Amp heats up and shuts off - Help!!

[msrance]

So you play both sets of speakers at the same time? If so, you're giving your Yamaha a REALLY tough load...by my calculations, about a 2.67-ohm load. The Yamaha may be able to take it, but it might be running pretty hot.

How do you make these calculations Jeskibuff? Could you help me out - just for further increase of general knowledge. Some how the Yamaha doesnt seem to be running too hot and its never tripped on the protection circuitry once since I have shifted to this configuration. Do you think this whole connection path somehow stumps the potection?

This sounds like a connector problem to me. What kind of connector are you using? Is it just one cable with a mini-phono plug at one end and two male RCA plugs on the other end? Is it a combination of cables and a "Y" adapter?

The sound card has a single mini phono plug at both ends that gets connected to the the auxiliary in of the Altec powered sub. From the Altec the standard Banana connector wires run one each from the sattelite speaker outputs to the Yamaha's Tape In inputs.

You don't want to do that. The output level of the Altec should be too high for what your Yamaha is expecting.

You have a point here - bcos I had never experienced this clipping with either of the equipment running seperately. What do you suggest as the solution to this problem. I have already tried connecting the sound card out directly to the Yamaha with "mini phono at one end and two male RCA plugs at other end - and like I told you - it just delivers a very low sound output from only the left channel speaker.

The Altec has nothing to worry about. Your Yamaha IS vulnerable to damage, though!

Do you suggest if all these methods are not working - i better revert back to using the computer-Altec and the Yamaha as two seperate units with no interconnectivity - rather than end up with a burnt Amp? But believe me the sound uotput of the Altec at 40W rms is really low for the room size.

[jeskibuff]

How do you make these calculations Jeskibuff?

Well, simplifying it requires considering your speakers just pure resistance loads. In fact, there are crossovers involved which add impedance and capacitance to the mix. Putting two speakers in series is a simple calculation. Just add the impedances. In other words, a 4-ohm speaker in series with an 8-ohm speaker would present a 12-ohm load to your amp/receiver. Connecting them in parallel (as you have done with the A/B setup) requires a different calculation. It requires summing the inverses, then inverting the sum. Mathematically, you could represents this as 1/((1/A) + (1/B)) where A and B are the impedances of your A and B speakers. So in your case, you would add 1/4 to 1/8, then divide that into 1, giving 2.67.

Some how the Yamaha doesnt seem to be running too hot and its never tripped on the protection circuitry once since I have shifted to this configuration. Do you think this whole connection path somehow stumps the potection?

My best guess is that you may not be driving it hard enough (at loud volumes) to trip the circuitry and it's able to handle it. It's a gamble...the Yamaha MAY be able to handle it, or you MAY be stressing it a bit, reducing its usable lifespan. Maybe an email to Yamaha would get a better answer as to the detriments.

The sound card has a single mini phono plug at both ends that gets connected to the the auxiliary in of the Altec powered sub.

I assume you mean the sound card cable. Both ends of that cable are probably stereo connectors, which should look like this: . Note the two black bands on the metal tip?

From the Altec the standard Banana connector wires run one each from the sattelite speaker outputs to the Yamaha's Tape In inputs.

And you want to disconnect this PRONTO. Speaker outputs are way too high for low-level inputs. You could do permanent damage to the input circuitry on the Yamaha.

What do you suggest as the solution to this problem. I have already tried connecting the sound card out directly to the Yamaha with "mini phono at one end and two male RCA plugs at other end - and like I told you - it just delivers a very low sound output from only the left channel speaker.

Well, this connection is what I wanted to find out more about...from the sound card to the Yamaha...forget the Altec for now. I suspect that you may have some mono connectors or the wrong "Y" adapter. Here's what a mono plug looks like: . Notice the single black band on the metal tip?

Do you suggest if all these methods are not working - i better revert back to using the computer-Altec and the Yamaha as two seperate units with no interconnectivity - rather than end up with a burnt Amp?

You SHOULD be able to make the connection properly. If you're getting stereo output with your Altec speakers, you should get a good stereo input to your Yamaha.

[F1]

It's good to know that the shut-off problem is solved. By rerouting the subwoofer basically your amplifier does not handle the freq below the crossover freq, which is now handled by subwoofer amplifier. It reduces a great deal of load since bass takes a lot of power.

