TT in the future

[blackraven]

I just got back from Albuquerque, NM and the friend that I was visiting gave me his Bellari VP129 phono preamp as he replaced it with the Rega Fono preamp. So I guess I will be buying a TT in the next few months. I have some research to do concerning the best tubes for it.

I had a great time in NM. We stayed up till 0500 every day and listened to music and drank Margarita's and shots of raspberry Moonshine. I think that I am done with alcohol for a few months!

[blackraven]

I have been doing some research on Budget TT's and Cartridges. I am leaning to the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Black and an Ortofon Bronze Cartridge. The Cartridge may be a little too high end for this TT but I have read some very good reviews with this combo. I am also looking to buy a used TT like a MH MMF5, RP3 or something similar.

[Jack in Wilmington]

With the money I just got from selling my Anthem integrated, I'm thinking a new cartridge may be in my future. I may have to give Ortofon some thought. I was also looking at Bryston's new USB convertor, since my DAC only does 96/24. I have to decide if I'm going to be doing more vinyl or Hi Rez. listening.

[blackraven]

Jack, the reviews on the Ortofon Bronze are great and the price is right. I would really like to drop some coin on the Clear Audio Concept, Music Hall MMF 7se or a VPI along with a $1K catridge and $1K phono preamp but its not going to happen. I would rather upgrade my Maggies to the 1.7's of the 3.7i speakers. I would also like a high end DAC in the $3K range. Too much to buy and not enough money!

I have been doing a lot of reading on TT's, phono preamps and cartridges. Some people say to get a better TT and a lesser cart. and preamp. Others say to put more money into the cart. and preamp. I am leaning to the latter. Although the Bellari preamp leaves much to be desired, but with some tube rolling and a better wall wart the sound can be much improved. And I can't complain about a free phono preamp.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, the reviews on the Ortofon Bronze are great and the price is right. I would really like to drop some coin on the Clear Audio Concept, Music Hall MMF 7se or a VPI along with a $1K catridge and $1K phono preamp but its not going to happen. I would rather upgrade my Maggies to the 1.7's of the 3.7i speakers. I would also like a high end DAC in the $3K range. Too much to buy and not enough money!















I have been doing a lot of reading on TT's, phono preamps and cartridges. Some people say to get a better TT and a lesser cart. and preamp. Others say to put more money into the cart. and preamp. I am leaning to the latter. Although the Bellari preamp leaves much to be desired, but with some tube rolling and a better wall wart the sound can be much improved. And I can't complain about a free phono preamp.

I've always been of the "better cart" philosophy. I feel a better cart can make an entry level table sound good, but a better table such as the Clearaudio won't sound good with an Ortofon Blue or other lower priced carts.

[JohnMichael]

Better table, good cart is what I would choose. A great cartridge in a compromised tonearm will not give you your money's worth. An arm that has lesser bearings and materials will have higher levels of friction and the cartridge will not perform as it should. I also think the table should have very low levels of mechanical noise.

I have improved my table by rewiring the arm and a lowered counterweight. The arm tracks better and the rewire made for a more open sound. My machined subplatter, ceramic bearing, top and bottom bracing has reduced mechanical noise. The 24V motor has also reduced vibrations and improved speed stability. After the motor install and the braces my budget AT F7 sounds great.

What a turntable would need before I would put an expensive cartridge in it would be a quality bearing and very stable platter. A tonearm that is adjustable for tracking angle and azimuth. Very low friction in the pivot bearings, low resonant arm tube and quality wiring. Of course some form of housing that would not feed any mechanical noise back to the record.

[blackraven]

JM, I fully agree with you. But with my budget I feel that I would get the most bang for the buck with the Debut which has a heavy platter and carbon arm combined with a good cartridge. There are quite a few people combining the Debut with the $450 Ortofon Bronze cartridge and getting excellent sound. However, if I can find a good used TT for about the price of a new Debut then I will go for it.

[JohnMichael]

JM, I fully agree with you. But with my budget I feel that I would get the most bang for the buck with the Debut which has a heavy platter and carbon arm combined with a good cartridge. There are quite a few people combining the Debut with the $450 Ortofon Bronze cartridge and getting excellent sound. However, if I can find a good used TT for about the price of a new Debut then I will go for it.

