Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: subsonic tones

  1. #1
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,226

    subsonic tones

    i now have a luxman pd282 tt with a ortofon om5e cartridge on it, when i play a record and turn the volume up (halfway up) my woofers start to move when there's no bass at all, i think i once read something about it on the forum but that thread is gone. Are these subsonic tones that we can't hear but the speakers can give? Is it bad ffor your speakers?? what to do about it???
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  2. #2
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Long Island, New York
    Posts
    494

    I don't think it's bad for...

    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    i now have a luxman pd282 tt with a ortofon om5e cartridge on it, when i play a record and turn the volume up (halfway up) my woofers start to move when there's no bass at all, i think i once read something about it on the forum but that thread is gone. Are these subsonic tones that we can't hear but the speakers can give? Is it bad ffor your speakers?? what to do about it???
    ...your speakers (played at reasonable levels), but it's wasting power.

    Another possible problem is a cart/arm mismatch.

    My "woofer-pumping" problem went away when we moved from our suspended floor apartment to our slab floor condo. All the while I thought it was the filter thing.

    Sorry, I'm no expert, but I'm sure you can remedy the problem with something outboard. My Bellari has a built-in that I engage, but there is really no discernable difference, using or not, visually or otherwise.

    Good luck...

  3. #3
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,226
    i've done some 'investigations' and stated that when i put my hand on the tt and push it down a little bit, the speakers move harder then otherwise, also, they move less/not when there aren't any bass tones, i guess this could mean that the woofer-pumping is created by shocks that the basses create. any other suggestions??
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  4. #4
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Long Island, New York
    Posts
    494

    If I recall correctly...

    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    i've done some 'investigations' and stated that when i put my hand on the tt and push it down a little bit, the speakers move harder then otherwise, also, they move less/not when there aren't any bass tones, i guess this could mean that the woofer-pumping is created by shocks that the basses create. any other suggestions??
    .."HiFiTommy" has tried a bicycle tube under the table for some isolation. I'm sure he'll chime in the not-too-distant future.

    Some say suppress (like my sprung Perspective), some say funnel the vibes (cones). Might be something you'll have to play with.

    Again, sorry, I haven't experimented with different solutions. I simply lived with flapping woofers until we moved. Audioasylum.com might be able to help if you don't get too many responses here.

    There are a LOT of vinylheads there, mucho experience.

    By the way, just realized you were from Belgium... my friend recently returned (still drunk, along with a virus that made him see double...lol) from Antwerp. His wife drove him around all day to different pubs/restaurants.

    He loved every minute of it, met a lot of foreigners/locals - even someone that resides 20 minutes from us! What are the chances?

    I'm enjoying a Corsendonk as we speak (err, uhh) type...

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,890
    It's pretty normal to see some kind of subsonic rumble with vinyl playback, since the turntable, the audio rack, feedback, and the vinyl itself are all potential resonant sources. A decent rig that's properly calibrated can minimize it, but vinyl is an imperfect medium and this rumbling is just part of it. Part of the reason why you see the cone movement on speakers is also because these frequencies are below the tuned frequency on most ported speakers, which means that they are in the range where the back pressure from the port no longer dampens the cone movement. You don't hear anything, but the speaker and the amp are both getting worked.

    Amps used to frequently include subsonic filters that roll off the inaudible frequencies, because all of that undampened cone movement could also affect how the higher frequencies sound. Nowadays, you can still find those switches on some preamps and phono preamps. Here's a link to a previous discussion on this subject.

    Why do bass drivers go nuts when playing vinyl
    Last edited by Woochifer; 08-21-2006 at 02:02 PM.
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
    Panasonic VIERA TH-C50FD18 50" 1080p
    Paradigm Reference Studio 40, CC, and 20 v.2
    Adire Audio Rava (EQ: Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124)
    Yamaha RX-V800
    Dual CS5000 (Ortofon OM30 Super)
    Denon DVD-758 (DVD-1940ci)
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR22
    Oppo Digital HM-31
    Logitech Harmony 650
    iPad 3


