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Those who have TT
This saturday one of the local hifi shops here in St.Louis had a audio clinic. So I decided to go. In one of the rooms they had the new 15 series Rotel amp/preamp/RotelCDP driving the new B&W CDN9 speakers. But I was more interested in the new TT by Marantz which really is a Clearaudio TT made for Marantz. I asked the salesman to fire up the TT so he did. Now I owned a TT and had about a few hundred albums back in the 80's, so I was very familiar with the Chicago album that he played. The sound was awful. I mean it sounded like it was a cheap TT from the 80's....it was not clear or transparent at all. Now that TT cost $1700. Not having heard aTTt sense the 80's, I was thinking of getting back into albums... I was also under the impression that TT's of today where just as clear as digital. Am I wrong?
frenchmon
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What cartridge were they using? What did you not like about the sound?
And how did it sound using a CDP? What recording did you listen too? Some albums were not recorded well.
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No you're not wrong. I have my mid-fi tables inputted into my soundcard and it rivals CD quality. Period. They sound brilliant. Do you consider the dealer capable? Perhaps their set-up was shabby...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
What cartridge were they using? What did you not like about the sound?
And how did it sound using a CDP? What recording did you listen too? Some albums were not recorded well.
Dont know what cartridge. It sounded like the albums I use to listen to before CD's where invented. It was not transparent and clear like CDs. The detail was not great at all and everything sounded flat and grainy. I was also very interested in the new Rotel CDP seeing that my 10 year old Rotel got wouped by the ERC-1. The CDP sounded great..better than the TT. It was the Chicago 2 Album. IF it was an original album, that may have been why it sounded like that I suppose. Yes?
frenchmon
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No, original would have nothing to do with it. On a good player, at the price point you were listening to, a well used album would still sound fantastic. It would probably have some surface noise, clicks, pops, etc as well but the music would sound great still.
I can't imagine a dealer would be using crumby vinyl to demo a supposedly great TT. Not to mention, worn out vinyl does nothing good for the fancy cart that SHOULD be fitted on it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
No you're not wrong. I have my mid-fi tables inputted into my soundcard and it rivals CD quality. Period. They sound brilliant. Do you consider the dealer capable? Perhaps their set-up was shabby...
Well seeing he had the $1700 TT going into the phono input on a new Rotel $1200 preamp, connected to a new Rotel amp... I think he is very able. He was a Brit and talked about British gear, so yes. I cant see how it was shabby. I checked it out. All connected with Audioquest and monster cable.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Well seeing he had the $1700 TT going into the phono input on a new Rotel $1200 preamp, connected to a new Rotel amp... I think he is very able. He was a Brit and talked about British gear, so yes. I cant see how it was shabby. I checked it out. All connected with Audioquest and monster cable.
frenchmon
Well then, knowledgeable dealer using TOTL gear gets a total flat and chitty sound from the TT. Mystery to me man. Anytime I get the pleasure of a demo or a listening session I am almost always floored by the TT quality. I usually come home in a funk, knowing I must now listen to my low end stuff. Thankfully audio memory is short lived.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
No, original would have nothing to do with it. On a good player, at the price point you were listening to, a well used album would still sound fantastic. It would probably have some surface noise, clicks, pops, etc as well but the music would sound great still.
I can't imagine a dealer would be using crumby vinyl to demo a supposedly great TT. Not to mention, worn out vinyl does nothing good for the fancy cart that SHOULD be fitted on it.
I saw the album and the cover...the cover was in a plastic sleeve. The album was clean. Maybe the player had a cheap cartridge in it. I don't know, but it sounded just like my cheap TT's of the 80's. It did not have the resolution of CD's. I think what I am going to do is next time I visit MrPeabody, ask him to let me listen to his TT.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Well then, knowledgeable dealer using TOTL gear gets a total flat and chitty sound from the TT. Mystery to me man. Anytime I get the pleasure of a demo or a listening session I am almost always floored by the TT quality. I usually come home in a funk, knowing I must now listen to my low end stuff. Thankfully audio memory is short lived.
Well I left there with the complete opposite experience.
frenchmon
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Frenchmon, all I have been listening to lately is vinyl based on the amazing sound I'm getting these days. My CD's are sitting collecting dust. Not only does it sound clear, bright and warm, it also has a lifelike quality that CD's don't have. It's this quality that makes it fun, and addictive.
