Will SACD make vinyl obsolete?

[poneal]

Any comments?

[Tarheel_]

I can't speak for vinyl (see my other post) but I can say as a recent (xmas) owner of a sacd player it is superior to CD. The digital brightness is removed, but now includes more detail, a wider soundstage and more precise imaging (on my system).

[Beckman]

I hope so. The market would be flooded by used vinyl for cheap.

I for one don't plan on buying an SACD or DVD-audio player until I get my $40,000 worth of student loans payed off.

[Geoffcin]

Any comments?

Vinyl was obsolete in an ergonomic sense the day they released CD's.

Sonically the debate goes on.

There is no doubt in my mind that DVD-Audio, and SACD will eventually provide the closest approximation of recorded sound available to consumers. Will that make vinyl any more obsolete now than it already is? Who knows.

One thing is for sure. They will keep pressing vinyl until people stop playing it. And my guess is that it will be a long time.

[jbangelfish]

You'd have to convince a lot of people, myself included, that SACD is actually superior to vinyl in all ways. I still would not get rid of my vinyl collection of some 4000 plus LP's even though I have made the comment that I would. It's just too much good music for me to replace in my lifetime. I would certainly welcome any CD format that truly has better sound, I just haven't heard it yet.
Most of the vinyl crowd who have heard SACD will say that it's better than RBCD and getting close to vinyl, not quite there, but easy enough on the ears to listen to. Not really a rave review. It will be interesting to see what happens but I will never get rid of my vinyl collection. Many chose to do so when CD's came out (and many regretted doing so) but I already had too much vinyl to replace with CD. When I did buy CD reprints of old vinyl, they were terrible and I'd rather hear an old scratched album which I hate.
Pristine vinyl has the ability to stun and amaze the listener. CD and SACD also has the ability but does so only on rare occaision. If they did it right all of the time, I wouldn't be looking for vinyl. I still buy vinyl often and I very rarely regret it. There is a big comeback in vinyl that is going on with more turntables available maybe than there ever was. There is also a lot of vinyl being released by both new and old artists. The reason is simple, people who buy it and enjoy it have still never heard better. We might be a relatively small group in the big picture but a large enough group to keep it going or it would be gone already. I am thankful that it's still here and doing well.
Bill

[spacedeckman]

to double blind testing, and so must just be taken as casual observations and not given the weight of actual scientific data to be used to prove a case in a court of law or scientific journal. It represents my humble opinion which will range in the readers perspective to vary from Gospel to heresy. So let it be.
(Legal Disclaimer)

SACD and DVD-A are new formats. It has taken 20 years to get CD right, and it still isn't cheap, and we are still learning. Figuring learning curve and all that, we are looking at about 5 years or so, things could get interesting. That said, SACD and DVD-A will become a fact of life within that timeframe whether you like it or not. It all has to do with licensing money. Follow the cash flow.

SACD vs Vinyl. I've spent a few hours on this. With nice analog setups and very nice SACD players. I consistently like the LPs better, but always have something complimentary to say about the SACD. That doesn't happen with CD with a VERY nice CD player.

Add to that, many of the old rock albums that were transferred to CD were done horribly. I can't listen to old Pink Floyd on CD. Even the remasters aren't very good. The vinyl I can play all day. That is another consideration that gets overlooked.

Then, I've never had someone pick CD (very nice Arcam CD72) over my Analog rig. I've had some try to argue that I had it backwards...until I pulled the CD out of the drawer.

And that's how it works in my life.

[skeptic]

There is an undeniable hypnotic magic to watching the black disc spinning round at about one revolution every two seconds while a tonearm and cartridge visibly follow all of the wiggles and undulations of the grooves. Especially when the equipment is as visually pleasing as my Empires. The experience of playing a cd is comparatively sterile with the disc hidden in a drawer in a black box with a digital display counting up or down the seconds and minutes.

The people who invented the cd should have spent a little more time on the esthetics of playing a cd instead of spending all of it eliminating wow, flutter, rumble, acoustic feedback, noise, hum, distortion, interchannel crosstalk, limited dynamic range, and frequency response irregularities. Until they do, there will always be a market for vinyl.

[Geoffcin]

There is an undeniable hypnotic magic to watching the black disc spinning round at about one revolution every two seconds while a tonearm and cartridge visibly follow all of the wiggles and undulations of the grooves. Especially when the equipment is as visually pleasing as my Empires. The experience of playing a cd is comparatively sterile with the disc hidden in a drawer in a black box with a digital display counting up or down the seconds and minutes.

