Turntable Pro Vs Audiophile

[BRANDONH]

I am thinking of replacing my Pro-ject 1.2 with a Technics SL-1210MK5 (black).
http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_el..._sl1210m5g.asp
It weighs 26.5 lbs.
What are the advantages and or disadvantages between the S shaped tone arm and a straight tone arm, direct drive vs belt drive?
I realize that I will not need or use some of the DJ features but the Turntable overall looks quality.

[Bernd]

Hi,
Why do you want to get a DJ TT?
If you want to upgrade and sound quality is important to you why not give the Projects higher up a try or the Rega P5 or the Michell Technodeck with Technoarm A.
These three will blow the Technics into the weeds. It really depends what you like.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Hi,
Why do you want to get a DJ TT?
If you want to upgrade and sound quality is important to you why not give the Projects higher up a try or the Rega P5 or the Michell Technodeck with Technoarm A.
These three will blow the Technics into the weeds. It really depends what you like.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

Hello Bernd,
I am thinking of getting one because I play the music at a VERY high volume and sometimes get feedback.
My thinking is, since DJ's play in high volume atmospheres with no feed back problems then the Pro TT would be more suitable for high volume play back.
I will keep my Shure V15VxMR cartridge though.

[Bernd]

Hi,
Is your TT in the firing line of your speakers? A DJ TT would also suffer from feedback if in direct line of the speakers.
I also play at high volume and in my opnion it is the support you put the TT on that matters most apart from the position. Also a suspended design that can dump energy efficiently will sail through high volumes.An unsuspended design benefits greatly from a really good plattform. I used to have a Rega P25 and that sat on a Voodoo Plattform (Air suspended).
It's your call, but I would not go down the Pro route if sound quality is paramount.
Good luck and keep us updated on what you decide.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

[emaidel]

I have to agree with Bernd. I see no reason whatsoever to purchase a DJ turntable if it's sound quality you're after. Insofar as straight vs. S-shaped tonearms: straight arms typically are lower mass, and can accommodate high compliance, low-mass cartridges well, and are better suited for playing warped records without the arm flying off the record surface.

As to Direct Drive vs. belt: there are strong opinions on both sides of this issue. Supporters of belt-drive argue that the bass response is better, whereas DD supporters advocate dead-accurate speed and fast start-up times, plus the need to never have to replace a belt. Since Direct Drive was the "darling" of the mass market Japanese manufacturers, I suspect that such a "stain" on a product (to be associated with the unwashed masses) comes into play here too.

Just don't go buy a DJ turntable, however. You'll be wasting your money.

[BRANDONH]

Hi,
Is your TT in the firing line of your speakers? A DJ TT would also suffer from feedback if in direct line of the speakers.
I also play at high volume and in my opnion it is the support you put the TT on that matters most apart from the position. Also a suspended design that can dump energy efficiently will sail through high volumes.An unsuspended design benefits greatly from a really good plattform. I used to have a Rega P25 and that sat on a Voodoo Plattform (Air suspended).
It's your call, but I would not go down the Pro route if sound quality is paramount.
Good luck and keep us updated on what you decide.

Enjoy the music

Bernd

The TT is behind the speakers but when I get close to 2500-3000 watts it begins to feedback or howl especially near the end of the record.