The last couple of weeks, I find myself daydreaming at work about getting home, sipping some Blue Mountain coffee and listening to my tables.
Look at my sig, if I can have all of that with the gear I possess. Imagine how the guy with the TOTL is enjoying himself. Get yourself a respectable set up to start out and work up from there as your tastes develop.
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I'm not a TT expert but I have not heard a TT yet that sounds better than a well recorded CD on a good CDP. The TT's I have listened too are in the $1K-2K range with good cartridges. I always find the comparable music to have less detail, transparency and it seems more compressed. I will say that TT's usually have a more pleasing tone but my Hybrid DAC and the good tube DAC's that I have heard have that pleasing tone. My good friend has a $1500 Clear Audio TT and a good cartridge and we are always comparing the TT sound to his CDP the Marantz 8001 and the CDP wins every time and SACD blows it away.
Just my 2 cents for what ever thats worth.
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There are so many variables in the playback of vinyl that many folks became frustrated with the sound and switched to cd's. The cartridge has to be installed with the proper overhang (pivot to stylus distance), offset angle (to minimize tracing distortion) and vertical tracking angle (so the stylus sits in the record groove properly). After the cartridge is mounted you need to adjust tracking force and anti-skating force so the stylus remains in the groove and reads both sides of the groove equally so the two channels are producing the correct output.
Once the cartridge is installed the output is sent to a phono preamp and they do not always work well together electrically. The Rotel has a built in phono preamp and should work okay with most cartridges. There may have been a compatability issue. The turntable cables might have picked up interference.
I am just glad my FrankenRega sounds as good as it does and is not at all like your turntable experience. When you hear a good analog set up you will know it. The search is worth it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
I'm not a TT expert but I have not heard a TT yet that sounds better than a well recorded CD on a good CDP. The TT's I have listened too are in the $1K-2K range with good cartridges. I always find the comparable music to have less detail, transparency and it seems more compressed. I will say that TT's usually have a more pleasing tone but my Hybrid DAC and the good tube DAC's that I have heard have that pleasing tone. My good friend has a $1500 Clear Audio TT and a good cartridge and we are always comparing the TT sound to his CDP the Marantz 8001 and the CDP wins every time and SACD blows it away.
Just my 2 cents for what ever thats worth.
I prefer the sound of my FrankenRega over the Marantz SA 8001. I prefer the convenience of the SA 8001. If I sit in my chair to listen it is vinyl. If I am doing something and I want music I drop in a cd/sacd.
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BTW John, I ripped Toxicity and am on my 3rd listen now. No more Cds for me, except for the car. With my soundcard, it's all ripped and filed exactly how i want it. Outstanding shuffle capability and playlist ability. not to mention, a properly archived collection will allow me to listen by genre even. Sorry, what was that? CD?
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Next time you are over Frenchmon I will fire up the Rega. I suspect the inboard phono stage may have been the weak link but as JM said there are many variables.
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My Music Hall MMF-5 would at least theoretically not be in the same league as the Marantz/Clearaudio turntable and like poppachubby my CDs have been collecting dust. Maybe you're going to find you just don't like the sound of vinyl.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
I was also under the impression that TT's of today where just as clear as digital. Am I wrong?
The problem is that no matter how good TT is, you are still handicaped by the format itself. Vinyls have much lower dynamics (ratio of loudest to softest note) than CDs, and they have much higher noise ratio than CD also. And old saying apply here that..."you can not do better than what the source is feeding the system".
I still have about 300 LPs in my closet which I collected thru the 80's, but there is no way they can replace their remaster CD version.
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If you think vinyl doesn't sound as good as CD because its range from the loudest to the softest note is less or because it isn't as clear then I'd say you should stay with digital. To enjoy vinyl, I think you have to change your expectations. My speakers, for instance, cannot produce bass as low or treble as high as some speakers that cost less but they sound great to me in the range I expect from them. Vinyl strikes me as a similar concept. Perhaps "clear" is a characteristic where digital is superior. But that's not all there is to music.
