Looks like Plasma still beats LCD

[3db]

Here's a link that did a comparison of Plasma vs LCD..

http://www.displaymate.com/LCD_Plasma_ShootOut.htm

[zepman1]

Imagine that. Notice what is used as a reference display? CRT, but this would be obvious to MOST people I think.

[GMichael]

How long till the Pixy bomb blows?

[3db]

Imagine that. Notice what is used as a reference display? CRT, but this would be obvious to MOST people I think.

Your sarcasm is NOT appreciated.

[zepman1]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, and the comments are not directed at you anyhow. The CRT reference is with respect to a previous discussion. Anyhow, its an interesting article.

[3db]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, and the comments are not directed at you anyhow. The CRT reference is with respect to a previous discussion. Anyhow, its an interesting article.


No worries then. All is good.

[N. Abstentia]

I guess that's why all the manufacturers are abandoning plasma?

[3db]

I guess that's why all the manufacturers are abandoning plasma?

Thats not a good arguement as can be demonstrated by the VHS format beating out the beta format which was clearly far superior over VHS.

[Worf101]

How long till the Pixy bomb blows?
(Worf grabs helmet and flak vest)
When he reads this he'll go flat out noooklearrr!!!!
(Worf adjusts goggles and radiations suit)
I'm quite surprised he hasn't shown up already...

Da "Waiting for the bomb to drop" Worfster

[N. Abstentia]

Thats not a good arguement as can be demonstrated by the VHS format beating out the beta format which was clearly far superior over VHS.

Obviously not.

[GMichael]

Obviously not.

Your avatar is confusing me. Are you N. Abstentia or Nightflier?

[N. Abstentia]

Did Nightflier steal my avatar???? THIEF!

[nightflier]

No I didn't!

...and don't mess with Clint, either.

[pixelthis]

Thats not a good arguement as can be demonstrated by the VHS format beating out the beta format which was clearly far superior over VHS.

VHS beat out BETA, because of Sony arrogance, mostly.
VHS had longer playing times and several other advantages, the better PQ of
Beta wasnt as much as has been reported.
Likewise LCD meets the needs of more people, and most prefer the picture,
no surprize its winning, and plasma is walking the last mile.
As for displaymate, their site is trimmed in panny blu, but I guess thats
just a co-inky-dink.:1:

[pixelthis]

I guess that's why all the manufacturers are abandoning plasma?

SHUSHHHHHH.
We don't want all of those plasma owners to get upset, now do we?
If they found out that they own a dying format, and that most think that looking
at a plasma screen is like looking into a clothes washer while its running, the poor dears
might get a tad upset.
Just let them watch their dim glossy screens, sucking their thumbs and comforted
by the glow of phosper, reminding them of days when they watched howdey
Doody while eating their corn flakes, and the world was a simpler place.
Poor dears are in such denial , we wouldnt want to cause any psychotic breaks, hum?:1:

[GMichael]

It's about time. Let the fun begin.

[Ed_in_Tx]

Things I considered before I bought a 40" Sony LCD last year: Power consumption since my set is on 16-17 hours a day, and reliability, having noticed the almost double the cost of extended service contracts for similarly priced plasmas vs LCD sets. The extended service companies certainly notice the higher repair costs of a plasma set and that is reflected in the price of the service contracts. With the LCD backlight set to a reasonable level, 2 to 3, my 40" Sony draws less than 100 Watts. I tend to sit in front of the TV so severe off-angle viewing is of no concern, looks very good at reasonable off-angles <45° or so even to plasma owning friends.

[pixelthis]

Things I considered before I bought a 40" Sony LCD last year: Power consumption since my set is on 16-17 hours a day, and reliability, having noticed the almost double the cost of extended service contracts for similarly priced plasmas vs LCD sets. The extended service companies certainly notice the higher repair costs of a plasma set and that is reflected in the price of the service contracts. With the LCD backlight set to a reasonable level, 2 to 3, my 40" Sony draws less than 100 Watts. I tend to sit in front of the TV so severe off-angle viewing is of no concern, looks very good at reasonable off-angles <45° or so even to plasma owning friends.

Thanks for the info about the service contracts, pretty much goes along with what I have heard.
Plasmas used to be shipped in metal cases, but this got to be a PR snafu, so now they are shipped in normal boxes, and the cost of busted sets is eaten.
So the expense of moving a plasma also figures into these service contracts.
With a backlight behind the sony, and the contrast and backlight turned down to 50% or so you will find the black level much improved, BTW.:1:

[Woochifer]

As for displaymate, their site is trimmed in panny blu, but I guess thats
just a co-inky-dink.:1:

Oh, but those test shots showing the huge off-axis color shifting that occurs with LCDs use red-dominated images. So, given that it was not a blue image, the test was valid, eh?

[pixelthis]

Oh, but those test shots showing the huge off-axis color shifting that occurs with LCDs use red-dominated images. So, given that it was not a blue image, the test was valid, eh?


The images are "red" because of the doppler effect.
But I am sure that if Panny could have found a way...:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

VHS beat out BETA, because of Sony arrogance, mostly.
VHS had longer playing times and several other advantages, the better PQ of
Beta wasnt as much as has been reported.
Likewise LCD meets the needs of more people, and most prefer the picture,
no surprize its winning, and plasma is walking the last mile.
As for displaymate, their site is trimmed in panny blu, but I guess thats
just a co-inky-dink.:1:

Sorry pixie, but wrong again. The picture quality superiority of beta over VHS was well known. Each time VHS improved its picture quality and sound, Beta did even moreso. What killed Beta was Sony refusal to liscense its technology to other manufacturers, something that VHS did.