I think that would be a good combination. I was thinking of a $1,500 cartridge with a severe profile that requires very careful adjustment. I do fine using spacers for VTA with an elliptical stylus but setting VTA for a MicroLine or Shibata stylus would require finer adjustment.

[Mr Peabody]

JM has it correct, if you have to compromise then better table with lesser cart. I also find people too many times skimp on the phono stage which is also important. I bought the Performance and continued to use the 10x5 and will upgrade cart down the road. I was told the same as JM mentioned, an expensive cart will be wasted money on a table not able to bring out it's benefit. Sort of like hooking a receiver to the Dynaudio 1.8's. You want to find a quality table, then purchase a cart that has synergy with your phono stage. This is a bit more difficult than putting components together unless you have an analog guru dealer around, so often have to rely on those with experience who have tried various combos.

Ortofon is very good in a neutral dynamic way. When I upgrade it will be between Ortofon or Clearaudio's Meastro. The Dyna 20 may be an option ass my 10x5 is doing really good in my rig.

[blackraven]

The reviews of the Debut say it responds well to a higher end cartridge like the Orotofon Bronze or something similar in that price range. I think that if I get this set up the Bellari will be the limiting factor. After hearing the Rega Fono, I would consider upgrading to it or maybe the Clear Audio Nano. There are a couple of good NOS tubes that steps up the quality of sound in the Bellari. Replacing the cheap wall wart with a radio shack Enercell wall wart with its filtering is supposed to really improve the sound, giving it a very black background.

[02audionoob]

I too am of the belief that it's good turntable first, good cartridge second. However, I do have a Debut III with a Dynavector 10x4 MKII on it.

[blackraven]

I too am of the belief that it's good turntable first, good cartridge second. However, I do have a Debut III with a Dynavector 10x4 MKII on it.

How do you like that combo?

The more reading that I have been doing the more I am convinced to go with a higher end cartridge and phono preamp vs a higher end TT. I am not talking about buying a junk TT. The TT is only going to be as good as its phono preamp and catridge. I feel that to get the most out of the TT you need a quality catridge and preamp, at least something that is comparable in cost, not 2x's the cost of the TT. There are definitely 2 schools of thought. And I certainly understand wow, flutter, rumble, speed control, resonance and other parameters of what makes a good TT.

There is a used Rega P3 24 TT with an Elyse cartridge for sale for $599. I may buy it today if it is still available.

[02audionoob]

Until the Apheta cartridge, Rega used to put the $600 Exact on their $5,000 P9. Even now, the Apheta they're selling with their top of the line turntables doesn't approach the price of the turntables. The price of the Exact doesn't approach the price of the RP6 they bundle with it. On my own P9, I was very impressed with how good the modest Dynavector sounded. I was also impressed with how good the Elys sounded on my previous P5. My current cartridge is a Benz that currently lists for less than a third of what the P9 sold for at the time.

That aside, the $400 Dynavector sounds nice on the $400 Pro-Ject. It's in a system with poorly placed speakers, due to room use, so it has its limitations. But with a sub and with my ears in the sweet spot, it serves well.

[hifitommy]

a friend recently bought this tt and the $1k pro-ject phono which turns out to be fanTASTic. he ugraded to the next cart up from the blackbird and he now listens almost exclusively to vinyl.

Pro-Ject Xtension 10 Turntable | The Absolute Sound

i have heard his setup and am mightily impressed.

[blackraven]

That is a beautiful TT.

I missed out on the used Rega P3 24.

[Mr Peabody]

Too bad on the Rega, that looked like a good deal. The Xtension was on my list but it is too tall for the space I had. Not same level but the Perspex is a good looking table too.

[E-Stat]

I just got back from Albuquerque, NM and the friend that I was visiting gave me his Bellari VP129 phono preamp as he replaced it with the Rega Fono preamp. I have some research to do concerning the best tubes for it.

First of all, there's only one tube for two channels and it doesn't make tons of difference.

