Those who have TT

[frenchmon]

This saturday one of the local hifi shops here in St.Louis had a audio clinic. So I decided to go. In one of the rooms they had the new 15 series Rotel amp/preamp/RotelCDP driving the new B&W CDN9 speakers. But I was more interested in the new TT by Marantz which really is a Clearaudio TT made for Marantz. I asked the salesman to fire up the TT so he did. Now I owned a TT and had about a few hundred albums back in the 80's, so I was very familiar with the Chicago album that he played. The sound was awful. I mean it sounded like it was a cheap TT from the 80's....it was not clear or transparent at all. Now that TT cost $1700. Not having heard aTTt sense the 80's, I was thinking of getting back into albums... I was also under the impression that TT's of today where just as clear as digital. Am I wrong?

frenchmon

[blackraven]

What cartridge were they using? What did you not like about the sound?
And how did it sound using a CDP? What recording did you listen too? Some albums were not recorded well.

[frenchmon]

What cartridge were they using? What did you not like about the sound?
And how did it sound using a CDP? What recording did you listen too? Some albums were not recorded well.

Dont know what cartridge. It sounded like the albums I use to listen to before CD's where invented. It was not transparent and clear like CDs. The detail was not great at all and everything sounded flat and grainy. I was also very interested in the new Rotel CDP seeing that my 10 year old Rotel got wouped by the ERC-1. The CDP sounded great..better than the TT. It was the Chicago 2 Album. IF it was an original album, that may have been why it sounded like that I suppose. Yes?

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

No you're not wrong. I have my mid-fi tables inputted into my soundcard and it rivals CD quality. Period. They sound brilliant. Do you consider the dealer capable? Perhaps their set-up was shabby...

[frenchmon]

No you're not wrong. I have my mid-fi tables inputted into my soundcard and it rivals CD quality. Period. They sound brilliant. Do you consider the dealer capable? Perhaps their set-up was shabby...

Well seeing he had the $1700 TT going into the phono input on a new Rotel $1200 preamp, connected to a new Rotel amp... I think he is very able. He was a Brit and talked about British gear, so yes. I cant see how it was shabby. I checked it out. All connected with Audioquest and monster cable.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Well seeing he had the $1700 TT going into the phono input on a new Rotel $1200 preamp, connected to a new Rotel amp... I think he is very able. He was a Brit and talked about British gear, so yes. I cant see how it was shabby. I checked it out. All connected with Audioquest and monster cable.

frenchmon

Well then, knowledgeable dealer using TOTL gear gets a total flat and chitty sound from the TT. Mystery to me man. Anytime I get the pleasure of a demo or a listening session I am almost always floored by the TT quality. I usually come home in a funk, knowing I must now listen to my low end stuff. Thankfully audio memory is short lived.

[frenchmon]

Well then, knowledgeable dealer using TOTL gear gets a total flat and chitty sound from the TT. Mystery to me man. Anytime I get the pleasure of a demo or a listening session I am almost always floored by the TT quality. I usually come home in a funk, knowing I must now listen to my low end stuff. Thankfully audio memory is short lived.

Well I left there with the complete opposite experience.

frenchmon

[JohnMichael]

There are so many variables in the playback of vinyl that many folks became frustrated with the sound and switched to cd's. The cartridge has to be installed with the proper overhang (pivot to stylus distance), offset angle (to minimize tracing distortion) and vertical tracking angle (so the stylus sits in the record groove properly). After the cartridge is mounted you need to adjust tracking force and anti-skating force so the stylus remains in the groove and reads both sides of the groove equally so the two channels are producing the correct output.

Once the cartridge is installed the output is sent to a phono preamp and they do not always work well together electrically. The Rotel has a built in phono preamp and should work okay with most cartridges. There may have been a compatability issue. The turntable cables might have picked up interference.

I am just glad my FrankenRega sounds as good as it does and is not at all like your turntable experience. When you hear a good analog set up you will know it. The search is worth it.

[poppachubby]

No, original would have nothing to do with it. On a good player, at the price point you were listening to, a well used album would still sound fantastic. It would probably have some surface noise, clicks, pops, etc as well but the music would sound great still.