The specs on the Technics look impressive though:
Colors available: Black
Type: Quartz direct-drive (manual turntables)
Drive: Method Direct-Drive
Motor: Brushless DC motor
Turntable Platter: Aluminum diecast, Diameter: 13 5/64" (33.2cm), Mass: 3.74 lbs (1.7 kg)
Turntable Speeds: 33-1/3 rpm, 45 rpm
Variable Range Pitch: ±8%, ±16%
Starting Torque: 1.3 lb-in (1.5 kg-cm)
Build-Up Characteristics: 0.7s from standstill to 33-1/3 rpm
Braking System: Electronic brake
Wow and Flutter: 0.01% WRMS, 0.025% WRMS (JIS C5521), ±0.035% peak (IEC 98A Weighted)
Rumble: -56dB (IEC 98A Unweighted) -78dB (IEC Weighted)
Effective Length: 9-1/16" (230mm)
Arm Height Adjustment Range: 0-6mm
Overhang: 19/32" (15mm)
Effective Mass: 12g (without cartridge)
Offset Angle: 22°
Friction: Less than 7mg (lateral, vertical)
Tracking Error Angle: Within 2° 32' (at the outer groove of 12" record)
Within 0° 32' (at the inner groove of 12" record)
Stylus Pressure Adjustment Range: 0-4g
Applicable Cartridge Weight Range: 3.5g - 13g
11g - 20.5g (including headshell)
Applicable Cartridge Weight Range (with auxiliary weight):
(with auxiliary weight) 9.5g - 13g
17g - 20.5g (including headshell)
Applicable Cartridge Weight Range (with shell weight): 3.5g - 6.5g
11g - 14g (including head shell)
Headshell Weight: 7.5g
Power Supply: AC120V, 60Hz
Power Consumption: 14.5W
Dimensions: 17-27/32" x 6-25/32" x 13-31/32"
Weight: 25.74lb (11.7 kg)

[Florian]

Dont worry, there is absolutly no way that there is ever going to be 3kw on the run. If you feed your speakers "real" 3kw they will meltdown, blow to pieces or whatever. I dont think the feedback your getting is the turntable. Your system simply doesnt have a "pitch black" background. You need equipment with a better noise floor. On my system for instance on the same turntable i can get close to 120db in this room. (105db peak when i listen) and get no audiable feedback. Time to upgrade the preamps, amps etc...

[slate1]

Brandon - I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

Go to www.kabusa.com and talk with Kevin - he'll give you the facts.

Here's the deal - the Technics is quieter, more speed stable, and more isolated than any of the belt drive tables in its price range. The tonearm is often sighted as the "weak point" of the table - yet it's bearings have 1/5th the stiction of the Rega arms and the Technics arm is WAY more adjustable.

The bottom line nobody wants to admit is the SL1200 tables were originally designed as AUDIOPHILE decks and the modern era DJ's embraced them due to the fact that if they carried a Rega around from job to job it would be sawdust in a matter of weeks.

[Bernd]

Brandon - I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

Go to www.kabusa.com and talk with Kevin - he'll give you the facts.

Here's the deal - the Technics is quieter, more speed stable, and more isolated than any of the belt drive tables in its price range. The tonearm is often sighted as the "weak point" of the table - yet it's bearings have 1/5th the stiction of the Rega arms and the Technics arm is WAY more adjustable.

The bottom line nobody wants to admit is the SL1200 tables were originally designed as AUDIOPHILE decks and the modern era DJ's embraced them due to the fact that if they carried a Rega around from job to job it would be sawdust in a matter of weeks.

Hi,
That's exacteley what I said. Direct drive TTs ,in that price bracket, should be very stable.But due to the motor being attached it also genrates noise. And the arm is really not very good. If however you want to take your TT with you where ever you go the Technics is the one.
In order to exploit really good sound quality the TT needs to be set up very very well. Every time you move it it changes. And to be honest sound quality is not on most DJs mind.
It all comes down to preference. Build for sound quality or build for robust treatment.I know of a DJ how uses these decks and has modified them to take an Origin Live modified Rega RB 250. That's one step you may consider.My belt drive TTs speed is rock solid and does not drift. It does however needs careful set up.
We are all different and different parameters are important and I am glad to see another view on this matter.I can only give you my point of view and if sound quality is important I would not by a DJ TT.
Have fun.

Bernd

[slate1]

Bernd - we could do this infinitum I'm sure, but I'm going to make these points one more time – and back them up with FACTS..

The SL-1200 series decks and tonearms were NOT designed as DJ decks in the 70's. DJ’s embraced them because they’re built like a freakin’ tank. It’s an audiophile engineered deck that modern day DJ’s have embraced. Period.

It's a mystery to me as to where everyone gets the idea that the tonearm on the Technics deck is crap. It most certainly is not and, IN FACT, is superior on many fronts to the "audiophile" Rega and Pro-Ject arms. We could argue the merits and demerits of S-Arms all day and I’m not going to go down that road – it’s mostly a matter of taste.