The people who invented the cd should have spent a little more time on the esthetics of playing a cd instead of spending all of it eliminating wow, flutter, rumble, acoustic feedback, noise, hum, distortion, interchannel crosstalk, limited dynamic range, and frequency response irregularities. Until they do, there will always be a market for vinyl.

Try the Shanling CD player. One of the most visually arresting CD players, and tubed to boot.

[jbangelfish]

While I do admire a good looking or unusual looking turntable, it has absolutely nothing to do with my desire to listen to vinyl. When I have a serious listening session, I turn off the lights and usually even close my eyes. What my turntable is doing or what it looks like is the furthest thing from my mind. It's very high in a cabinet anyway and I can only see it by standing up, don't have to bend over to do the tedious labor of love like lifting the arm, cleaning the LP, etc.
I don't do these things for any reason other than the total enjoyment that I get from the sound. LP's are a pain in the arse as anyone who has them will tell you and you know it as well. You and I listen to the same speakers (although you have yours modified), I use quite a bit more power with 385wpc 4 ohm but your amp seems to drive your AR9's to your satisfaction. Our findings in LP and CD are just completely different. I will keep searching for great sounding CD's and I'll let you know when I find them.
Did you see my post elsewhere about the Tori Amos album, Under the Pink? I asked you to try it and tell me what you think of it. The version that I have is actually on pink vinyl and the sound quality is outstanding. I am offering for you to buy the CD version (or even the vinyl) and if you don't like it, I'll buy it from you. It's safe to say that you would not like every song but I'm sure that you would enjoy many of them. I listened to it and the piano and other strings sounded as natural and real as I've ever heard. Some of the songs get off to a funky start but give them a chance and many develop into beautiful music and many others are just beautiful all the way through. Play it loud and you'll enjoy some great dynamics that you like to refer to with classical music. This girl plays piano as well as anybody, has a great voice and she actually writes this stuff. Will you give it a try?
Bill

[DMK]

While I do admire a good looking or unusual looking turntable, it has absolutely nothing to do with my desire to listen to vinyl. When I have a serious listening session, I turn off the lights and usually even close my eyes. What my turntable is doing or what it looks like is the furthest thing from my mind. It's very high in a cabinet anyway and I can only see it by standing up, don't have to bend over to do the tedious labor of love like lifting the arm, cleaning the LP, etc.
Bill

I'm with you. It's true that bias can enter into the equation when one sees what piece of gear is playing. I think the biggest myth in audio occurs when someone reads specs and becomes enamored of them, thereby becoming biased into thinking superior specs mean superior sound. CD's just can't compete sonically so measurements are pulled out as a defense mechanism.

SACD will likely not replace the LP but it just might put the CD where it belongs - into extinction. It is clearly superior to RBCD and competes well with vinyl, even besting it in some key areas. But I have yet to hear anything short of a master tape that sounds as much like live music as the two 45 RPM LP's I own. Sadly, they are expensive and only worth it (to me) as representations of the superiority of vinyl. I don't care to spend $50 per disc even if it does sound at least twice as good as a CD. Regular vinyl at $10-12 a pop is still superior to RBCD and the ability to buy used LP's for a buck or two makes the process even more enjoyable.

[hifitommy]

While I do admire a good looking or unusual looking turntable, it has absolutely nothing to do with my desire to listen to vinyl.

its what comes out of the speakers that interests me. if i were so financially endowed, i would buy the BUTT UGLY walker proscenium tt for $29k! i have a mapleknoll athena (same lineage) in need of a nice quiet air supply and a couple of minor fixes and adjustments and i will say THIS: it is VIVID and it was the bottom of the line.

air bearing platter and air bearing linear arm. if youve looked at my profile, youll know i have adequate substitutes for now but i DO miss the sound of the athena. ergonomically its a bit difficult but some things are worth the inconveniences. a project for the future, too many more pressing issues.

i will be getting the tori and yoshimi discs from circuitcity.com (no shipping charge) for cheeeeep. go to the tori disc, click on other formats and wallawallawashington there they are! its where i got white stripes-elephant for cheep on vinyl.

