy who reads about the equipment at least has heard higher end equipment. In some instances that person may have more knowledge because he was exposed to more. If the owner of the high end gear has only one system his knowledge may be limited. There are too many variables that could be to make a definite decision one way or the other.

IBS has a point, some one who is rich could go in and buy a high end system based on sales rep recommendations and really not have a handle on what he has or any differences there of. One big clue are those who have gear and don't know how to hook it up. It's funny sometimes I'll talk to some one about their system, just seeing what they have, I'll ask them the brand or if they use a digital connection and you can just see my sentences flying right over their head.

I couldn't agree with you and IBS more...just opening that side up for debate.

[IBSTORMIN]

Thanks to all, especially MR P. I have a new understanding of what an audiophile is, have never considered myself one and didn't want to be because of the snob factor!! I realise I can learn alot from you guys and that I am an audiophile, in your definition. My wife just says I have too many "BLACK BOXES" all over the house. Just see my list and you will see I am crazed just like you all are. Maybe I haven't spent as much on as high end stuff as you guys, but....... I'm hooked. I would love to hear comments on what I have and suggestions for improvement. (GOD, I REALLY AM THAT "A" WORD!!!!) (I wasn't referring to the word my wife calls me.) Please, all of you, look at my comments in "Do you really get what you pay for" in the cables forum on the DB-25 cable and give me feedback on that.

[Mr Peabody]

ISB your system looks balanced to me. I'm not familiar with the Overture series. Is Integra and Integra Research the same? I can't remember the name but there used to be a high end shop some where in KC that handled Wilson and Mark Levinson, have you ever been there?

[IBSTORMIN]

ISB your system looks balanced to me. I'm not familiar with the Overture series.

Back in the 90's the Prelude PFR was their best, replaced with the AUDIOPHILE "A" Quality Prelude MTS series around 2000. The Overture series was just below their Prelude series back in the 90's.

[Slippers On]

Well guys it seems that there is some genuine interest in this thread....some good discussion with many interesting views posted.

I note and agree about the word "audiophile" carrying some snobbish baggage with it, however, I have never shyed away from calling myself an audiophile because I do so for the right reasons.

The question of money seems to arise quite often. My own views on this are that you don't need a pile of cash to have a good system but you will inevitably need more as you go along with swapping in and out equipment and leads in an effort to improve. But where do you stop??

In order to improve your system you need a reference point. You maybe heard a great system and then began the trail of trying to improve your own in order to match it. This is the beginning of you becoming an audiophile.

The other avenue is the dangerous one.......where a Manufacturer directly, or through one of their sponsored Hi-Fi magazines tries to convince you that your system is a bollocks and you need their piece of equipment to make it better.

In my opinion if you are happy with your own system then don't give a moment's thought to glossy advertising. The flip side is that, if for example, you had occassion to hear a good quality system, (not necessarily an expensive one), and you feel you want to improve your own then by all means begin the steady journey of improving. I attach a WARNING here:--- ---you may well become a dreaded 'audiophile' for your interest could easily become a passion - then an obsession!!! If your interest or hobby costs you more than money then you've gone over the edge

Also, in my opinion:

1. the guy with loads of money who just goes out and buys a tip-top hifi system just because he can, is not necessarily an audiophile. If he doesn't know what he has purchased where is his reference point? He will soon tire of it like his other toys.

2. the guy with a modest system who listens to a lot of music, buys a lot of discs (or whatever medium) and never had a desire to improve or learn is not an audiophile.

3. the guy with an MP3 player who can't afford anything else at the moment but has a burning desire to experience what his mates have and is becoming more knowledgable as he goes along with his interest. He can't afford to upgrade yet but he has heard what music sounds like through some good systems and will get one some day....this guy has his reference point and many of the other ingredients common to an audiophile and so I would class him as an audiophile.

4. the guy who has learnt to make a single valve amplifier and starts wiring up his alarm clock to it.....wants to experiment constantly with electronics to improve sound around the house ------well chances are he could very well be or become an audiophile.

5. the guy who writes for a hifi magazine and gets to take all the new toys home to practice on but has lost the passion........................................... ........I'll leave that one open for debate


New Slippers On

[IBSTORMIN]

MR P Integra is high line Onkyo and Integra Research is their Audiophile line made in conjunction with Apogee, THX & Balanced Audio Technology. I had wondered, looking at all the names you mention, if you had ever heard of it. If you are interested: http://www.integraresearch.com/
Well, that also answers my next question: how does my equipment compare to what you guys are referring to? I guess if you have never heard of it that would be hard to answer.
No I haven't looked at Wilson or Mark Levinson because I know I can't afford it. I bought all of my equipment used. The Integra Research was something I didn't think I could afford but found a deal. The Onkyo Integra M-588F, from what I understand sold for $2400 back in the 80's and it is ssssooooo sweet. It became my main amp over the M-504 once I heard it. I am wondering if you are familiar with either of these?
To quote you: If you appreciate the difference and can't afford $20k, you will strive to put the best system you can together and enjoy it. Take opportunities to improve where and when you can. The root or drive behind any audiophile is the passion for the equipment and music. I started with H/K and found they have reliability problems, switched to Onkyo and just worked my way up to their best.

[hermanv]

IBSTORMING, IMHO you are an audiophile.

The proof is in asking the question: "What can I do to make my system better?"