LCD meets peoples budget considerations, folks that look at cost more than performance. In spite of your delusion beliefs, plasma's still outperform even the best of LCD panels, though the advantage is shrinking because of Pioneers exit from the plasma market(they where the leaders and pushers of plasma technology)

I now own a top of the line 55" LCD from Sony, a Pioneer Kuros 60", a Sony CRT projector, and a custom 65" CRT based RPTV. There is no way my sony looks better than my Kuros...no way no how, and my Sony has received excellent reviews.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The images are "red" because of the doppler effect.
But I am sure that if Panny could have found a way...:1:

Doppler effect?? Pathetic response. They would have to be running very fast past the panels for the doppler effect to be visible at that distance. These shots are simple non moving front and side shots, so your explanation is completely wrong.

[GMichael]

Doppler effect?? Pathetic response. They would have to be running very fast past the panels for the doppler effect to be visible at that distance. These shots are simple non moving front and side shots, so your explanation is completely wrong.

You gotta admit though. That was funny.
How fast is 15% of the speed of light these days?:skep:

[Ed_in_Tx]

What killed Beta was Sony refusal to liscense its technology to other manufacturers, something that VHS did.



NEC and Sanyo were two manufacturers of Beta other than Sony. And they were not rebadged Sonys. I know, I went to the tech schools to learn how to repair them and I repaired about 1,000 VCRs a year for 25 years, about 20 or so a week (once in the heyday of the '80s I repaired as many as 35 VCRs in a week) so been there, done that. I never did like Beta much except for the marginal picture quality on the early machines due to the use of a larger head drum which gave it horizontal resolution to about 270 lines compared to VHS at about 240 lines. Neither equaled NTSC broadcast TV at 330 lines. VHS HiFi and SVHS plus the mechanical simplicity of the VHS tape transport mechanism finally did Beta in.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

NEC and Sanyo were two manufacturers of Beta other than Sony. And they were not rebadged Sonys. I know, I went to the tech schools to learn how to repair them and I repaired about 1,000 VCRs a year for 25 years, about 20 or so a week (once in the heyday of the '80s I repaired as many as 35 VCRs in a week) so been there, done that. I never did like Beta much except for the marginal picture quality on the early machines due to the use of a larger head drum which gave it horizontal resolution to about 270 lines compared to VHS at about 240 lines. Neither equaled NTSC broadcast TV at 330 lines. VHS HiFi and SVHS plus the mechanical simplicity of the VHS tape transport mechanism finally did Beta in.

So Sony had three liscencees, which still presents a problem against VHS numerous liscencees. Since NEC and Sanyo players were rebadged Sony players, you have made my point. Sony was not able to get other manufacturers to build in house designs using the companies own R and D money. something that helps drive the development of the product. VHS was able to do hence the mechanical simplicity.

[Ed_in_Tx]

So Sony had three liscencees, which still presents a problem against VHS numerous liscencees. Since NEC and Sanyo players were rebadged Sony players, you have made my point. You misunderstood. The NEC and Sanyo were made by NEC and Sanyo respectively, not rebadged Sonys like Zenith marketed.

Forgot another one - Toshiba built their own Beta machines too.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You misunderstood. The NEC and Sanyo were made by NEC and Sanyo respectively, not rebadged Sonys like Zenith marketed.

Forgot another one - Toshiba built their own Beta machines too.

Whether it is one liscensee or four, Sony still could not compete with the multitude of liscensees from the VHS side. NEC, Toshiba, and Sanyo may have been liscensees, but they did not bring anything new to the format unlike the manufacturers and liscensees on the VHS side. Toshiba did more for VHS than it ever did for Beta format.

[frahengeo]

Whether it is one liscensee or four, Sony still could not compete with the multitude of liscensees from the VHS side. NEC, Toshiba, and Sanyo may have been liscensees, but they did not bring anything new to the format unlike the manufacturers and liscensees on the VHS side. Toshiba did more for VHS than it ever did for Beta format.

Hmm. My recollection from my youth was that VHS offered longer recording times. One could actually fit a movie on a VHS tape (~ 2 hours), but with my Dad's Betamax, we couldn't. That factor alone would've swayed me to VHS.

My Buddy's Dad's VHS machine was a front loader too. Very cool at the time. Memories...

Getting off-topic, don't you think?

[jvc]

Did you notice in the article, where it said, "This same effect also applies to vertical viewing positions and angles, so don’t even think about mounting your LCD HDTV above the fireplace! Make sure that the center of the TV is close to your normal viewing eye level."

[pixelthis]

Hmm. My recollection from my youth was that VHS offered longer recording times. One could actually fit a movie on a VHS tape (~ 2 hours), but with my Dad's Betamax, we couldn't. That factor alone would've swayed me to VHS.

My Buddy's Dad's VHS machine was a front loader too. Very cool at the time. Memories...

Getting off-topic, don't you think?

The recording time was a major issue for most people.
The JAPANESE are a very stubborn people, and beleive in pride and honor.
Thats why we had to drop two A bombs on them, they dared us to repeat the feat.
And its been that way in every "format" war, its why Pioneer kept laserdisc alive all of those years.
Sad thing is Sony could have adressed all of its problems but refused,
insisting that their form factor was "perfect", letting ego get in the way until it was way too late.
So the inferiour format won.
Thats what I keep prattling on about on this site , economics will matter more in what you
get for your system than anything else, economies of scale are a huge factor in what
can be offered to the enthusiast:1:

[frahengeo]

The recording time was a major issue for most people.
The JAPANESE are a very stubborn people, and beleive in pride and honor.
Thats why we had to drop two A bombs on them, they dared us to repeat the feat.
And its been that way in every "format" war, its why Pioneer kept laserdisc alive all of those years.
Sad thing is Sony could have adressed all of its problems but refused,
insisting that their form factor was "perfect", letting ego get in the way until it was way too late.
So the inferiour format won.
Thats what I keep prattling on about on this site , economics will matter more in what you
get for your system than anything else, economies of scale are a huge factor in what
can be offered to the enthusiast:1:

Watching too many Samurai movies, perhaps?