I can't imagine a dealer would be using crumby vinyl to demo a supposedly great TT. Not to mention, worn out vinyl does nothing good for the fancy cart that SHOULD be fitted on it.

[frenchmon]

No, original would have nothing to do with it. On a good player, at the price point you were listening to, a well used album would still sound fantastic. It would probably have some surface noise, clicks, pops, etc as well but the music would sound great still.

I can't imagine a dealer would be using crumby vinyl to demo a supposedly great TT. Not to mention, worn out vinyl does nothing good for the fancy cart that SHOULD be fitted on it.

I saw the album and the cover...the cover was in a plastic sleeve. The album was clean. Maybe the player had a cheap cartridge in it. I don't know, but it sounded just like my cheap TT's of the 80's. It did not have the resolution of CD's. I think what I am going to do is next time I visit MrPeabody, ask him to let me listen to his TT.

[poppachubby]

Frenchmon, all I have been listening to lately is vinyl based on the amazing sound I'm getting these days. My CD's are sitting collecting dust. Not only does it sound clear, bright and warm, it also has a lifelike quality that CD's don't have. It's this quality that makes it fun, and addictive.

The last couple of weeks, I find myself daydreaming at work about getting home, sipping some Blue Mountain coffee and listening to my tables.

Look at my sig, if I can have all of that with the gear I possess. Imagine how the guy with the TOTL is enjoying himself. Get yourself a respectable set up to start out and work up from there as your tastes develop.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, all I have been listening to lately is vinyl based on the amazing sound I'm getting these days. My CD's are sitting collecting dust. Not only does it sound clear, bright and warm, it also has a lifelike quality that CD's don't have. It's this quality that makes it fun, and addictive.

The last couple of weeks, I find myself daydreaming at work about getting home, sipping some Blue Mountain coffee and listening to my tables.

Look at my sig, if I can have all of that with the gear I possess. Imagine how the guy with the TOTL is enjoying himself. Get yourself a respectable set up to start out and work up from there as your tastes develop.

Hey now you talking..... Jamaican Blue Mountain Coffee! Thats good stuff man. I have some Jamaica me crazy coffee, but it can touch the Blue Mountain.

I've been seeing some nice tables lately and I thought I would see what all the fuse was about. That Marantz Table was stunningly beautiful. I'm thinking something was wrong like a cheap needle or something.

[blackraven]

I'm not a TT expert but I have not heard a TT yet that sounds better than a well recorded CD on a good CDP. The TT's I have listened too are in the $1K-2K range with good cartridges. I always find the comparable music to have less detail, transparency and it seems more compressed. I will say that TT's usually have a more pleasing tone but my Hybrid DAC and the good tube DAC's that I have heard have that pleasing tone. My good friend has a $1500 Clear Audio TT and a good cartridge and we are always comparing the TT sound to his CDP the Marantz 8001 and the CDP wins every time and SACD blows it away.

Just my 2 cents for what ever thats worth.

[JohnMichael]

I'm not a TT expert but I have not heard a TT yet that sounds better than a well recorded CD on a good CDP. The TT's I have listened too are in the $1K-2K range with good cartridges. I always find the comparable music to have less detail, transparency and it seems more compressed. I will say that TT's usually have a more pleasing tone but my Hybrid DAC and the good tube DAC's that I have heard have that pleasing tone. My good friend has a $1500 Clear Audio TT and a good cartridge and we are always comparing the TT sound to his CDP the Marantz 8001 and the CDP wins every time and SACD blows it away.

Just my 2 cents for what ever thats worth.

I prefer the sound of my FrankenRega over the Marantz SA 8001. I prefer the convenience of the SA 8001. If I sit in my chair to listen it is vinyl. If I am doing something and I want music I drop in a cd/sacd.