I owned one for a while. Not bad, but on the opaque side. I replaced the original tube with two other 12AX7s while experimenting. Four op amps do all the heavy lifting.

[hifitommy]

i bought the bellari BEFORE mikey reviewed it and came up with his answer before he did. not bad for the money but i would love to try a Schiit Mani with mc/mm capability, all ss for $160!

it has been well received in the press.

[Feanor]

Jack, the reviews on the Ortofon Bronze are great and the price is right. I would really like to drop some coin on the Clear Audio Concept, Music Hall MMF 7se or a VPI along with a $1K catridge and $1K phono preamp but its not going to happen. I would rather upgrade my Maggies to the 1.7's of the 3.7i speakers. I would also like a high end DAC in the $3K range. Too much to buy and not enough money!

I have been doing a lot of reading on TT's, phono preamps and cartridges. Some people say to get a better TT and a lesser cart. and preamp. Others say to put more money into the cart. and preamp. I am leaning to the latter. Although the Bellari preamp leaves much to be desired, but with some tube rolling and a better wall wart the sound can be much improved. And I can't complain about a free phono preamp.

Why are you interested in getting into vinyl? Is it because the music you like is on vinyl OR because you hope for better sound? Which ever the reason or combination, I don't see much point doing half-heartedly: this would be courting disappointment.

I'll admit that I ceased to care about vinyl in the mid-90's when virtually all music became available on CD. My taste ran (and runs) to classical music, and by then it was clear that most old and pretty much ALL new releases were on CD.

But back in the day, I believed, as I still do, in the "weakest link in the chain" philosophy. And that applied to the TT/tonearm/cartridge/phono preamp combination. My best phono setup comprised a Sonus Blue cartridge on a Grace 707 tonearm on a French-made ERA belt-drive TT, all ahead of an Apt Holman preamp -- not too bad a setup in the pre-megabuck epoch.

[Feanor]

i bought the bellari BEFORE mikey reviewed it and came up with his answer before he did. not bad for the money but i would love to try a Schiit Mani with mc/mm capability, all ss for $160!

it has been well received in the press.

I can't speak to the Mani but I've been well pleased with the other Schiit products i've owned, viz.

• Modi DAC (original)
• Bifrost DAC (original)
• Bifrost Uber upgrade
• Asgard 2 headphone amp
• Bifrost Multibit upgrade -- a truly outstanding product for the money; great esp. with 16/44 recordings
• Gungnir Multibit DAC

[hifitommy]

i have to say that not nearly as much money need be spent on a phono setup to sound better than the equivalent amount spent on a digital player. hre is the easy way in:

Akai BT-500 Turntable with Bluetooth

this can be used with you stereo or directly to the computer. the cart is an AT at95e, pretty good sounding for the bucks but a better one could be fitted if preferred.

once bitten by the bug and you hear more music from your LPs than CDs, you will then know when upgrades should be considered. incremental changes can effect more than incremental gains.

here is the very same table branded as TEAC for less money:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00P9WK1BW...KD3RZD09YG0AXF

i have the akai version that my daughter got me for easy computer transfer. pretty good value. so far, so good.

[blackraven]

Why are you interested in getting into vinyl? Is it because the music you like is on vinyl OR because you hope for better sound? Which ever the reason or combination, I don't see much point doing half-heartedly: this would be courting disappointment.

I'll admit that I ceased to care about vinyl in the mid-90's when virtually all music became available on CD. My taste ran (and runs) to classical music, and by then it was clear that most old and pretty much ALL new releases were on CD.

But back in the day, I believed, as I still do, in the "weakest link in the chain" philosophy. And that applied to the TT/tonearm/cartridge/phono preamp combination. My best phono setup comprised a Sonus Blue cartridge on a Grace 707 tonearm on a French-made ERA belt-drive TT, all ahead of an Apt Holman preamp -- not too bad a setup in the pre-megabuck epoch.