The Japanese have been giving it back to us since by getting us to buy their Cars, Audio/Video gear. and best of all Playstation.

Focus Daniel-san!! Plasma still beats LCD.

[nightflier]

The JAPANESE are a very stubborn people, and beleive in pride and honor. Thats why we had to drop two A bombs on them, they dared us to repeat the feat.


...finds this more than a bit insulting.

By the way, they never "dared" us to repeat it. They were as shocked as we were at the absolute annihilation caused by a single bomb. We can debate ad infinitum whether we should or should not have dropped the bombs on civilians; and having several family members who survived the concentration camps, I can assure you that's not an easy question. But there's absolutely no reason to make light of it here. Japan is a very different country today than what it was under the dictatorship in WW2.

[RoadRunner6]

Japan might might be a different country but that old culture still runs deep. Calling the imperial reign of Hirohito and his military leadership a dictatorship is misleading. It is a convenient form of scapegoatism to imply that Hirohito was unware of or disapproved of the miiltary actions. The Japanese people were 100% behind him and the miltiary, My Japanese wife still recalls that her mother thought he was divine. She is still alive today. As a teenager she practiced with farm impliments to defend the country when the American devils would invade.

When I met my wife 13 years ago she still had the same opinion about the Japanese involement in WWII as almost all Japanese still hold. That is that America forced Japan to take legitimate action in attacking Pearl Harbor and America was in fact the agressor. Any mention to the Japanese of their treatment of enemy soldiers brings a response that this is just an ordinary part of war. They have no clue about the horrble attrocities commited by the Japanese military before and throughout the war. The racial descrimination that existed in the minds of the Japanese is still very previlant in Japan. It is very subtle now but they still consider themselves superior to other asians and foreigners. It is somewhat rare but I have seen restaurants and lounges with a prominate "Japanese Only" sign displayed at the front door. How long would the reverse last in the US?

My wife and most of the Japanese people still have no idea of the horrible actions of the Japanese military against America, China, Korea, the Philippines and other Asian countries. My wife had never heard of the Baatan Death March (which my cousin was in), that 40% of Amercan POW's died in Japanese POW camps (most of these deaths were the result of starvation or summary torture and execution....no we're not talking about water-boarding here), about the Nanking Massacre, that Japanese purposely shot and bayoneted American POW's so that their military doctors would have ginny pigs to practice on, and other facts that the Japanese would rather not remember or admit.

Unfortunately, many well intentined but historically uninformed Americans forget or are unaware of the truth and concentrate on the bombs. Anyone like me who has spent time out of the large cities in Japan would understand the extremely mountainous terrain of Japan. A long drawn out invasion, which in fact would have been necessary if not for the bombs, would have resulted in millions of civilian as well as military deaths. This is due to the stubborn cultural mindset of not only the Japanes mililary but also the civilain population. They had a never surrender and fight until the death mentality and only surrendered due to the ultimate shock of the bombs.

There are no gatherings in Japan to publicly lament the barbaric military actions of their country. There is no mention in their history books of their national guilt. The Japanese lose face if they admit to fault and never will. Our self-condemnation because of the bomb is an excercise you will never witness from the Japanese.

The dropping of the bombs, so abhorent an act in itself, was in fact an everlasting blessing in disguise. Millions of lives were in fact saved. I have grown to love my Japanese family, the Japanese people, and Japan and all its beauties. However, it is to the eternal discredit to Japan and their culture that they cannot admit that they were the guilty party in the war with America from Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We went on to occupy and peacefully stimulated the regrowth of Japan in the post war era.

America Banzai!

[pixelthis]

Well said, and its a part of Japanese culture (and other asian tigers as well)
to refuse to admit when they are wrong.
WHICH LEADS TO A LOT OF "FORMAT" WARS.:1:

[frahengeo]

Well said, and its a part of Japanese culture (and other asian tigers as well)
to refuse to admit when they are wrong.
WHICH LEADS TO A LOT OF "FORMAT" WARS.:1:

Hmm. 1) 8-track vs. cassette 2)Microsoft vs. Apple in the 80's - This eventually settled, but there was turmoil in its days. 3) DVD vs. DIVX, (represented by Circuit City and a bunch of lawyers from California). None of these examples can be blamed solely on the stubborn Japanese, if at all. Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, yes both Japanese, but because there was no American participation. Plus you can't blame anyone for not backing down. After all there was a lot at stake for the involved parties in terms of initial investment and future revenue. Call it stubborn, if you like. I call it "protecting your investment"

Besides, format wars can be good. It promotes competition between companies, which is always good for the consumer. Let the majority decide what features, performances, prices and logos they like.

Also, where would we be without the stubborn Japanese. Well, you wouldn't have the gear that you have today. But then again, maybe you would be okay with that.

I'm not Japanse nor am I promoting the Japanese. Sure. They've done some bad things, but so have we (the Americans). For now, lets try and enjoy the gadgets that they've invented.

One more time. Plasma is better than LCD!!!

[Feanor]

...