    The Neverending DVD/BD Collection

    Subwoofer Setup and Parametric EQ Results *Dead Link*

  6. #6
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,593
    Sometimes the cone pumping you are seeing can be greatly reduced by changing the cartridge.
    You could try changing the effective mass of the tonearm by adding a weight to the headshell and re balancing and re-setting the stylus force. This would increase the effective mass of the tonearm. This would make the cartridge appear to the TT as having higher compliance. However, in this instance I believe a less compliant cartridge would help. There is no easy way to decrease the mass of the tonearm. Decreasing the mass of the tonearm will effectively lower the compliance of the cartridge. Most MC cartridges have lower compliance than MM thats why most of them work better in medium to high mass arms. A Shure cartridge with the stabilizer brush may help with your problem. Shure used to mention that was one of the reasons they put them on their cartridges.
    ARC SP9 MKIII preamp,VPI HW19jr, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1 head amp, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts
    Marantz CD63SE CD,Yamaha DVD-S1800, MSB DAC
    Accuphase T101 tuner,Nakamichi LX-5, ZX-7 Teac V-7010
    Lexicon MC8 surround processor
    2 Adcom GFA-545,2 radically modified Dynaco MK3's,2 bridged Crown XLS-402, Paradigm X-30, Behringer CX2310, DSP1124P
    2 12" Transmission Line Subs (PASS DIY El-Pipe-O), Acoustat Spectra 22 ESL's (fronts), Acoustat Model 1 ESL's/SPW-1 Woofer (rears)

  7. #7
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,226

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy C
    By the way, just realized you were from Belgium... my friend recently returned (still drunk, along with a virus that made him see double...lol) from Antwerp. His wife drove him around all day to different pubs/restaurants.

    He loved every minute of it, met a lot of foreigners/locals - even someone that resides 20 minutes from us! What are the chances?

    I'm enjoying a Corsendonk as we speak (err, uhh) type...
    lol, thnx, glad to hear he liked belgium, hope you like the beer, you should also try belgian chocolate if you get the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Amps used to frequently include subsonic filters that roll off the inaudible frequencies, because all of that undampened cone movement could also affect how the higher frequencies sound. Nowadays, you can still find those switches on some preamps and phono preamps.
    i know about the subsonic filters, my current amp haves one, but in a few days my new amp will arrive and then i don't have the filter anymore, but, now after alot of drastic changes in my room (moved the bed, removed all chairs, used matras as room acoustics, moved amp, moved tt and placed it on something higher then the ground) the cones move less.

    thnx for all the help btw
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  8. #8
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,690
    I used to have the same problem, drove me nuts.

    Try getting yourself a very sturdy and heavy table for your TT. I'm prettu sure your problems are caused by external vibration. One way to check this is to careful walk around your TT while it's spinning. If you woofers start chucking more, then try placing sheets of concrete (45cm x 45cm x 10cm) under your TT. Cones and Spikes work best under your TT. Try something like these. http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind..._id%%&pid=1603

    Happy BD. Mine was on the 20th.
    Peace

  9. #9
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,226

    Smile

    thnx jrhymeammo, the the spikes (somekind of) are in consideration, in the meanwhile, finding a place to sleep is difficult, since half my room is now set for audio and the other half is desk, so i guess i'll have to place my bed in the middle for tonight
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Central Ohio
    Posts
    6,242
    Here is a link to a thread covering some of the same issues you are having. In the thread are some good links that might help.

    Cartridges with brush good for subsonic problem?

    The woofer pumping you see when playing records is more obvious with ported speakers and much less with acoustic suspension. If your speakers are ported you may still see some pumping even if everything is working well together.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, Funk Firm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cone, Ortofon OM20, Moon 110LP/PSU
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speakers
    Mobile Fidelity OML1's/Bell'O 224 stands
    Cables
    AQ Rocket 44's, Diamondback XLR's & IC's

  11. #11
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,226

    Wink partially fixed

    tried some things (cushions, lego bricks, wooden plates, combination of all the previous, a lego rack (plastic rack with boxes in them for lego) with the bricks and the wooden plate on) and finally i was going round my room and felt what was moving due of basses and i found that the matrass that i put against the wall behind the speakers and the tt was moving from the basses, i removed it and now the woofer pumping is alot less i have to turn the volume half way open before it starts to pump (half way up is really loud) so it's partially fixed. thanks for all the advice, i'll remember it and make use of it in the future, when i move out to my own house
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Latest AudioReview Articles

Hot Deals

Latest News

AudioReview on Facebook