bangle-be glad the hiss is there on the virgil fox cd. at least the original recording isnt a lo bit digital mess. i have a 1972 denon LP of pictures with fremeaux conducting and the digital grain is horrible. this is a worst case scenario but just be glad the original is analog to begin with. and you wouldnt want to filter out the hiss, they used to try that with 'no-noise' and it removed some of the highs of the music along with the hiss. the ear/brain filters out such steady state noise quite handily.

feanor-" With it I have a Grace 707 tonearm which needs a minor repair; one of the four leads to the cartridge connecting pins is fell off and is missing. " yes, this is a relatively easy fix. if you have no other source, a universal headshell, usually available for about ten bucks at sam ash has the necessary replacement leads. you could have a service tech snip the clips off one end of the wires and strip them. remove the old leads and resolder the ones from the headshell.

i recently had this done to a 707 for a friend, it was my actual old 707 that once owned, STILL a fine tonearm. the ERA tt is also a vg unit, definitely worth the fix. for a cartridge, an at440ML or shure m97xe (both around a hundred) will give you VERY satisfactory service for not a lot of cash.

the 707 is very straightforward to set up. once balanced, the height is easily set with the skinny fluted thumbscrew (dont use a screwdriver to overtighten this one). in the collar is a conventional setscrew to use for actual tightening.

before this final tightening is done, adjust the base with the cueing lever on it rotationally so the cueing lever sets in the proper place for cueing adjust the arm height so the arm is about level when the stylus rests on the vinyl. THEN tighten the setscrew.

if this all sounds complicated, you can call me and i will talk you through it. it just takes some patience for the learning curve. once learned, you will be calm the next time you change something. this arm was one of the joys of my hifi addiction. it allows each cartridge to sound like itself.

and hey, i'm almost a canuck, i'm from buffalo, ny!! now i live in southern california ;^)

[jbangelfish]

Let me know what you think of the Tori Amos vinyl, I think it might be her best although I like lots of her music. I picked up the White Stripes Elephant on red and white vinyl and wasn't real pleased. Found too much surface noise for new vinyl and most of the music was not my cup of tea. Some was OK and even good (maybe was in the wrong mood for it) but as I said, too much noise for new vinyl.
Yeah, I'll take alittle hiss any day over cutting some of the music out and as you say, your brain tends to filter it out anyway. The other Virgil Fox CD, Encores, is even better. Less hiss, barely audible and a great job of recording. I can't believe the master tape is from 1958. Excellent CD with no digital indications of any kind. The pipe organ sounds perfect and his playing is superb.
You're from Buffalo? One of my best buddies is from there. How could you give up all that lovely weather for So. Cal?
Bill

[DMK]

[QUOTE=Geoffcin]Try the Shanling CD player. One of the most visually arresting CD players, and tubed to boot.

That is one beautiful CD player! Who says they all have to look cheap?

[jbangelfish]

I found a CD which I found completely enjoyable and having no digital signature that I could hear. That's about as high of a compliment as I have ever given to a CD. The title is Bach, Great Organ Works performed by Virgil Fox at both The Riverside Church in NYC (his home organ for 30 years or so and the largest organ in NYC) and also at the Royal Albert Hall in London. This is an RCA Victrola label CD, distributed by BMG in 1988 #7736-2-RV.
There is a notable hiss in the background during quiet passages which is a minor annoyance but it must come from the master tape that it was recorded from as between tracks is dead silent. Would have been nice to filter out the hiss but if any music would be lost, it would not be worth the effort as during most play, you are not aware of the hiss. Anyway, I could find nothing wrong with this CD with the pipe organ sounding exactly as it is supposed to and Mr Fox's performance is outstanding as always.
Now, if I had that Shanling, maybe it would be even better but it was good enough for me to completely enjoy with no listening fatigue. It's rare for me to find this with CD but more and more decent ones seem to be being made. And this is an old one. OK, I found one, yippeee. Still looking for some more.
Bill

[DMK]

OK, I found one, yippeee. Still looking for some more.
Bill

Bill,

I have quite a few good sounding CD's - perhaps 300 of them. Unfortunately, out of a total of about 4000 CD's, that's pretty lame. I have about the same number of vinyl pieces and all but about 100-200 sound excellent. I guess if even one CD sounds good, the medium itself isn't at fault. However, one recording engineer I know who consistently puts out top quality CD's says that to do so is a major PITA and it isn't worth it for major labels to take on that cost. He wasn't in the business during vinyl's heyday so he couldn't really answer the question of why so many of them sound so good if cost is such a factor.