As for the soundcard connection, I strongly believe you are using mono plug. Get the stereo jack as Jeskibuff suggested and I think it will solve the problem. I used to connect my computer from the soundcard to receiver using stereo mini plug at one end and two RCA plugs at the other end and never had such a balance/hum problem. Good luck.

[msrance]

My best guess is that you may not be driving it hard enough (at loud volumes) to trip the circuitry and it's able to handle it. It's a gamble...the Yamaha MAY be able to handle it, or you MAY be stressing it a bit, reducing its usable lifespan. Maybe an email to Yamaha would get a better answer as to the detriments.

Maybe I will do just that - but i doubt if they will reply to dumb querries like these from imbeciles. Anyways no harn in giving it a try.

And you want to disconnect this PRONTO. Speaker outputs are way too high for low-level inputs. You could do permanent damage to the input circuitry on the Yamaha.

Thanks for that one buddy. That connections dumped. I woudnt try any new antics without better info hereafter.

I suspect that you may have some mono connectors or the wrong "Y" adapter. Notice the single black band on the metal tip?You SHOULD be able to make the connection properly. If you're getting stereo output with your Altec speakers, you should get a good stereo input to your Yamaha.

I am in a rather isolated, godforsaken place - where finding anything technical is out of question ( U can imagine the rest when i tell u, u dont find blank CD here ). Next time i go to Delhi - i sure will arrange for a stereo adapter for the Y cables.

But i must say Jeskibuff and F1 seem to be on the path to clairvoyance - peeping into my head to check out all things stupid that i could have done. And till now i thought it was just us doctors jobs to operate on people's minds!! Thanks a ton buddy.

[jeskibuff]

there are crossovers involved which add impedance and capacitance to the mix.

Oops...I meant "...inductance and capacitance...". Impedance is actually a measure of resistance, capacitance, inductance and other factors that resists or "impedes" electrical current flow.

Next time i go to Delhi - i sure will arrange for a stereo adapter for the Y cables.

Before you do that, you need to tell us what you've got. If you get a stereo adapter but the "Y" cables are mono, it still won't work right.

But i must say Jeskibuff and F1 seem to be on the path to clairvoyance - peeping into my head to check out all things stupid that i could have done.

Well, it helps that we've probably both done such "stupid" things many times in our lives. So, we're not clairvoyant...just "experienced"! Of course, when we "normal" people make mistakes, we just take our damaged electronics in to the repair shop. When you doctors use a mono heart bypass valve instead of a stereo valve, it has much more dire consequences!

[msrance]

If you get a stereo adapter but the "Y" cables are mono, it still won't work right.

Yes, Jeskibuff, you could trust me to make these silly mistakes - but then the same can be said for the chap who assembelled the Y cables for me. The adapter is stereo - the one with two black bands - but the Y cables maybe mono. How do you check out if the Y cables are mono? except for the fact that they run only one speaker - how else do you get to that diagnosis?

Well, it helps that we've probably both done such "stupid" things many times in our lives. So, we're not clairvoyant...just "experienced"! Of course, when we "normal" people make mistakes, we just take our damaged electronics in to the repair shop. When you doctors use a mono heart bypass valve instead of a stereo valve, it has much more dire consequences!

First of all friend, let me clarify that its not that we docs are "abnormal" - we are about as normal as anyone else! Thank God for small mercies - there are no stereo heart valves. But I was just thinking - if the Y cables of such a valve were to short circuit - what would be the side effect to the individual's hair !!

[jeskibuff]

...the same can be said for the chap who assembelled the Y cables for me.

Ah...if I'm right, I think we may have located the problem. These are homemade cables? Are the connectors hand soldered to the wires? So far this looks like it may be the culprit and the source of the hum. Can you describe this cable? Does it have a stereo or mono mini-phono jack?

How do you check out if the Y cables are mono?

I assume that you don't have a volt-ohm meter on hand. You can build a little continuity tester pretty easily from devices like battery-powered flashlights, remote controls and some wire. Let me know what you have on hand and I'll walk you through it. You need about a 2-foot section of flexible wiring such as cheap speaker cable. Lamp cord will work, but it will be harder to work with. A flashlight will work, but one where the flashlight will still work with the battery compartment opened. A battery-powered toy might be another good possibility, like a toy car.

[F1]

Yes, Jeskibuff, you could trust me to make these silly mistakes - but then the same can be said for the chap who assembelled the Y cables for me. The adapter is stereo - the one with two black bands - but the Y cables maybe mono. How do you check out if the Y cables are mono? except for the fact that they run only one speaker - how else do you get to that diagnosis?