[Mr Peabody]

I have heard of Onkyo and Integra but not the Research. Onkyo makes a good receiver. Their amp sections are noticeably better than most other mass market brands. Although I've heard of Integra I've never heard any. I know they must be good amps though, a guy ran some Infinity Kappa 9's with Integra. Kappa 9's were notorious for the impedance dropping crazy low and sending many brands of amps to the service bench. Levinson is out of my price as well but I go check out that type of gear that's how you'd know how your system stacks up. My Conrad Johnson is tube gear and would have a different presentation than integra. Based on Integra's rep I'm sure you get a very good bass response with good control and punch.

[IBSTORMIN]

MR P - The Integra Research line I have heard is snubbed by "TRUE AUDIOPHILES" probably because it is not really expensive. The RDV-1 THX Ultra2 DVD player listed for $3000 and with the Apogee clock it is probably the best CD player I have ever heard, Way better than my Integra dedicated CD player in A-B testing. The $4000 RDC-1MKII is rated a 5 on audioreview with people calling themselves audiophiles surprised at its quality for the money. The two are hooked together for analog transfer with a DB-25 computer cable that is better sounding than any RCA cables that I have ever tried and cost me $6. All I know is everything got much more transparent, bass is full, deep and tight. Dianna Krall on DVD-A sounds like she is standing in front of me, I can hear her lips smack as she opens her mouth to sing. Sends chills. My whole CD collection has changed in sound, some of it I am even disappointed in, but I realise that it now sounds like it was recorded, not muffled & boomy like I had heard it. With movies YOU ARE THERE!!! Any body else heard this equipment? Because, of course, it I can make it sound BETTER...........

[diamond]

I hope this forum might provide a good place to make my first post.
I probably don't qualify as an obsessive audiophile. Nevertheless, music has played a significant role in my personal, as well as professional life as a radio brodcaster of 30+ years.

My forte in the business is weighted toward what is known as "air talent" rather than technical accumen (which on a sliding scale of ten, I barely move the peg).

I don't understand much about computer sound capability, but am purchasing a computer which features "high definition audio"---hp pavilion elite m9150f.

I have purchased a set of Audioengine A5 speakers. I am also interested in getting some good quality mainstream headphones, but am wondering if the Sennheiser HD 650's would be an overreach for this system (even with headphone amp, Cardas cable, etc.) Any input?

[hermanv]

I don't understand much about computer sound capability, but am purchasing a computer which features "high definition audio"---hp pavilion elite m9150f.

I have purchased a set of Audioengine A5 speakers. I am also interested in getting some good quality mainstream headphones, but am wondering if the Sennheiser HD 650's would be an overreach for this system (even with headphone amp, Cardas cable, etc.) Any input?

Any computer is a hellish environment for those tiny parts of an audio signal that define that elusive thing known a high fidelity. The sheer volume of high speed digital signals gets into nearly everything, since digital signals are intrinsically highly noise tolerant, most manufacturers do little to prevent their presence all over the internal wires, power supplies and inside cabinet radiation.

A number of companies make outboard DAC/headphone drivers optimized to interface a computer. If you want good sound consider one of these, compared to most audiophile equipment these are quite reasonable on the used market. Additionally they will allow you to drive an external conventional power amplifier and speakers should you ever wish to do so..

[Mr Peabody]

If you are going to listen to Lossless the fabulous HD650's might be worth the investment. If you are going to store and listen to mp3 or some other compressed file save your money and just get something cheap like a Grado SR60 or entry Senn.

Let us know how you like the A5's. I was thinking about getting a pair of those for my daughter's computer.

[KUNK]

It's about the music. Just a few clean watts ("the first watt is the most important") with a pair of single, full range drivers, (no xovrs required) and a good smooth source is all I need. It's all subjective. We all hear what? Some of "best" and most memorable music I can remember was sitting with my Grandmother and a cup of tea listening to "Cruising Down The River" on a old tube phonograph....those were good times...kunk

[Slippers On]

Have any of you considered the fact that to be able to have a conversation in your music environment, turned up loud, is a good indication that you have got it right?


Slippers On

[StevenSurprenant]

Have any of you considered the fact that to be able to have a conversation in your music environment, turned up loud, is a good indication that you have got it right?


Slippers On

I know exactly what you mean!

[IBSTORMIN]

Have any of you considered the fact that to be able to have a conversation in your music environment, turned up loud, is a good indication that you have got it right?


Slippers On

HUH? WHAT DID YOU SAY? I CAN"T HEAR YOU. LET ME TURN THE STEREO DOWN.

I think that probably depends on how much POWER you have cranking. LOL

I find, as I keep upgrading my equipment, I don't HAVE to turn it up to enjoy it, the detail comes through at lower volumes and it is more enjoyable.
Having said that, I just realized I had BACH's Organ music cranking in the basement in DVD-Audio 5.1 and my wife asked me to turn it down! (SIGH) That's where the above happened !

[hermanv]

Apparent loudness changes in very subtle ways with better sound quality. With better equipment you can hear more details at the same volume settings, but it doesn't sound as loud because the ear takes many volume cues from distortion.

I had a relative over, so of course I wanted to show off my system, She said "I don't like it loud, it hurts my ears". I played at my normal listening level and she said that was fine. If fact it was probably quite a bit louder than they play their mass market system at home. Since the "uglies" were gone it didn't seem loud to her.

Radio Shack sells a cheap level meter, it's hardly the last word in scientific (or accurate) equipment, but it provides a handy reference not confused by subjective opinion.