First, just to qualify all this - I own a Michell table with a Rega derived arm on it and have owned the $1,100 Michell TecnoArm.

Let's look at the FACTS - not conjecture:

The heart of a turntable and tonearm are their respective bearings. The bearing stiction on the Rega arms (Origin Live, Michell, Moth, etc. included) is around .04 grams. That simply means that if you put .04g or less on the headshell, the bearings will “stick� and not move – stiction is a good indication of bearing quality - the lower the better.

The bearing stiction on the Technics arm? It's .007 grams - that's 1/5th the stiction rating of the Regas! Take the belt off a Rega P3 and give the platter a spin and then do the same thing with the SL-1200 and tell me which one spins longer... I already know as I've done it - the Technics platter bearing will well outrun the Rega and not by a small margin either. To be fair - the Michell will outrun them both! As it should at $1,700.

Noise - ProJect tables in this price range have a rumble rating of around -70db, Rega doesn't publish noise ratings for their tables... interesting that isn't it? Rumnble is an indication of how much motor noise is making it to the platter and up the tonearm - the lower the better. The Technics? -79db plus it's infinitely better isolated than either the Rega or the Pro-Ject.

Again – I don’t see how anyone can argue this point given the FACTS. The Technics is a superior designed table UNMATCHED in its price category. Now, having said all that. It can be outdone by some belt-drives; BUT at nowhere near it’s price point. It will handily trounce anything from the Rega P2 – P5 line and the sub $1k ProJects / MMF-s. Put some of the KAB tweaks on and it’ll give the higher ups a run for the money.

The biggest problem with the Technics is you’ll have to admit that you own one… so, to me, the real question is not do you want to trade durability for sound; but, do you want to keep your pass to the audiophile playground or raise your middle finger in salute to the elitist snobs for the best sounding and performing deck ever made in the sub-$1k category.

[Bernd]

Bernd - we could do this infinitum I'm sure, but I'm going to make these points one more time – and back them up with FACTS..

The SL-1200 series decks and tonearms were NOT designed as DJ decks in the 70's. DJ’s embraced them because they’re built like a freakin’ tank. It’s an audiophile engineered deck that modern day DJ’s have embraced. Period.

It's a mystery to me as to where everyone gets the idea that the tonearm on the Technics deck is crap. It most certainly is not and, IN FACT, is superior on many fronts to the "audiophile" Rega and Pro-Ject arms. We could argue the merits and demerits of S-Arms all day and I’m not going to go down that road – it’s mostly a matter of taste.

First, just to qualify all this - I own a Michell table with a Rega derived arm on it and have owned the $1,100 Michell TecnoArm.

Let's look at the FACTS - not conjecture:

The heart of a turntable and tonearm are their respective bearings. The bearing stiction on the Rega arms (Origin Live, Michell, Moth, etc. included) is around .04 grams. That simply means that if you put .04g or less on the headshell, the bearings will “stick� and not move – stiction is a good indication of bearing quality - the lower the better.

The bearing stiction on the Technics arm? It's .007 grams - that's 1/5th the stiction rating of the Regas! Take the belt off a Rega P3 and give the platter a spin and then do the same thing with the SL-1200 and tell me which one spins longer... I already know as I've done it - the Technics platter bearing will well outrun the Rega and not by a small margin either. To be fair - the Michell will outrun them both! As it should at $1,700.

Noise - ProJect tables in this price range have a rumble rating of around -70db, Rega doesn't publish noise ratings for their tables... interesting that isn't it? Rumnble is an indication of how much motor noise is making it to the platter and up the tonearm - the lower the better. The Technics? -79db plus it's infinitely better isolated than either the Rega or the Pro-Ject.

Again – I don’t see how anyone can argue this point given the FACTS. The Technics is a superior designed table UNMATCHED in its price category. Now, having said all that. It can be outdone by some belt-drives; BUT at nowhere near it’s price point. It will handily trounce anything from the Rega P2 – P5 line and the sub $1k ProJects / MMF-s. Put some of the KAB tweaks on and it’ll give the higher ups a run for the money.

The biggest problem with the Technics is you’ll have to admit that you own one… so, to me, the real question is not do you want to trade durability for sound; but, do you want to keep your pass to the audiophile playground or raise your middle finger in salute to the elitist snobs for the best sounding and performing deck ever made in the sub-$1k category.