The dropping of the bombs, so abhorent an act in itself, was in fact an everlasting blessing in disguise. Millions of lives were in fact saved. I have grown to love my Japanese family, the Japanese people, and Japan and all its beauties. However, it is to the eternal discredit to Japan and their culture that they cannot admit that they were the guilty party in the war with America from Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We went on to occupy and peacefully stimulated the regrowth of Japan in the post war era.

America Banzai!

No, dropping the bombs was not abhorent. It was a rational choice which, (as you have already agreed), saved the lives of millions of Japanese as well as Americans.

The denial of guilt by the government and people of Japan is contempatble and cowardly -- and was not necessarily inevidable. Contrast it with the flagellant attitude of the Germany government and the majority of Germans for their role in WWII.

[emaidel]

Good Lord, what a strange direction this thread has taken! RoadRunner's post was outstanding in its informative, truthful manner, and one I feel honored to have been able to read.

I do still have certain reservations about the Japanese "business as war" mentality that was so prevalent throughout the 70's and 80's, especially in the electronics industry. Having worked for a Japanese company (Onkyo), and having worked for other companies whose products were manufactured in Japan, I quickly came to realize that "honor" meant absoslutely nothing to the Japanese, especially when it came to dealing with American businessmen. I also found it quite true that the Japanese simply refused to ever accept fault, and just about always blamed the poor sales, resulting from some of their blunders, entirely on the American sales force.

Americans, especially those in key sales positions in this industry for Japanese companies, were regarded as "expendable commodities." Once market penetration was established, and the product's name was now on the tip of most consumer's tongues,, all thanks to the efforts of the American sales managers, VP's, etc., such people were summarily fired by the Japanese, and given pathetic, or no, severance packages.

Such treatment wouldn't be tolerated today, with "wrongful dismissal" lawsuits filed repeatedly against these companies, but that just wasn't done back in the 70's and 80's, and the Japanese companies basically got away with murder.

A perfect exmaple of Japanese bias in business is brilliantly outlined in Michael Crichton's book (NOT the movie) "Rising Sun."

[nightflier]

Sorry fellas, but that doesn't wash. I have seen the fingernails of my uncle where the Japanese stuck specially manufactured needles, just as I have seen the ears that were burned off of my other uncle by the SS in Belgium. I have other family members who were active in Indonesia and Holland during the war who can tell you stories to make even Pol Pot blush. I have also read about and seen pictures of the medieval atrocities on the people of China, Mongolia, Indonesia, The Philippines, Burma, etc. Well, my uncles are no longer alive, but if they were still here, they would both have advocated dropping another bomb on both Berlin and Tokyo. And for all it's justifications, that is still spoken in anger.

I also have a good friend who is Japanese, who is a little older than I am. He is also disabled, so during the war he was considered a blemish on his country and he too can tell you heart-rendering stories about the abuses of the military dictatorship of the time: the secret service visits, the complete control of all information, and the way he had to live with the animals in the barn. While he will not deny the strong sense of pride that his countrymen have, they also have a very deep understanding about the meaning of society and that what happens to one happens to all. This is something we as Americans can probably learn a lot from. He will also tell you that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was like a kick in the gut to every Japanese person, even for himself, despite the anger he bore towards his government. And it did not matter whether these were civilians or military people that were incinerated by the thousands. The thought that the Americans could repeat this was what ended the war.

The simple question remains: why did the Americans not use the bombs on military targets? Sure the Japanese military might have had more opportunity to cover that up, but something of such magnitude isn't so easy to hide. Many historians will argue that the result (total capitulation and the abdication of the emperor) would have ensued. Well, we'll never really know, but to say that the Japanese asked for more after Nagasaki, is completely false. Then to follow that up by suggesting that this is somehow exemplary of the format wars is even more ridiculous. And all this on the anniversary of the bombings? A little cold, no?

Now I know some of us are veterans and ex-military and maybe were even stationed in Japan and have formed opinions about that time, but the Japan of WW2 is not the Japan of today. Not only is this history trickling into the textbooks there (as it has in Germany), but the younger generation knows a whole lot more than their elders about it. Millions of Japanese also live outside of Japan, in places where the history is more complete. It's going to take some time, but it is changing. In my opinion Pix went too far. His conclusions are wild stretches, misguided and insensitive, especially during the anniversary of these attacks.

And yes, as an American, I'm also not so proud of what we've done to peoples all over the world and in our own country. I can remember a few anecdotes that I learned in college because my high-school history books had no mention of them: the Trail of Tears, Rosewood, the extermination of 1/4 of the male Philippino population, and the more recent odium like the furnishing of both Iraq and Iran with Chemical weapons during their gruesome war with each other, as well as what is now coming to light about the medieval treatment of enemy combatants - the pictures from Abu Graib are the rated G version, apparently. No wonder even Obama wants to keep this secret. So let's not start casting stones. American business practices aren't exactly the exemplar for civilization either: everything from the Pinkerton union busting to the human rights abuses of our oil, diamond, agriculture and chemical manufacturers around the globe is at the very least cause for some reflection.

No. Japan is no saint, but who really is?

