So vinyl isn't dead eh?

Yesterday I was in Borders buying some books. The "kid" behind the counter was looking up a book about Jackie Kennedy Onasis in his computer terminal for my sister. He had never heard of her. Or Jack Benny. Or Kim Novak. Or Jane Mansfield. The JFK era was to him the way the Civil War was to me when I was in school, ancient history. He had never seen a vinyl phonograph record, or a turntable in his life, only heard about them. He mentioned that he read that some audiophiles think they sound better than compact discs. He was neither stupid nor uneducated. He was a 19 year old computer geek type who is studying for a degree in computer engineering. I felt very old.

Rumours of vinyl's death have been exaggerated. It has certainly been on the critical list for quite some time but if you ask me it shows some signs of recovery.

There are 16 shops selling vinyl within half an hour of either my home or my office. 16!!! hardly the end methinks..

My record collection is to big for me to ever replace it...As long as I can find replacement parts for my Technics turntable, or a decent turntable cheap, I'll probably listen to records until I die.

I would venture that vinyl will stick around for at least another 60 years, for nostalgic value if nothing else.
Seriously, does anyone still own casettes? (Okay, I still have a few).

Oh here was the guy's joke;
Q: How many grooves are there on a phonograph record?
A: One.

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Originally Posted by skeptic

He was neither stupid nor uneducated. He was a 19 year old computer geek type who is studying for a degree in computer engineering. I felt very old.

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The same can be said for classical music. Reports of its impending death have existed for years. Waddaya think the Gen Y-er would say if you asked him which rip of Beethoven's Ninth was his favorite?

rw

The mainstream market may have transitioned over to CDs, and the audiophile market may be debating over whether SACD's their heir apparent to the beloved LP, but in the DJ market, vinyl is the undisputed king. Look over any list of the world's top club DJs -- all of them mix with turntables, and very few of them even bother with any kind of digital source in their rigs. All of the world's top dance clubs will have a rig with at least two Technics SL-1200s, while there's no guarantee that you'll even find a CD player in all of those sets. And you don't even have to venture into a high profile danceteria to see turntables showcased. Increasingly, restaurants, bars, lounges, and retail stores book DJs to add to the atmosphere, and in almost all cases, the DJs use turntables. Show me a DJ who only works with CDs or digital music servers, and I'll show you a hackmeister who's barely good enough for frat parties and weddings. The example of someone who's never heard a phonograph is obviously someone who doesn't get out much.

Even for people like me who don't use turntables for mixing, a lot of the music in hip-hop, electronica, house, nu-jazz, or any number of dance remixes, is not available in digital format. Keeping a turntable has nothing to do with legacy compatibility or sound quality or what not, for me it's a necessity in order to keep up with CURRENT music.

So long as you got DJs mixing with vinyl and a steady flow of 12" singles, vinyl will keep going indefinitely. I've always said that the Technics SL-1200 is the ultimate cockroach in all of audio because it will outlive all digital formats.

Of course LP is not dead. When you can buy the latest albums from Springsteen, Madonna, the Dixie Chicks, Sarah McLauchlan, Moby, enter rock group here_______ and reprints of the Dave Brubeck Quartet and Beatles, Stones, etc then there is obviously a big market...not counting all the remixed singles for the clubs.

Sure the market isn't nearly as big as Cd but I suspect VHS will die before LP dies. As soon as you can buy the recordable DVD player for $100.00 VHS will only be around for those camcordering VHS.

Hell when a big box chain here started selling LPs again you know there is a market.

Sadly HMV here carried a rather impressive classical secion - a NAXOS wall of cds for $6-$7.00 Cdn each. They removed their entire classical section including Naxos....people are not willing to buy Beethoven for $6.00 when Britny Spears is available for $15.00 :rolleyes:

- Roll Over Beethoven at that thought :mad:

Future shop has classical music maybe 80 cds. Mostly Maria Calas and Andrea Botcheli (Sp?) and the 3 tenors and Charlotte Church -- anyone who has managed to produce name recognition or has a video on MTV like Church gets through their doors.

The opther poster is probably right, classical music seems to decline rather fast every year to the point where it is extremely difficult to find anything...I have never ever seen an audiophile label like Reference Recordings or Chesky actually in a store...and a lot of the Dutche Gramophone stuff so highly prized on LP is truly awful on cd - maybe it's just the one's I've been unlucky enough to get but NAXOS for less than half the price usually sounds pretty good. But then they don't get the bigger names do they? Sometimes.

I have been thinking of going to my University and picking up the complete Piano works of Beethoven(9 discs I think from London or Phillips).

Skeptic, you know how it goes those days become weeks then months followed by years and centuries. With out knowing your age I know what you mean. Apparently I have been left in the dark ages as I listen to CD's and records when I should be using MP3's and computers. I have been told that computers are better faster and cheaper, however I must be buying the wrong ones. Mine do not last that long and are not worth 10 cents on the dollar when they are three years old. Also must have a preference for old style stereo equipment, should do a DBT some day.