[frenchmon]

I'm not a TT expert but I have not heard a TT yet that sounds better than a well recorded CD on a good CDP. The TT's I have listened too are in the $1K-2K range with good cartridges. I always find the comparable music to have less detail, transparency and it seems more compressed. I will say that TT's usually have a more pleasing tone but my Hybrid DAC and the good tube DAC's that I have heard have that pleasing tone. My good friend has a $1500 Clear Audio TT and a good cartridge and we are always comparing the TT sound to his CDP the Marantz 8001 and the CDP wins every time and SACD blows it away.

Just my 2 cents for what ever thats worth.

Thanks Raven...that just may be it....CD's may have better resolution. The $1500 Clear Audio TT may be the sames as the Marantz TT

[poppachubby]

BTW John, I ripped Toxicity and am on my 3rd listen now. No more Cds for me, except for the car. With my soundcard, it's all ripped and filed exactly how i want it. Outstanding shuffle capability and playlist ability. not to mention, a properly archived collection will allow me to listen by genre even. Sorry, what was that? CD?

[Mr Peabody]

Next time you are over Frenchmon I will fire up the Rega. I suspect the inboard phono stage may have been the weak link but as JM said there are many variables.

[02audionoob]

My Music Hall MMF-5 would at least theoretically not be in the same league as the Marantz/Clearaudio turntable and like poppachubby my CDs have been collecting dust. Maybe you're going to find you just don't like the sound of vinyl.

[Smokey]

I was also under the impression that TT's of today where just as clear as digital. Am I wrong?

The problem is that no matter how good TT is, you are still handicaped by the format itself. Vinyls have much lower dynamics (ratio of loudest to softest note) than CDs, and they have much higher noise ratio than CD also. And old saying apply here that..."you can not do better than what the source is feeding the system".

I still have about 300 LPs in my closet which I collected thru the 80's, but there is no way they can replace their remaster CD version.

[poppachubby]

I still have about 300 LPs in my closet which I collected thru the 80's, but there is no way they can replace their remaster CD version.

What a shame Smokey, you should build some shelving and display them. Adds a nice dimension with the gear I think, even if they're not being played. I hope you have them in proper sleeves for storage. Smokey, love your LP's. Or, you could categorically list them and email it to me, with a plan to sell at a greatly reduced "AR" rate...

[Smokey]

What a shame Smokey, you should build some shelving and display them. Adds a nice dimension with the gear I think, even if they're not being played. I hope you have them in proper sleeves for storage. Smokey, love your LP's. Or, you could categorically list them and email it to me, with a plan to sell at a greatly reduced "AR" rate...

I like to display them to show off, but space is problem. The space is occupied by DVDs which I have roughly the same numbers.

I would say that most LPs are in pristine condition (and some are even unwrapped) and always kept in sleeves unless playing them. Got lucky because in early 80's, the record stores were practically giving LP away (for $3.99) to make room for CDs, and every week cherry picked from store inventory.

Have kept them for over 20 years, and probably will keep them forever as they bring back alot of nostalgic memories. Sorry Pop

There are quite a few CDs whose mastering exhibits lower dynamic range that well recorded analog. Also, at very low levels, Redbook doesn't have enough bits firing and goes deaf. That's where 24 bit recordings are superior. Analog can resolve musical content down the floor - even in the face of hiss and surface noise.

I agree that some CD are not up to their standards, but would you blame that on CD format or the company that is doing the mastering as pretty much the same thing can be said for LPs.

But you have a point the red book bits (16bits) does not capture all of recording resolution and this might be an area where LP are superior. The problem I see is that LPs have so many other shortcomings that resolution superiority get lost between them.

Fully 90% of CD's available today were mastered to be played in a car, and are mastered specifically to compress the music for maximum output, NOT dynamic range. Because of this most modern mastered CD's RARELY have 20dB of dynamic range, most average about 10-15dB!

That dynamic range sound awfully low. Any links to prove your point

[Geoffcin]

I agree that some CD are not up to their standards, but would you blame that on CD format or the company that is doing the mastering as pretty much the same thing can be said for LPs.