The fact of the matter is that I don't care if it's the medium or the recording/mastering or the phases of the moon that cause CD's as a rule to sound distorted and lifeless. They do and until they can come out with a consistently good product, vinyl will retain its crown as the closest to live music.

[Feanor]

There is an undeniable hypnotic magic to watching the black disc spinning round at about one revolution every two seconds while a tonearm and cartridge visibly follow all of the wiggles and undulations of the grooves. ...

... adjusting stylus weigh, angle, etc. I'm sure a lot of people derive a masochistic satisfaction from all this tedium.

Not me, though.

[rb122]

The people who invented the cd should have spent a little more time on the esthetics of playing a cd instead of spending all of it eliminating wow, flutter, rumble, acoustic feedback, noise, hum, distortion, interchannel crosstalk, limited dynamic range, and frequency response irregularities. Until they do, there will always be a market for vinyl.

They also shouldn't have added electronic grain, severe HF cutoff, distortion, glare, harshness, tonal irregularities, and overall inaccurate sound. They shouldn't have taken away the life, body, harmonic integrity and "live sound".

I think CD is a case of the cure being worse than the disease. Oh, by the way, if you're having problems with wow, flutter, fumble, feedback, hum, distortion and FR irregularites, try another turntable system as yours is apparently defective or, at least, isn't getting the job done that better turntables do.

As for SACD making vinyl obsolete, I don't think so. I think they will sit side by side as niche products while CD's remain king of the marketplace, if not king of accuracy.

[DMK]

They also shouldn't have added electronic grain, severe HF cutoff, distortion, glare, harshness, tonal irregularities, and overall inaccurate sound. They shouldn't have taken away the life, body, harmonic integrity and "live sound".

I think CD is a case of the cure being worse than the disease. Oh, by the way, if you're having problems with wow, flutter, fumble, feedback, hum, distortion and FR irregularites, try another turntable system as yours is apparently defective or, at least, isn't getting the job done that better turntables do.

As for SACD making vinyl obsolete, I don't think so. I think they will sit side by side as niche products while CD's remain king of the marketplace, if not king of accuracy.

A little vitriol from mild mannered Rob??? Whoa - ho!!!! You are spot on with your assessment. But what's "fumble"? Is that what the CD engineers did with the sound?

I LOVE the feedback argument! What does a turntable feedback at, around 5 hertz? There's SO much musical information at that level, even in live music - NOT! Again, the so called "problems" with vinyl and turntables are mostly theoretical, not audible. CD's problems are mostly audible but not measurable. Hmmm... which should I choose?

SACD's replacing vinyl - I agree it probably won't happen. But I think the CD will die out when music becomes a computer hard-driven. Our systems will be linked to our computer and we'll download and store our purchases in a sort of WAV format, but more sophisticated. It will likely sound even worse than the CD because we're a society of convenience which is how the CD took off to begin with. Sad, but I think high fidelity will eventually become even more of a niche item. The CD staggered HiFi but I think the biggest blow is yet to come.

Nice to see you back!

[jbangelfish]

I've already found at least 2 or 3 cd's that I thought were excellent. I hope to buy more. Strangely, these had analog beginnings.
Bill

[rb122]

A little vitriol from mild mannered Rob??? Whoa - ho!!!! You are spot on with your assessment. But what's "fumble"? Is that what the CD engineers did with the sound?

I LOVE the feedback argument! What does a turntable feedback at, around 5 hertz? There's SO much musical information at that level, even in live music - NOT! Again, the so called "problems" with vinyl and turntables are mostly theoretical, not audible. CD's problems are mostly audible but not measurable. Hmmm... which should I choose?

SACD's replacing vinyl - I agree it probably won't happen. But I think the CD will die out when music becomes a computer hard-driven. Our systems will be linked to our computer and we'll download and store our purchases in a sort of WAV format, but more sophisticated. It will likely sound even worse than the CD because we're a society of convenience which is how the CD took off to begin with. Sad, but I think high fidelity will eventually become even more of a niche item. The CD staggered HiFi but I think the biggest blow is yet to come.

Nice to see you back!

Thanks, I'll be around but not as much as before. So little time.