Shouln't the answer be usually one groove per side, once saw a Monty Python record that had two grooves on one side.

Lastly you didn't think that all that wisdom that you aquired overtime came without strings attached. The price is old age.

Have A Great Day and enjoy the music as life is to short

After that, who knows? My 22 year old son is very fond of it, along with a 23 year old friend of his. They have both heard it all of their lives and I expect it will live for them as long as they live as well. Who cares what a 19 year old Border's geek thinks or knows? If he's lucky, he'll get to hear some vinyl in his lifetime and maybe he'll then become a vinyl geek. Ya' never know. I know 30 year olds who have never heard vinyl but their opinions of music mean absolutely nothing to me. They listen on their HT systems and are happy. I've heard them and I would not be happy. To each his own.
Bill

Since I have upgraded my turntable l am counting on vinyl being around as long as Classical music has been. Well hopefully not before I die or cannot hear anymore.

Many people have asked has anyone ever heard turntable rumble. I can honestly say that I could not hear it on my old Dual tt, however compared to the michell tt it sure has a lot of background noise. Could not really hear it before, but with a better turntable I noticed the difference. It is just more quieter, clearer and better. Now we will have to start searching for records again.

RGA if you read this what is the availability of vinyl in the Vancouver area. Presently I am just working down the road from you, well if you can accept the Alaska Highway as just down the road. Last month when I was in town picked a great day, wet, very wet all day.

I have been hearing a lot of good things about vinyl recordings.
My dad has an old technics back from the 80s that he doesnt use any more. You guys think it's still good to go? Those needles dont go for too much do they?

I guess if I'm spending money on speakers and all that, I might as well try out vinyl.

thanks to the fools who dumped their LPs in the 80s, i have about 4-5k LPs acquired for 50cents or a buck each. i still get those prices in a couple of stores here in LA.

http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org...rd_stores.html

that site should help the rest of your that are so inclined.

i have two TTs hooked up to my arc sp3c, and a couple more in rest mode. several carts are mounted in headshells and ready for swapping, some MM and some MC.

i can go to virgin and tower and buy new vinyl plus other local stores have it as well. more and better TTs can be purchased now than ten years ago.

the death knell hasnt struck.

...let's see what Antony Michaelson of Musical Fidelity has to say. MF has just issued their first turntable... not in 1963, not in 1973 but in 2003. Anyway, Mr Michaelson had a few comments that are pertinent to the topic:

"If people think that digital sounds better than analog, they must be deaf".

"There is a groundswell of people who are fed up with all this digital crap and they just want to have something that sounds human".

This from a company president that has made numerous CD players in the past and have just now introduced their first turntable. Yes, vinyl is dead and so are the tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of music lovers and audiophiles that have recognized its superiority over CD. We are as dead as the sound of CD's. The good news is that we are in audio heaven! :)

I like those quotes! The first one is a little over the top, however. I may start collecting these quotes like some of the measurement folks collect citations. :)

who is referred to on page 83 in the latest stereophile as PLAYING on a new SACD/LP project for stereophile. now THIS one may be worth buying. quite unlike POEM which i bought (LP) many years ago that had CRAP for music on it. that record was so bad musically that i cant tell you how good the sound is.

we shall see.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Of course LP is not dead. When you can buy the latest albums from Springsteen, Madonna, the Dixie Chicks, Sarah McLauchlan, Moby, enter rock group here_______ and reprints of the Dave Brubeck Quartet and Beatles, Stones, etc then there is obviously a big market...not counting all the remixed singles for the clubs.

Sure the market isn't nearly as big as Cd but I suspect VHS will die before LP dies. As soon as you can buy the recordable DVD player for $100.00 VHS will only be around for those camcordering VHS.

Hell when a big box chain here started selling LPs again you know there is a market.

Sadly HMV here carried a rather impressive classical secion - a NAXOS wall of cds for $6-$7.00 Cdn each. They removed their entire classical section including Naxos....people are not willing to buy Beethoven for $6.00 when Britny Spears is available for $15.00 :rolleyes:

- Roll Over Beethoven at that thought :mad:

Future shop has classical music maybe 80 cds. Mostly Maria Calas and Andrea Botcheli (Sp?) and the 3 tenors and Charlotte Church -- anyone who has managed to produce name recognition or has a video on MTV like Church gets through their doors.

The opther poster is probably right, classical music seems to decline rather fast every year to the point where it is extremely difficult to find anything...I have never ever seen an audiophile label like Reference Recordings or Chesky actually in a store...and a lot of the Dutche Gramophone stuff so highly prized on LP is truly awful on cd - maybe it's just the one's I've been unlucky enough to get but NAXOS for less than half the price usually sounds pretty good. But then they don't get the bigger names do they? Sometimes.