That dynamic range sound awfully low. Any links to prove your point

CD Compression Depression Music Industry Idiocracy
by Dan Banquer

http://www.audioholics.com/education...ion-depression

Quote;

"I just didn’t think you could actually compress music to a 3 db dynamic range. Once again I connect my oscilloscope and sure enough I see plenty of peaks digitally limited and going right to 0dbfs with a healthy amount of intersample peaking going above that. I find that with material such as this using the digital attenuator on the Winamp EQ set to –3 db (which actually measures –2.75 db) makes material like this somewhat less obnoxious, but I am left with the sad conclusion that hyper compression has come to Jazz."




Whatever Happened to Dynamic Range on Compact Discs?
By George Graham

http://georgegraham.com/compress.html


Quote;

"My CD player has a digital level display, and I am also able to take the digital output of a CD and run it into a computer editing system allowing statistical study of audio levels, and I am constantly appalled at how many CDs spent most of their time in the top 3-4 db of the 90 db available, with absolute digital maximum level being reached very frequently -- sometimes on every beat. Sophisticated digital compressors alleviate the all the horrible distortion that would normally happen from hitting the digital "brick wall," but nuances and the "airy" quality of the recording are murdered."



What Happened To Dynamic Range?

By Bob Speer

http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm

In regard to CD technology quote;

"Rather than use this new technology to take advantage of it's wide dynamic range, the music industry went in the opposite direction. They decided that louder is better. Suddenly, we found ourselves in a race to see whose CD was the loudest. The only way to make CDs louder was to keep compressing the signal more and more. That's where we are today. Everyone's trying to make their CD sound louder than everyone else's. The term that is used for this process is called, hot. Yes, most of today's music is recorded hot. The net result, distortion with a beat."

http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm



FWIW; I think that the continued reliance on obsolete playback technology will soon be at an end. With the breakthroughs in lossless digital storage I think both CD and LP will soon go the way of 8-track and wax cylinders.

[E-Stat]

I agree that some CD are not up to their standards, but would you blame that on CD format or the company that is doing the mastering as pretty much the same thing can be said for LPs...But you have a point the red book bits (16bits) does not capture all of recording resolution and this might be an area where LP are superior.

It's still a fundamental limitation of the Redbook format. I don't *blame* the engineers who arrived at the format because, unlike the analog domain, there was a huge fence (700 MB disc capacity at the time) they had to work around.

The problem I see is that LPs have so many other shortcomings that resolution superiority get lost between them.

There is no question they are far more inconvenient. I have two turntables because I've built my collection over the last 40 years and kept the rig I purchased when I was a teenager (Ariston RD-11s / SME 3009) when I bought a newer one. Of all the listening I do during the day on the computer, in the afternoon or weekends in the garage or anytime with the main system, I probably listen to vinyl no more than 10% of the time.

rw

[poppachubby]

It's still a fundamental limitation of the Redbook format. I don't *blame* the engineers who arrived at the format because, unlike the analog domain, there was a huge fence (700 MB disc capacity at the time) they had to work around.


There is no question they are far more inconvenient. I have two turntables because I've built my collection over the last 40 years and kept the rig I purchased when I was a teenager (Ariston RD-11s / SME 3009) when I bought a newer one. Of all the listening I do during the day on the computer, in the afternoon or weekends in the garage or anytime with the main system, I probably listen to vinyl no more than 10% of the time.

rw

It's certainly not an on-the-go format. But it gives back so much if you are willing to take the time. I spend the rest of my day between my portable or digital files form the comp.

[Smokey]

Geoffcin, couldn’t you find more longer links

After glancing over the links, all I have to say is that is a shame. Especially in George Graham link where he mentioned that several prominent mastering engineers have complained that they are being pushed to make the CDs they work on as loud as possible. Which mean over compression and lower dynamics. Money over matter wins again.

It's still a fundamental limitation of the Redbook format. I don't *blame* the engineers who arrived at the format because, unlike the analog domain, there was a huge fence (700 MB disc capacity at the time) they had to work around.

I Don't knwo if you remember this or not, but back in 80's the first pressing of Ledd Zepplin albums on CDs sounded so bad because the same master for LP were used to press CDs. But once th remastered CD came out under the supervision of Page himself, the sound quality was like night and day compare with earlier CDs.

So if a CD sound bad, the first blame should go the engineer-not the format