I got back into vinyl because a friend gave me his Bellari Phono preamp and I have vinyl from the 70's and 80's. My system is modest. I bought a refurbished 1970's Thoren's TD-145 TT for $240 (I built a new plinth for it out of Cocobolo wood and lined the inside with GTMAT, made a new bottom cover out of Baltic Birch and put sorbothane feet on it.) and a good sounding Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge that I bought straight from Japan and saved about $200 off the local price in doing so.

I am using a 1950's Raytheon 12AX7 tube that has the long shiny black plates with my Bellari which has transformed the sound of the Bellari. The total cost of my analog system was about $500.

I find that well recorded vinyl sounds better in many respects than digital. The sound is more natural. Even my audiophile buddies who have heard my vinyl commented on this and are thinking about getting TT's. One of the guys is in his early 30's and had never heard vinyl before said he gets it and understands why people love vinyl. Vinyl will never replace my digital, it just complements it.

[Feanor]

I got back into vinyl because a friend gave me his Bellari Phono preamp and I have vinyl from the 70's and 80's. My system is modest. I bought a refurbished 1970's Thoren's TD-145 TT for $240 (I built a new plinth for it out of Cocobolo wood and lined the inside with GTMAT, made a new bottom cover out of Baltic Birch and put sorbothane feet on it.) and a good sounding Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge that I bought straight from Japan and saved about $200 off the local price in doing so.

I am using a 1950's Raytheon 12AX7 tube that has the long shiny black plates with my Bellari which has transformed the sound of the Bellari. The total cost was about $500.

I find that well recorded vinyl sounds better in many respects than digital. The sound is more natural. Even my audiophile buddies who have heard my vinyl commented on this and are thinking about getting TT's. One of the guys is in his early 30's and had never heard vinyl before said he gets it and understands why people love vinyl. Vinyl will never replace my digital, it just complements it.

Sounds like you have a nice rig that should give you very pleasing results.

In fact I still have my ERA TT and Grace tonearm; the tonearms needs a minor repair but I think it's a DIY. I also have a mediocre Technics direct drive TT that I was using occasionally about 3 years ago with a modest Denon h/o MC cartridge. I don't have a phono preamp but I would consider the Schiit hifitommy mentioned if I wanted to get back into it. The fact is, though, that as of the last time I listened I didn't find I like the vinyl better, (listening mostly to classical). It remains my opinion that the most of the vinyl/digital difference is in the mastering, not the medium.

[Mr Peabody]

I've read good reviews on a Ifi phono stage for a good performing inexpensive piece.

I have been told by a few analog guys I trust a rig is better off with a good turntable and less expensive cart opposed to the other way around. The Rega P3 was a great match with the Dynavector 10x5. When I got the upgrade bug I was told not to spend more money than the 10x5 with the P3 it was better to upgrade the table. The same 10x5 still sounding great on my Performance. I guess to complete the experiment I would have had to hear my Maestro on the P3.

It's difficult to find any "norms" or rules of thumb on analog, I found researching frustrating. I ended up with a pleasing rig though.

[blackraven]

I've read good reviews on a Ifi phono stage for a good performing inexpensive piece.

I have been told by a few analog guys I trust a rig is better off with a good turntable and less expensive cart opposed to the other way around. The Rega P3 was a great match with the Dynavector 10x5. When I got the upgrade bug I was told not to spend more money than the 10x5 with the P3 it was better to upgrade the table. The same 10x5 still sounding great on my Performance. I guess to complete the experiment I would have had to hear my Maestro on the P3.

It's difficult to find any "norms" or rules of thumb on analog, I found researching frustrating. I ended up with a pleasing rig though.

I think that it boils down to what cartridge and what table you are going with. You certainly don't want to pair a $2000 table with a $100 cartridge and visa vera. It is all about matching and the phono preamp needs to be considered.

My Thorens came with a 2m Red which was dreadful, grainy and bright. I went with the Nagaoka which costs 4 times more and the sound was transformed.

I think that you will get better sound pairing a $300-$500 table with a $200-$400 cartridge than a cheaper cartridge. As long as your phono preamp and the rest of your gear is up to the task

However, if you go with a more expensive table and a cheap cartridge, you can always upgrade the cartridge later.