[BallinWithNash]

i was expecting more of an explosion from pixy :sad:

[pixelthis]

i was expecting more of an explosion from pixy :sad:

Concering what?
The dvd WAR THAT two camps had before teh launch of that format makes the DIVIX
skrimish pale in comparison.
AND we bombed two cities because of their statregic importance, and besides ,
making an entire city disapear instead of just a base is a lot more impressive.
I havent been posting for the last few days, got a new computer, so now I can rile people
a lot faster.:1:

[Tmankiller72]

SHUSHHHHHH.
We don't want all of those plasma owners to get upset, now do we?
If they found out that they own a dying format, and that most think that looking
at a plasma screen is like looking into a clothes washer while its running, the poor dears
might get a tad upset.
Just let them watch their dim glossy screens, sucking their thumbs and comforted
by the glow of phosper, reminding them of days when they watched howdey
Doody while eating their corn flakes, and the world was a simpler place.
Poor dears are in such denial , we wouldnt want to cause any psychotic breaks, hum?:1:
Ummm, I own a Vizio 47 xvt LCD 1080p ..blah,blah blah ..and I also own a Panny 58" plasma that is "only" 768p ..and I hate to burst your liquid crystal but the larger and "less resolution" plasma looks ..MUCH better than the lcd. Sorry but I can do a comparison using the same Direct TV HD feed and use the same channel and use the same blu-ray demos and the plasma beats the lcd everytime. If I had the extra cash I would grab one of those truly dying breed Pioneer Elite 60" plasmas which I do believe is the display of the year for the last what 3 or 4 years on just about every review out there.

[Tmankiller72]

I guess that's why all the manufacturers are abandoning plasma?
LCD is cheaper to make due to the various screen sizes and multiple manufacturers of panels. Lets see you can make plasmas from about 42" to 65" or you can make lcd's from 5" to 65" it's an easy business decision. Plus with the led backlighting it can be labeled as much more energy efficient. ......But come on you can't tell me that the top of the line Pioneer and Panny plasmas are inferior in PQ to any lcd even the new Samsung LED lit ones. Seriously if you can't see that the Elite just crushes the lcd's you must be color blind or just technology blind.

[pixelthis]

LCD is cheaper to make due to the various screen sizes and multiple manufacturers of panels. Lets see you can make plasmas from about 42" to 65" or you can make lcd's from 5" to 65" it's an easy business decision. Plus with the led backlighting it can be labeled as much more energy efficient. ......But come on you can't tell me that the top of the line Pioneer and Panny plasmas are inferior in PQ to any lcd even the new Samsung LED lit ones. Seriously if you can't see that the Elite just crushes the lcd's you must be color blind or just technology blind.

Give me a break.
The elite is a megabuck tv, are you seriously comparing it to a thousand dollar VIZIO?
As for the LED TV sets out there , they knock the socks off of plasma, conventional
LCD, you name it.
PQ is such a personal thing, you think plasma is "better" because it is phosper
based, like the CRT that you have watched all of your life.
You think its "better" because it "looks" more like what you think a TV set should
"look" like, but that is really just your opinion..:1:

[BallinWithNash]

concerning the plasma vs. LCD (LCD beats plasma!) and thank you pixie that is much better haha:lol:

[nightflier]

Give me a break.
The elite is a megabuck tv, are you seriously comparing it to a thousand dollar VIZIO

If there is a megabuck LCD set out there, it still would not compare to that megabuck plasma. The fact is there aren't any real picture improvements once you go up in price on the LCD side. Sure, there are lots of fancy numbers, but the picture still looks like LCD to the eye. It's sort of like comparing a fluorescent lightbulb to an incandescent one, for all its technological backwardness, the incandescent bulb is much more pleasant on the eyes. Other examples I can think of that make the same point: digital vs. analog, solid state vs. tubes, and the list goes on. No matter how much more modern, energy efficient, crisper, brighter, whatever it is, in the end we always go back to what's more pleasing.

And not to drive the silver stake in all the way, here, but on the lower end of the price range, plasma unconditionally beats LCD on picture quality. Panasonic's line of budget plasma TVs are consistently more pleasant to watch than comparably priced LCDs. Again, this is because that crisp brightness and overly sharp image you see in the store in only impressive there. Once you spend some time watching both sets, your eyes almost always gravitate back to the more relaxing, less intense picture so that you can focus on the content rather than the delivery system.

If plasma does go away because of market pressure, it will be another superior format that was killed off for the sake of a bigger profit-margin. In the end, it's the consumers who loose out.

By the way, I bought a "budget" plasma set and have not looked back. It has better picture quality than any LCD I considered, and guess what, it's not an energy hog either and beats many LCDs of the same size on energy consumption, imagine that!

[pixelthis]

If there is a megabuck LCD set out there, it still would not compare to that megabuck plasma. The fact is there aren't any real picture improvements once you go up in price on the LCD side. Sure, there are lots of fancy numbers, but the picture still looks like LCD to the eye. It's sort of like comparing a fluorescent lightbulb to an incandescent one, for all its technological backwardness, the incandescent bulb is much more pleasant on the eyes. Other examples I can think of that make the same point: digital vs. analog, solid state vs. tubes, and the list goes on. No matter how much more modern, energy efficient, crisper, brighter, whatever it is, in the end we always go back to what's more pleasing.

And not to drive the silver stake in all the way, here, but on the lower end of the price range, plasma unconditionally beats LCD on picture quality. Panasonic's line of budget plasma TVs are consistently more pleasant to watch than comparably priced LCDs. Again, this is because that crisp brightness and overly sharp image you see in the store in only impressive there. Once you spend some time watching both sets, your eyes almost always gravitate back to the more relaxing, less intense picture so that you can focus on the content rather than the delivery system.

If plasma does go away because of market pressure, it will be another superior format that was killed off for the sake of a bigger profit-margin. In the end, it's the consumers who loose out.

By the way, I bought a "budget" plasma set and have not looked back. It has better picture quality than any LCD I considered, and guess what, it's not an energy hog either and beats many LCDs of the same size on energy consumption, imagine that!