Strange, you have stereo mini plug but getting mono sound. Did you plug it in to the soundcard all the way in? Basically if you have connector something like this
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=274%2D883
or
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd..._ID=4885&DID=7
(ok wrong size in the part from Partsexpress, but this type) you just need to connect one end to soundcard and the other end to normal RCA cable to amplifier.
Try also to connect to different input on the amplifier: aux, tape or else, and see if you have the same problem.

[msrance]

Strange, you have stereo mini plug but getting mono sound. Did you plug it in to the soundcard all the way in? Basically if you have connector something like this
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd..._ID=4885&DID=7 you just need to connect one end to soundcard and the other end to normal RCA cable to amplifier. Try also to connect to different input on the amplifier: aux, tape or else, and see if you have the same problem.

Yes, my friend F1, You've hit it bang on again. This looks like the partsexpress cable. It is plugged all the way in. I tried connecting it with variuos inputs - but thats the best it ever does. The problem is with the Y cable that has a stereo adapter at one end and has connectors for connecting to Amp input. ( This chap calls them the Banana Plugs ).

Ah...if I'm right, I think we may have located the problem. These are homemade cables? Are the connectors hand soldered to the wires? So far this looks like it may be the culprit and the source of the hum. Can you describe this cable? Does it have a stereo or mono mini-phono jack?

Yes, Jeskibuff they are home made cables. The connectors are hand soldered to the wires. This cable has a mini phono jack at one end - from here two pairs of flimsy wires are soldered which at the other end are soldered to a pair of ?RCA connectors (the above mentioned ones- Banana Plugs)

I assume that you don't have a volt-ohm meter on hand. You can build a little continuity tester pretty easily from devices like battery-powered flashlights, remote controls and some wire. Let me know what you have on hand and I'll walk you through it. You need about a 2-foot section of flexible wiring such as cheap speaker cable. Lamp cord will work, but it will be harder to work with. A flashlight will work, but one where the flashlight will still work with the battery compartment opened. A battery-powered toy might be another good possibility, like a toy car.

Correct Assumption, friend. I indeed dont have a volt-ohm meter. I guess I could get it tested from some small time electronics repair chap. I dont think I could ever build such a thing even if I had all those things.

Did I ever tell you that I'd got admitted to an engineering college by sheer chance ? ( electric engineering - at that ). I flunked my 1st semester exam in 'Applied Mechanics'. Now thats what I call - undying interest in a subject. Not that I was dumb enough to not pass - I could complete my medicine without any hurdles along the way later - but i failed in engineering coz I just plain hated Physics, Electricity and the whole gamut of such insanities! The thought of making something brings back all the painful memories of failure!

Anyways, I do have a thin, copper lamp wire, a flashlight but not the kind that could work when open. I guess the TV repair chap would be a cheaper bet on this one. No toys - I am too old for them and no kids (actually no wife too) - so the whole thing might be a bit too expensive for a screening test. What's to be checked in this whole assembly?

[jeskibuff]

No toys - I am too old for them and no kids (actually no wife too) - so the whole thing might be a bit too expensive for a screening test.

Okay...so you're too old for toys and don't have any kids, but maybe you have some old materials left over from medical school.

Perhaps you have on hand Milton Bradley's "Operation"


Of all the toys out there, this is nothing more but an entertaining continuity tester! But if you don't have one on hand, just forget it. The problem is most likely in that homemade cable. Get a store-bought one and I'm sure your hum & no-left-channel problem will go away.

[msrance]

The problem is most likely in that homemade cable. Get a store-bought one and I'm sure your hum & no-left-channel problem will go away.

I guess so, The Y cable should be the culprit. I will get myself a better Y cable when I go to a city. Thanks Jeskibuff.

But still do you feel - getting this one tested out - or getting a new one made from some local small time electronics repair chap will not be of any help for the time being - till i can get something better?

Or did I paint too pessimistic a picture of myself?

[jeskibuff]

But still do you feel - getting this one tested out - or getting a new one made from some local small time electronics repair chap will not be of any help for the time being - till i can get something better?