Hi,

I don't think I am an elitist snob. I started with a Dual-Technics-Project-Rega-Michell Orbe/Technarm A , Clearaudio Ambient and now an SME20/2A Series V. As you see I went through the ranks over the years. And the Technics I owned 20 odd years ago sounded good then but would not be a match for what I have now. You could be right that at it's price point the Technics will be a contender,but I would love to do a shootout.
All I am advocating is, if you choose a new TT, try and choose one on hearing them and not from a spec sheet or a photo and be sure what you want from the design..
Technics was only ever mid-fi and never did show any aspirations to go up the ladder and that is fine if that is what you are after.
Let me know if you buy one and how you get on I always like to hear other peoples experiences.

Peace

Bernd

[slate1]

Sorry Bernd - didn't mean that you were an elitist snob and sorry to have implied such.

No - I agree that the Technics does not compete with an Orbe/TecnoArm combo - nor should it! We're talking a $3k+ rig compared to a $500 one. Yet, that level of deck is exactly what an increasing number of "audiophiles" want to use as a basis upon which to dismiss the SL1200 and simply imply that it's a DJ tool and nothing else.

All I'm saying is that apples to apples - SL-1200 -vs- any of the sub-$1k decks from Rega, Pro-Ject, Music Hall, etc. - there's no comparison in build quality AND performance.

Sorry again if I offended you - it was not my intent!

[Florian]

Don't worry Slate1 everyone who owns above average equipment is a snob!

[Bernd]

Sorry Bernd - didn't mean that you were an elitist snob and sorry to have implied such.

No - I agree that the Technics does not compete with an Orbe/TecnoArm combo - nor should it! We're talking a $3k+ rig compared to a $500 one. Yet, that level of deck is exactly what an increasing number of "audiophiles" want to use as a basis upon which to dismiss the SL1200 and simply imply that it's a DJ tool and nothing else.

All I'm saying is that apples to apples - SL-1200 -vs- any of the sub-$1k decks from Rega, Pro-Ject, Music Hall, etc. - there's no comparison in build quality AND performance.

Sorry again if I offended you - it was not my intent!

Hi,
No need to apologise, but full marks for doing so. You didn't offend me. I know what and who I am and am completeley at ease with that. You are right that build quality is pretty good on the Technics and I dare say it needs to be as it will be carted around by most owners i.e. DJs.
In the up to $1k bracket the Technics will probably have to be considered.
I certainley will not dismiss anything that somebody else likes.
Enjoy the music

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Dont worry, there is absolutly no way that there is ever going to be 3kw on the run. If you feed your speakers "real" 3kw they will meltdown, blow to pieces or whatever. I dont think the feedback your getting is the turntable. Your system simply doesnt have a "pitch black" background. You need equipment with a better noise floor. On my system for instance on the same turntable i can get close to 120db in this room. (105db peak when i listen) and get no audiable feedback. Time to upgrade the preamps, amps etc...

Thanks for your input.
But I can push 3000 watts. My speakers are built for 2000 watts each.
Systems total power is 4800 watts but 3000 is all I can stand and say in the house.
When partying I usually keep in the 1500 to 2000 watt range but after a few more beers well.. it may get pushed up to 3000 with no melt down or blown speakers.

[BRANDONH]

Brandon - I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

Go to www.kabusa.com and talk with Kevin - he'll give you the facts.

Here's the deal - the Technics is quieter, more speed stable, and more isolated than any of the belt drive tables in its price range. The tonearm is often sighted as the "weak point" of the table - yet it's bearings have 1/5th the stiction of the Rega arms and the Technics arm is WAY more adjustable.

The bottom line nobody wants to admit is the SL1200 tables were originally designed as AUDIOPHILE decks and the modern era DJ's embraced them due to the fact that if they carried a Rega around from job to job it would be sawdust in a matter of weeks.

I havent spoke with Keven Yet but here is what he says on his site:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm

Spec's can tell an awful lot. It's a shame so many Hi End companies have chosen to withhold this vital performance info. The Hi End magazines too should be ashamed for not testing the turntables they "review".