Have you seen a LCD with the new LED backlight?
Go take a look and then kick yourself in the butt.:1:

[nightflier]

I have and it still doesn't compare to a good plasma. When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

[pixelthis]

concerning the plasma vs. LCD (LCD beats plasma!) and thank you pixie that is much better haha:lol:

Always a crowd pleaser, thats me.
You will never get the plasma crowd to quit suckin their thumbs and grabbing their security
blankeys for dear life, they love the way a phosper screen plasma set resembles the
tube" sets they grew up with and they will never let it go , will hang onto it as long as they can.
Probably most will suffer a psychotic break when they can't buy anything with a phosper
screen anymore.:1:

[pixelthis]

I have and it still doesn't compare to a good plasma. When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

Recently, and still have two of em, when was the last time you had your taste
checked?:1:

[pixelthis]

This is much more fun, mixing it up in real time instead of posting at 4:00 in the morning.
something good to this unemployment thing after all.:1:

[nightflier]

I'm only asking because you seem to be the only one here convinced that LCD looks better and it doesn't.

It really doesn't.

Really.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Are we talking about sets right outta da box, or are we talking calibrated units? My PQ on my LCD was raised considerably after calibration.

[pixelthis]

Are we talking about sets right outta da box, or are we talking calibrated units? My PQ on my LCD was raised considerably after calibration.

LCD haters are talking about LCD straight outta the box VS perfectly calibrated
plasmas.
The thing I like about LCD is the clear sharp picture.
The thing plasma fanboys love is the same thing they loved about CRT, they think the fuzzy
dim, phosper created picture is somehow "filmlike".
LCD also has room for growth, since there is a limit to how small you can make a phosper
dot before the light output is too dim, its pretty much at the end as far as what you can do with the format.
The only reason a "plasma" is a plasma is because a medium is needed to transmit the electrons to the phospers, we dont have the tech to build a thin vaccume tube.
In other words the plasma tube is basically a thin CRT, WHICH is why the claims
oif a thirty year life are rediculous, ever seen a 30 year old CRT that works?
Makes sense as to why plasma fanboys are former CRT fanboys tho, they are transmitting their taste to a new format that looks pretty much like the old, without the black level. At least they are consistent.
We are just going to disagree on this one tho, no way to convince the horse riders that an auto is better.
But that doesnt change the fact that plasma is destined to a place in the attic next to the eight track tape player. Life goes on, and in ten years both LCD and PLASMA
will be gone, replaced by OLED.:1:

[BadAssJazz]

Really, it's not that serious. If plasma is facing manufacturer-induced extinction, so be it. I will adapt and move on, as will we all.

[pixelthis]

Really, it's not that serious. If plasma is facing manufacturer-induced extinction, so be it. I will adapt and move on, as will we all.

No brand faces "manufacturer " extinction.
Someone will offer anything in a free market that offers a tidy profit.
This is truly a democracy of the market, consumers vote with their dollars,
and its they that decide thumbs up or down for a product.
Which is currently whats happening with plasma.
Which is what I can't understand, if its got this "great" picture and all then why is it
getting its butt resoundly kicked in the one place it matters... market acceptance?:1:

[GMichael]

No brand faces "manufacturer " extinction.
Someone will offer anything in a free market that offers a tidy profit.
This is truly a democracy of the market, consumers vote with their dollars,
and its they that decide thumbs up or down for a product.
Which is currently whats happening with plasma.
Which is what I can't understand, if its got this "great" picture and all then why is it
getting its butt resoundly kicked in the one place it matters... market acceptance?:1:

Same reason that Bose outsells everyone in the audio world. Consumers don't always know what's best for them.

LCD has a lot to offer. They are much easier to work with, cheaper to make, brighter, less glare, etc. But to ignore the fact that plasma has a better picture is turning a blind eye to something you just don't want to see. It's still there even if your head is buried in the sand. Funny thing about facts. They remain true, even if you don't believe in them.

PS,

Sorry to read about the job thing. Hope you find something soon.

[frahengeo]

No brand faces "manufacturer " extinction.
Someone will offer anything in a free market that offers a tidy profit.
This is truly a democracy of the market, consumers vote with their dollars,
and its they that decide thumbs up or down for a product.
Which is currently whats happening with plasma.
Which is what I can't understand, if its got this "great" picture and all then why is it
getting its butt resoundly kicked in the one place it matters... market acceptance?:1:

For the average consumer, 1080P is 1080P and the deepest black and contrast ratio means very little. Also, plasma TVs are perceived as being too expensive still. So why not get a more inexpensive 1080P LCD TV.
Plus my local Hi-Fi stores were pushing Pioneer Elite Kuro as the best TV to get (I have to agree), but I wasn't willing to pay the asking price at the time.
Average consumers want a decent picture for a decent price, and not the best picture at a premium price. Same for audio. The so-called ultra highend will never receive mass acceptance, but I think you know this...

Right now, I'm waiting for the LEDs to come down in price.

[pixelthis]

Same reason that Bose outsells everyone in the audio world. Consumers don't always know what's best for them.

LCD has a lot to offer. They are much easier to work with, cheaper to make, brighter, less glare, etc. But to ignore the fact that plasma has a better picture is turning a blind eye to something you just don't want to see. It's still there even if your head is buried in the sand. Funny thing about facts. They remain true, even if you don't believe in them.

PS,

Sorry to read about the job thing. Hope you find something soon.

Thanks.
Actually its the first time I have been outta work in 29 years, thanks to Knight riders
buddy Obama my corba insurance is 35% and my penny check is 20 weeks to a year.
Best Buy is coming to town, maybe they could use somebody...:1:


(no jokes about my "lack" of knowledge, please)

[3db]

Looks like Plasma sales are on the rise;

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58047


I ended up buying a Vizio SV470M and its a good display. Does it come close to the performance of a Plasma set? No way. If I ahd the money I would have gone for a Panasonic Plasma which was $500 more for the equivalent screen size.