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Ironically, I am sounding like a broken record. I want all you guys to know that I am aware of the frequency to which I discuss my vinyl set-up. However, this is an audio forum so hey! With my Technics SL-Q2 DD into the Bellari and then into my soundcard, clarity is an understatement. The digital processing does not take away any of the vinyl's distinct tones or sounds, quite the opposite, it enhances the experience ten fold. I would have to be experiencing the equivelant of a table far greater in value. Detail and clarity is mind boggling...
A CD will give that clarity at a greater strength, and create the illusion of "better". IMO, it's just that. As noob said, you must adjust your listening for vinyl and forget any preconceived notions of CD format.
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I'm aware of the limited dynamic range but to me that's an over used criticism. When listening to my turntable this is something that just don't stick out. It's not like comparing mp3 to CD. And, don't forget an LP contains 100% of the original information which no digital source can yet say.
I believe there was a set up issue. A good turntable set up properly and played through equally as good equipment can be stunning. I also notice LP quality, enginering and audio wise, seems more critical than to a CD. Some of my old Rock albums are definitely not flattering.
I like both CD & TT, it's just different presentation and I can't really say one is better than the other. I couldn't do without either.
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Must admit that never owned a top line Turntable, but what really killed the LP format for me was this experiment:
(This is probably 20th time telling this story in AR :D)
I have both Sinatra capital years on CD and LP and decided to compare both format. On CD if you listen closely, one can hear Sinatra breathing in before singing the next line. But on the LP in the same spot, the breathing is not distinguishable because of the surface noise. And that pretty much told me which one is superior format.
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I still believe that music from a TT sounds compressed. And don't take it as me dissing TT's because I like the sound and would like to get one.
That Marantz TT got good reviews. I had been looking at it a few months ago, its no slouch. I agree, it could have been the source and/or phono preamp. For a TT to sound good, every piece of the puzzle must be good-the source material, TT, phonopreamp, cables, and Cartridge as well as its alignment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Frenchmon, all I have been listening to lately is vinyl based on the amazing sound I'm getting these days. My CD's are sitting collecting dust. Not only does it sound clear, bright and warm, it also has a lifelike quality that CD's don't have. It's this quality that makes it fun, and addictive.
The last couple of weeks, I find myself daydreaming at work about getting home, sipping some Blue Mountain coffee and listening to my tables.
Look at my sig, if I can have all of that with the gear I possess. Imagine how the guy with the TOTL is enjoying himself. Get yourself a respectable set up to start out and work up from there as your tastes develop.
Hey now you talking..... Jamaican Blue Mountain Coffee! Thats good stuff man. I have some Jamaica me crazy coffee, but it can touch the Blue Mountain.
I've been seeing some nice tables lately and I thought I would see what all the fuse was about. That Marantz Table was stunningly beautiful. I'm thinking something was wrong like a cheap needle or something.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
I'm not a TT expert but I have not heard a TT yet that sounds better than a well recorded CD on a good CDP. The TT's I have listened too are in the $1K-2K range with good cartridges. I always find the comparable music to have less detail, transparency and it seems more compressed. I will say that TT's usually have a more pleasing tone but my Hybrid DAC and the good tube DAC's that I have heard have that pleasing tone. My good friend has a $1500 Clear Audio TT and a good cartridge and we are always comparing the TT sound to his CDP the Marantz 8001 and the CDP wins every time and SACD blows it away.
Just my 2 cents for what ever thats worth.
Thanks Raven...that just may be it....CD's may have better resolution. The $1500 Clear Audio TT may be the sames as the Marantz TT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
There are so many variables in the playback of vinyl that many folks became frustrated with the sound and switched to cd's. The cartridge has to be installed with the proper overhang (pivot to stylus distance), offset angle (to minimize tracing distortion) and vertical tracking angle (so the stylus sits in the record groove properly). After the cartridge is mounted you need to adjust tracking force and anti-skating force so the stylus remains in the groove and reads both sides of the groove equally so the two channels are producing the correct output.
Once the cartridge is installed the output is sent to a phono preamp and they do not always work well together electrically. The Rotel has a built in phono preamp and should work okay with most cartridges. There may have been a compatability issue. The turntable cables might have picked up interference.
I am just glad my FrankenRega sounds as good as it does and is not at all like your turntable experience. When you hear a good analog set up you will know it. The search is worth it.
Well if that's the case....I will continue to seek for that ultimate TT experience. Thanks JM
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