The way you describe it (flimsy and homemade) tells me that it's most likely at fault. It's difficult to do a good job soldering such connectors. A precision manufacturing facility will do a much better job, ensuring solid electrical connections, sturdy construction and adequate insulation. Rather than getting another "Y" cable, get one of these type connectors that F1 linked to:

This should last a lifetime and is virtually indestructible. Cables are much more vulnerable to damage (pinching, failure due to flexing, etc.), so if a "Y" cable fails, you have to search for another one. With the connector pictured above, a common RCA cable is the weak point, and they're relatively easy to find in a variety of lengths and quality.

did I paint too pessimistic a picture of myself?

Not at all. I trust that my little "normal people" and "medical school tools" comments were taken as just funning with you!

Incidentally, there's ONE test that you can make pretty easily. Just flip the RCA connectors going into your Yamaha (left/right). Instead of the left channel humming, I bet the right channel will hum. All that will prove is that the Yamaha is NOT at fault. The problem still could be with the "Y" cable or the adapter. Swapping the connections won't give a definitive answer over which is faulty, but it eliminates one possibility.

[msrance]

Incidentally, there's ONE test that you can make pretty easily. Just flip the RCA connectors going into your Yamaha (left/right). Instead of the left channel humming, I bet the right channel will hum.

Yes, Jeskibuff, Swapping the RCA connectors just changes the channel that hums. One look at this cable and you'd know - but then I couldnt have thought of getting anything better in a place so desolate and isolated.

I guess, if I can find that Adaptor you refer to , I sure will go for it. Looks like a lifetime bargain.

And yes, All your comments were taken rather sportingly, and I do hope I havent gone around palpating any tender nerves!

I have a Sattelite Radio from worldspace (http://www.worldspace.com) with a reciever in the general category WSSR11 (BPL Celeste model) - but the sound uotput from the sattelite reciever is very less compared to the rest of the components attached to the amplifier. I could find no literature on the gain of the reciever - but could that be the only variable affecting the final sound output or could there be anymore factors that I am overlooking?

[jeskibuff]

I have a Sattelite Radio from worldspace (http://www.worldspace.com) with a reciever in the general category WSSR11 (BPL Celeste model) - but the sound uotput from the sattelite reciever is very less compared to the rest of the components attached to the amplifier. I could find no literature on the gain of the reciever - but could that be the only variable affecting the final sound output or could there be anymore factors that I am overlooking?

Sorry we overlooked this question when you posted it in your original message...we just got sidetracked on the other issues, that's all!

Your receiver has a downloadable manual at http://www.worldspaceradios.co.uk/celeste-manual.pdf. On page 6 it says that the line-out jacks are not adjustable, so they will always be at a level that is lower than your DVD player (unless you can adjust the output level of the DVD player downwards). There was very little to be found specifically about your Yamaha. The most information I found was at http://www.yamahamusic.com.au/main.asp?sec=products, and that didn't say a lot. It's likely that you can't compensate for input level variances, but if you could find your manual, it might tell you how you can. Or maybe someone else has the same (or similar) model. There's not really a problem with the difference in volume, aside from the fact that you have to be careful when switching to the DVD. It would be nice if the Yamaha could compensate for the differences, but you may have to live with it!

[msrance]

Your receiver has a downloadable manual at http://www.worldspaceradios.co.uk/celeste-manual.pdf.

I am amazed at your ability to drill out relevant URLs from obscurity. I checked out on the Worldspace.com website - and couldnt find a relevant download - so I just let it be. Thanks for this one Pal!!

There was very little to be found specifically about your Yamaha. The most information I found was at http://www.yamahamusic.com.au/main.asp?sec=products, and that didn't say a lot. There's not really a problem with the difference in volume, aside from the fact that you have to be careful when switching to the DVD. It would be nice if the Yamaha could compensate for the differences, but you may have to live with it!

I guess, You are right - I will have to live with the lack of gain compensation. Actually, the only problem is - as you say - when you switch to DVD from Tuner - the change in volume level is not for the faint of heart !!! Sometimes a guest accidently changes the inputs - and then he's in for a rude shock!!

But tell me, do the changes in signal strength affect the sound output of these satellite recievers? I mean if I get a 4 bar signal strength or a 2 bar - will it affect the final sound output and the Clarity of the output?

[jeskibuff]

I am amazed at your ability to drill out relevant URLs from obscurity.

Well, as seen earlier in this thread, I missed that Rroar II link even when it was staring me in the face!

do the changes in signal strength affect the sound output of these satellite recievers? I mean if I get a 4 bar signal strength or a 2 bar - will it affect the final sound output and the Clarity of the output?