Plasma just does a much better job with motion and black detail than a LCD. I just couldn't convince my betetr half that its worth the premium over the LCD.

[GMichael]

Looks like Plasma sales are on the rise;

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58047


I ended up buying a Vizio SV470M and its a good display. Does it come close to the performance of a Plasma set? No way. If I ahd the money I would have gone for a Panasonic Plasma which was $500 more for the equivalent screen size.

Plasma just does a much better job with motion and black detail than a LCD. I just couldn't convince my betetr half that its worth the premium over the LCD.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it for many years. Best or not, LCD has a very good picture.

[3db]

I'm sure you'll enjoy it for many years. Best or not, LCD has a very good picture.

Thanks GMichael. I do enjoy it way better than the 32" non progressive scan TV its replaced in my home theater.

[GMichael]

Thanks GMichael. I do enjoy it way better than the 32" non progressive scan TV its replaced in my home theater.
I have one of those. Mine is an Apex special that I picked up for $300, 6 years ago. It does duty in the pool room now.

The whole LCD vs plasma thing seems silly to me. Both work fine. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It just makes sense to pick the one that fits your needs and not worry about which "is best." If you work in a studio and need to see everything as detailed as possible, go plasma (or CRT). If you are Joe Average and want to just flick the switch without worrying about closing the drapes, go LCD.

[Johnny B. Galt]

I think plasma sales are up because prices are down. Although I'm about five months away from my next HDTV purchase, I keep an eye on them. I'm amazed at the price erosion!
I'm not sure what I want for my basement- right now leaning towards either the Panasonic G series 50" plasma or possibly a 46" (or 47" in the case of the LG) LCD. I'm hoping that there is a real breaktrhrough with LCD (there have been- my current sets are 60HZ and 720p) but it seems like the 240hz is kind of a gimmic and the good LED is still relatively expensive.
I've seen the price on the Panny come down by over a third to $1300 which makes it very compelling- even if it sits unopened for six months! I'm just curious what the Christmas season will bring.for pirces. I'm not optimistic about the US economy and believe that retailers are going to be lucky to be operating on razor-thin margins. Not great for anybody but it may mean I end up with even more TV than I originally planned for- LCD or plasma...

[nightflier]

Anything at Costco worth considering this fall? I bought my Plasma there and feature-for-feature it was the best deal in town - no other place came close.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think plasma sales are up because prices are down. Although I'm about five months away from my next HDTV purchase, I keep an eye on them. I'm amazed at the price erosion!
I'm not sure what I want for my basement- right now leaning towards either the Panasonic G series 50" plasma or possibly a 46" (or 47" in the case of the LG) LCD. I'm hoping that there is a real breaktrhrough with LCD (there have been- my current sets are 60HZ and 720p) but it seems like the 240hz is kind of a gimmic and the good LED is still relatively expensive.
I've seen the price on the Panny come down by over a third to $1300 which makes it very compelling- even if it sits unopened for six months! I'm just curious what the Christmas season will bring.for pirces. I'm not optimistic about the US economy and believe that retailers are going to be lucky to be operating on razor-thin margins. Not great for anybody but it may mean I end up with even more TV than I originally planned for- LCD or plasma...

240hz is by no means a gimmick. My Sony LED based XBRpro has the ability to operate at 60hz, 120hz, and 240hz. It can also take that 240hz refresh rate and utilize a quick flash LED scanning backlight to create psuedo 480hz performance. The difference between 60hz and 120hz is dramatic. Click up to 240hz, and the difference is much more subtle, but very noticeable. It really depends on how it is done. Some manufacturers fake it by using the 120hz refresh rate and a scanning backlight flashing 120 times a second. This causes a reduction in panel brightness. Only Sony and Samsung do it correctly, and you can tell by how film like and how truely smooth the picture looks.

I think you are mistake refresh rates with the processing designed to remove judder. They are not the same processes.

[Brainstorm]

I find LCD flat screens image milky and washed out of definition!

When viewing my LCD video projector I keep scratching my head why does the image look so great over my friends naff looking Samsungs 42”.

I’ve tried to improve the image on it as it had some naff digital filter turned ON that placed some noise artefact on the screen when watching Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

This was at the opening where young Indy is running across the tops of the train carriages and there are some Giraffes heads sticking out of one of the carriages. between the heads there is strange like digital noise wired?

I found the switch and turned it OFF! It would seem LCD TV sucks plain and simple first impressions is what makes it count and I personally wouldn’t touch one not even if it was given to me for free!

[Brainstorm]

How long till the Pixy bomb blows?

LOL T-minis 60 and counting! LOL

[Ed_in_Tx]

I find LCD flat screens image milky and washed out of definition!

...It would seem LCD TV sucks plain and simple first impressions is what makes it count and I personally wouldn’t touch one not even if it was given to me for free!


Obviously you have not seen one properly set up or maybe you are basing that on 5 year old technology. The LCD set I own ( a last year's Sony model) looks excellent in contrast, black levels, color and image motion. And, I am pretty particular about those things, having worked in the TV-Video consumer and professional service trades for 30 years.

[02audionoob]

The problem I've preceived (right or wrong) with LCD is an odd unrealistic quality about the picture. It lacks the nuance of colors that make up reality. CRT technology seems to illustrate shape and tone better. LCD images of a person in front of trees, for example, looks like a 2-dimensional cut-out of a person floating in front of a 2-dimensional backdrop. Anyone else see it that way?