The Frequency Generator Servo Control on the '1200 produces the most consistent rotational accuracy of any known drive system. Unlike most belt drive systems, it is completely immune to both static and dynamic stylus drag.

The Tonearm bearings, polished to a finish of ± 0.5 microns, feature very low friction of 0.007 grams and the turntable body is a 3 section constrained layer non resonant affair. The Cast 5 Lb Platter system is damped both underneath and by the 1 Lb top mat.

For the tweakers, the Technics interconnect cable contributes 90 pF and the wire in the turntable and tonearm wand contribute 10 pF for 100pF total capacitance. So the interconnect rating is 2pF per inch or 24pF per foot. The cable on the M5G and GLD is abit thicker and claimed to be OFC fine strand copper. They also have gold plated connectors.

All Models employ the same build materials, platter and tonearm. The M5G and GLD have a dual range pitch control that is separately crystal controlled for unsurpassed accuracy and drift free performance. Also the M5G and GLD feature a static lateral tonearm damping system. This is for dj use and perhaps archival 78 RPM shallow grooves. It has no use in hi fi applications.

P.S. The tonearm does look to be made very well.

[pelly3s]

The 1200 is a workhorse and a great sounding table. Any studio that have tables will most likely have a 1200 and I have said it all over this site if its good enough to use in a studio its good enough for home use. There are a lot of mods you can do to 1200's to make them sonically better. And in the price range you definately cant go wrong with it.

[royphil345]

Another vote for the Technics. Especially since you use a Shure cart. It does have better isolation and speed accuracy than any "audiophile" table in the same price-range. Also runs quiet. The Shure V15 and M97xE are high-compliance, but work especially well with higher-mass tonearms.

[BRANDONH]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
After careful consideration I have decided to get the SL-1210M5G.
I have found it for 488.88 thats a little more than I paid for the Pro-ject 1.2 a couple of years back.



Ill let you all know once I get it hooked up.

[Bernd]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
After careful consideration I have decided to get the SL-1210M5G.
I have found it for 488.88 thats a little more than I paid for the Pro-ject 1.2 a couple of years back.



Ill let you all know once I get it hooked up.

Hi,
Well done.
I am wishing you lots of great musical hours.

Enjoy

Bernd

[BRANDONH]

Ill let you all know once I get it hooked up.

OK everyone I got it hooked up and had plenty of time to play with it over the weekend.
It is definitely is an upgrade over the Pro-ject 1.2.
the high volume feedback that I was having before has been reduced drastically and since I setup the tone arm up without the head shell weight there is no rumble well at least I can not hear it.
Midrange and the bass really came to life the highs do seem to be tamed down a tiny bit, not a bad thing just tamer not so shrill.
Tried it with the factory supplied rubber mat then an extreme phono non-felt mat (shown in picture) and then tried Pro-ject's felt mat and I feel that the felt mat sounded best so I am using it for now
The Shure V15VxMR is now installed on the Technic's. Easy as pie!
I'll have to say in my opinion that the Technics is by far superior to the Pro-ject 1.2
Dead silent background
Constant speed
more gadgets that a Swiss Army knife
Great Looks.

[slate1]

Fantastic! Looks great Brandon.

Quick question - did you use the provided cartride alignment tool to align the cartridge in the headshelll? If so, are you happy with the results?

[BRANDONH]

Fantastic! Looks great Brandon.

Quick question - did you use the provided cartride alignment tool to align the cartridge in the headshelll? If so, are you happy with the results?

Thanks.
Yes I used the tool provided and then double checked it with the protractor supplied with my Shure to make sure it was square but with a good eye the tool that Technic's provides works great and the overhang was right on. I was only a little off on the squareness which is where the protractor came in handy.
I gotta say this table rocks!

[slate1]

I gotta say this table rocks!

Yes - it most certainly does! I found a Shure M97XE for $60 - may just have to order one up since the V15 is no longer in production and try it out.

[BRANDONH]

Yes - it most certainly does! I found a Shure M97XE for $60 - may just have to order one up since the V15 is no longer in production and try it out.

Amazon has them for 57.99 with free shipping
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...onics&v=glance