No. Your volume control is very able to compensate for the lower signal strength coming out of the satellite receiver. With input gain compensation, you're actually boosting the signal level twice...once as the signal initially enters the preamp's input section, then again with the setting of the main volume control. The only bad thing about a low signal level coming in is the possibility of a higher noise floor. It's nice having a good strong signal coming in, because when you amplify a weak signal, you're actually boosting any noise on that line as well. What I'm saying is that you'd probably get the same output quality whether or not you have gain compensation on the Yamaha.

[msrance]

Your volume control is very able to compensate for the lower signal strength coming out of the satellite receiver. With input gain compensation, you're actually boosting the signal level twice...once as the signal initially enters the preamp's input section, then again with the setting of the main volume control. The only bad thing about a low signal level coming in is the possibility of a higher noise floor. It's nice having a good strong signal coming in, because when you amplify a weak signal, you're actually boosting any noise on that line as well.

Thanks for that one Jeski !! I seem to know so much more about Audio than I knew a month back.

[msrance]

Hello again Jeski! I know I am such a bother - but now there's this new problem that I just noticed - with the DIY 8 ohm speakers I was so happy about.
The speakers make an aweful resonating sound when pushed hard - just the LF drivers - that is. I was today playing this pop album (The only pop album I ever bought - but then TATU are barely pop - they are so overtly Popular Rock that I decided to go for them). Anyways - so when pushed close to max the speakers made this godaweful sound - that I can only describe as a flutter - and when I took off the panel to check out the driver state - they were actually fluttering ( like we say in medicine - there are normal heart contractions and then there are flutters - that is when the heart is contracting so fast that is doing nothing useful with the contraction - just harming itself) - so these HF drivers - all 4 of them at 8" were doing nothing worthwhile - but fluttering at an enormous rate and resonating witht he cabinet - and it felt like the whole assembly is gonna fall to pieces any moment now - but when pulled back to a decent volume they became alright - next time I did an experiment with it again - and this time - they started giving way earlier than the previous attempt.
Whats with this buddy? and how do I handle this? apart from the evident way of not pushing the volume too hard.

[jeskibuff]

do the changes in signal strength affect the sound output of these satellite recievers? I mean if I get a 4 bar signal strength or a 2 bar - will it affect the final sound output and the Clarity of the output?

Oops...I think I mis-read this question when I first replied to you. Yes, incoming signal strength (off the satellite) probably WILL affect the sound quality. I don't know much about satellite reception, but if it's digital, you may get dropouts on a weak signal and if it's analog, you should get noise and/or distortion. Sorry that my earlier response may have been off-base!

when pushed close to max the speakers made this godaweful sound - that I can only describe as a flutter

This sounds to me like the drivers can't handle the volume, especially with low frequencies. The Yamaha's telling them what to do, but they don't have the ability to respond properly. Being DIY speakers, this could be just inadequate design. If you could "roll-off" the bass level to just these speakers, that would probably help, but I imagine the Yamaha doesn't have that flexibility. A possible solution would be to put a capacitor in series with those speakers. That would pass only the higher frequencies and block the low ones. You'd still get the low frequencies from your "A" speakers and sub.

Anyway...that's just my "guess". Perhaps some others will have some other ideas about what's wrong.

[kspv]

I have the same problem as yours with respect to the line-out volume of the BPL Celeste Worldspace receiver, which I use with a Yamaha AX-396 amplifier and Lithos Studio-1 monitor speakers (www.lithosindia.com). I observed that the satellite radio signals are inherently low in volume, and have about 40% lesss volume than even the normal FM radio signals, which I receive through the same tuner. Therefore, the problem may not be with the line out volume of the Celeste itself, because the FM and cassette sections of the same tuner are seen to deliver normal output. I even tried connection the tuner to the "phono" input of the Yamaha AX-396, as the phono input is more sensitive than other inputs in an amp (as the output of a turntable is much less than any other audio equipment), but this resulted in very high input volume and distortion.

Roar-II is a powered subwoofer of Sonodyne which is critically acclaimed, and therefore should not create any problems to your Yamaha AX-596. The problem may be the Sonus floorstanders demanding too much power at higher volumes from the Yamaha (in which case I suggest you buy speakers with higher impedence, lower wattage and higher sensitivity), or simply the + & - of the speaker cables may be shorting somewhere. The resistor method may actually deteriorate the sound quality, and therefore I do not advice it