Thanks for catching my "fumble". It was supposed to be rumble, of course. If it's a problem, it's the gear at fault, not the medium. In the case of both LP and CD, there are audible problems. I find those of LP to be less objectionable. I just have a problem with those who looks at the measurements and conclude that CD is without fault or even less without fault than the LP. If they believe that, they aren't listening to the same music I am, their ears or their standards aren't as good/high as mine, or they have a system synergy or room problem. I'm sorry but I can't back the CD because it fails me most of the time - too much distortion whether it's measured or not. When certain guitars lose their proper tone on CD, that's a sore spot with me. All the positive measurements in the world won't impress me if they can't get the sound right.

Skeptic's point was that the CD engineers solved all of analog's problems. Unfortunately, they threw the baby out with the bathwater and also added a few sonic unpleasantries. If the medium truly isn't to blame, when will they get it right? I agree that the technical limitations of vinyl are largely theoretical and don't show up under normal listening but I hold specifications at limited value if they don't produce something better. Convenience is nice and the LP doesn't rate with CD in that arena. Sonically, most of the CD's I've heard are severely compromised and none of them is "perfect sound forever". Those that blindly (deafly?) follow the measurements are advised to go listen to some live music once in awhile for perspective. The reproduction of music should be all about getting the sound right. Where did we lose our way?

[jbangelfish]

This is a sore spot for me as well. When I have LP's that were made in the 1960's that have better sound than CD's that were made in 2003, something is very wrong with the current state of affairs. This absolutely speaks horribly for the recording industry and is an insult to critical listeners around the world. I'm not good enough to listen and tell you what kind of guitar is playing or what kind of piano is playing (although I can usually tell if it's a grand piano or an upright) but I know when it has a more natural sound and for me, this is nearly always found with vinyl.
I have managed to find a few CD's that I would rate as excellent recordings and I speak freely about them whenever I find one. Most of my best were analog recordings from as far back as the 50's and their sound is close enough to vinyl that I'd happily listen to this quality in CD format indefinately. Why this is accomplished so seldom is just inexcusable. As I've listened to more classical lately, this is where I find more good CD's and Skeptic's points about this have made sense. Sadly.
So much music is not available on vinyl that we are forced to listen to the garbage that they turn out in CD's. It's a shame to think that I have to listen to some of my favorite music and think that it is merely tolerable to listen to especially when you think about how well it could be done as far back as the 60's and 70's or even earlier. I sit and listen to old vinyl from the 60's and wonder who even had a stereo that was good enough to really appreciate it. I'm just glad that they did take the time to record as well as they did and I will continue to buy new and old vinyl as long as it is available.
If everything goes to multichannel CD (which I highly doubt) then I will have to be content to listen to the old stuff that I have and I'm certainly glad that I never sold any vinyl as I have a substantial collection that would take a few years to listen to. On the other hand, there does seem to be more and more available on vinyl. Maybe they'll keep doing this to keep us vinyl heads quiet and happy. I would also be happy if they just made more quality CD's because I'm getting old and lazy and I'm content to sit back, drink a beer and push remote buttons as long as the sound coming out is better than just tolerable.
Bill

[Feanor]

Any comments?

Though I haven't given away my LP collection.

SACD is even better than CD, at least typically for the recordings I've heard.

[DMK]

Though I haven't given away my LP collectio .

If you decide to do so, don't forget your pals here at AR!

I believe you posted that you had a rather modest analog front end. Unfortunately, it does cost a bit of money to maximize the sound of LP's, moreso than CD's. I guess I should say instead that vinyl playback gets noticeably better as your components are upgraded. That doesn't mean you can't get satisfactory sound from modest gear, though. It just means you have to add a little luck with some learning of what's good for minimal bucks. I bought an old Technics turntable from someone who used to post on AR for $75, including arm and cartridge and while it isn't nearly as good as my main setup, it toasts CD sound. Now my kids use it.

[Beckman]

If you decide to do so, don't forget your pals here at AR!
I bought an old Technics turntable from someone who used to post on AR for $75, including arm and cartridge and while it isn't nearly as good as my main setup, it toasts CD sound. Now my kids use it.

That is what I would have said prior to my purchase of a used Technics table for $40. It has better dynamics and sounds more "real" than my $400 CDP. Unfortunately much of the music I like to listen to isn't available on vinyl and my CDP does make CD's sound quite good.

[DMK]

That is what I would have said prior to my purchase of a used Technics table for $40. It has better dynamics and sounds more "real" than my $400 CDP. Unfortunately much of the music I like to listen to isn't available on vinyl and my CDP does make CD's sound quite good.

That's the primary difference between the two mediums - one sounds "good" and one sounds "more real". You hit the nail on the head! My thoughts exactly.