[3db]

Anything at Costco worth considering this fall? I bought my Plasma there and feature-for-feature it was the best deal in town - no other place came close.

Thats where I bought my Vizio LCD..at Costco and it was as good or better than the other LCD sets out there which included Samsung, and Sony. They have the Panasonic Vierras plasmas out but they were beyond my budget.

I have to say that I'm very pleased with my Vizio watching upconverted standard def DVDs. Colours are very accurate and the detail is great. I do notice that balc resolution is a little weak but not distratcing so.

My next purchase will be a Blu-ray DVD player.

[nightflier]

If Costco were to resell Oppo blue-ray players, they would sell out before the free samples were all handed out, LOL.

[recoveryone]

I just ordered the Vizio VF550M from Dell for $1368. I was about to pull the trigger on a Sharp Aquos 52" D64/65 model series, but I read too many reviews about the screen issue (blocking). I hope this Vizio preformers as well if not better than the first one I purchased 3 years ago (32").

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The problem I've preceived (right or wrong) with LCD is an odd unrealistic quality about the picture. It lacks the nuance of colors that make up reality. CRT technology seems to illustrate shape and tone better. LCD images of a person in front of trees, for example, looks like a 2-dimensional cut-out of a person floating in front of a 2-dimensional backdrop. Anyone else see it that way?

I have always thought of LCD panels much the same way. But that was the old 60hz panels of which I thought were artificially sharpened, and made film look like video. My opinion changed dramatically when I got this Sony XBRpro monitor I am testing out for the studio i work for. I have always thought that Pioneers Kuro's had a picture that resembled a CRT, especially the last version produced which is the one I purchased. This Kuro's had all of the characterstics I enjoy on my high end Sony projector, and my custom 1080p CRT based RPTV. But everything has changed with this Sony. I have yet to find any weakness on this monitor. I have run this through every proprietary test my studio has produced, the Silicon Optix calibration disc, Spears and Munsil test disc, and Qdeo test disc. None of these disc seem to be able the trip this monitor up. Black levels are comparable to CRT, and the color gamut is the same, and can be made even wider than most CRT's. The problem is, it takes $22,000 to get this technology to this point, and that is a real problem. It's a good thing this monitor is not being marketed to consumers or they wouldn't sell many panels.

[Woochifer]

Anything at Costco worth considering this fall? I bought my Plasma there and feature-for-feature it was the best deal in town - no other place came close.

Coming in a bit late to the party, but the current Panny coupon special at Costco is quite a doozy. The entry level 1080p 54" plasma is going for $1,200 ($300 off). Free shipping if ordered online.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11489109&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-US

Last month, they had a coupon deal on the Panny 1080p 50" for $1,000 (basically an improved version of my TV, which cost $1,400 last year). I also saw that Amazon was offering up the entry level 42" 768p model for less than $600.

Concurrently, they've also expanded their higher line offerings. The V10 series is currently CNET's highest rated HDTV.

[Woochifer]

I have always thought of LCD panels much the same way. But that was the old 60hz panels of which I thought were artificially sharpened, and made film look like video.

I think that the 120 Hz and 240 Hz models with the motion interpolation switched on look even worse. They smooth out the motion, but make everything look like a soap opera set.


My opinion changed dramatically when I got this Sony XBRpro monitor I am testing out for the studio i work for. I have always thought that Pioneers Kuro's had a picture that resembled a CRT, especially the last version produced which is the one I purchased. This Kuro's had all of the characterstics I enjoy on my high end Sony projector, and my custom 1080p CRT based RPTV. But everything has changed with this Sony. I have yet to find any weakness on this monitor. I have run this through every proprietary test my studio has produced, the Silicon Optix calibration disc, Spears and Munsil test disc, and Qdeo test disc. None of these disc seem to be able the trip this monitor up. Black levels are comparable to CRT, and the color gamut is the same, and can be made even wider than most CRT's. The problem is, it takes $22,000 to get this technology to this point, and that is a real problem. It's a good thing this monitor is not being marketed to consumers or they wouldn't sell many panels.

Good to see that Sony has produced a LCD monitor that can finally match up with the best that other display techs offer up. But, LCDs seem to all have a major tradeoff of some kind, and in this case it's the price. Isn't $22k like double what those studio-grade Kuros cost? I'd also be curious as to whether the off-axis viewing has improved. No matter how much LCDs have improved on other fronts, this is the issue that has remained constant. And it seems that the introduction of LED backlighting made the viewing angle even narrower.

[Woochifer]

240hz is by no means a gimmick. My Sony LED based XBRpro has the ability to operate at 60hz, 120hz, and 240hz. It can also take that 240hz refresh rate and utilize a quick flash LED scanning backlight to create psuedo 480hz performance. The difference between 60hz and 120hz is dramatic. Click up to 240hz, and the difference is much more subtle, but very noticeable. It really depends on how it is done. Some manufacturers fake it by using the 120hz refresh rate and a scanning backlight flashing 120 times a second. This causes a reduction in panel brightness. Only Sony and Samsung do it correctly, and you can tell by how film like and how truely smooth the picture looks.

And there's the rub. Sony and Samsung are the only manufacturers doing the 240 Hz refresh correctly. Everybody else is using 240 Hz simply as a marketing gimmick, and promoting a feature that actually negates LCD's most clearcut advantage by reducing the maximum light output. I read that 240 Hz refresh currently requires two separate video processors to implement correctly (basically two chips alternating at 120 Hz each), and that incurs extra expense. I would expect that this would be corrected by next year, but for now it's buyer beware.