I have been thinking of going to my University and picking up the complete Piano works of Beethoven(9 discs I think from London or Phillips).

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I see turntables in Best Buy again as well as other places. Granted, they are pretty lousy ones but BB hadn't sold 'tables in years to my knowledge.

I found a 15 LP set of Beethoven's complete piano works but it's pretty awful sounding. The piano is tinkly and small. I can't recall the label but I've been told it's kind of the K-Tel of the 90's - cheap prices and lousy masterings. Even LP's can be made to sound poor. I'd bet that just about any CD would sound at least this good and likely better. On the other hand, I also found quite a few DG's on vinyl and they are spectacular. Three of them I already owned on CD and you're correct in these cases that the LP is much better.

Do you perchance have Border's Book and Music shops in Canada? The prices are high but they have row upon row of good classical music and jazz. Gift certificates from this store are what I ask for from obscure relatives for Christmas. It's easy to find and doesn't take time or thought. And I turn them into new music which for me is more rewarding than a bobble-head doll or a new sweater.

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Originally Posted by rb122

I found a 15 LP set of Beethoven's complete piano works but it's pretty awful sounding. The piano is tinkly and small. I can't recall the label but I've been told it's kind of the K-Tel of the 90's - cheap prices and lousy masterings. Even LP's can be made to sound poor. I'd bet that just about any CD would sound at least this good and likely better. On the other hand, I also found quite a few DG's on vinyl and they are spectacular. Three of them I already owned on CD and you're correct in these cases that the LP is much better.

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It's on the Murray Hill label and it sounds like hammered sh*t. I sold my copy. Maybe you're the knucklehead that bought it! :) Don't sweat it - I bought it first! Yes, occasionally CD's sound better than vinyl.

Absolutely agree about DG. Some of the CD's are decent but the vinyl is outstanding! Former poster Dougman that I've mentioned is a collector of DG vinyl and I've sold him a few that I had duplicates of.

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Originally Posted by DMK

It's on the Murray Hill label and it sounds like hammered sh*t. I sold my copy. Maybe you're the knucklehead that bought it! :) Don't sweat it - I bought it first! Yes, occasionally CD's sound better than vinyl.

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Yes, that's the one and maybe I AM the one that bought yours! Want it back? :)

I can associate with the Dalek....

Two local shoppes have closed down. One sold Only Vinyl, the other sold only classical music.

That's the bad news.

The good news is this:

At the Bristol hi-fi show last week, *EVERY* two channel sound system had vinyl to demo with! There were a slew of new turntables.

In the same period of time this past 365 days, SACD sold something to the effect of 100,000 units.

There were 600,000 vinyl units sold. That doesn't count the used gear/lps etc.

SACD has not taken off very well. It has been glacially slow at coming out with a few modest titles. Just imagine the growth CD had from it's inception 4-5 years later.

Yet vinyl has survived and is surging back.

After my recent listening I can see why. Even modest Rega and Michell turntables slaughtered the more expensive digital sources at the Bristol show.

Vinyl will not die for some time. Especially when many popular artists release on vinyl. IIRC Eddie Vetter of Pearl jam said: "We did it because vinyl sounds better". I bet the guys from Pink Floyd, and Boston would agree...among many.

undefinedundefinedundefined If you asked me i would say that the record industry is accually growing! you can find new turntables littered all over the inter net. just the word "turntable" on google would bring you to a million websites that sell them for all different prices. although many people think it is dieing all we would need is a company to mass produce the newer soundtracks and every kid around my age (14) would have one in a split second. i was born when cd's were starting to take over. but when i heard the rich sound and the elegance of that shining black vinyl twirling on the table i got hooked! i probably have a collection of about 500 and would probably have alot more if it were easier to find records up-to-date with the main streem artists that the "younger" generation listens to. i usually get my friends to come over just to listen to te micheal jacson (not soo populare nemore) and REO Wagon albums i have. They too think that it has a higher quality sound oh and "retro". i got two friends to buy turntables off ebay. sure cd is so much "clearer" but vinyl is living, its true sound heard the way it was recorded.
Damian Carvalho

P.S. does anyone know where to get a record recorder? i would really like on so that i could put all of my cds on vinyl.

Incorrect. The answer is two. A vinyl record has two sides.
Heh-heh.

I suppose someone (or all of you) will throw some flames my way but since I'm new here and my asbestos suit has not been singed in any way - so far - so I'll risk the following :eek: .

I read through this entire thread from beginning to end in one sitting without skipping a beat. After a dozen or so posts, I was expecting that the next post (or the next one, or the next one, ...) to begin explaining the superiority of plastic mono 78 rpm's. I was glad to see that this regression did not happen.

I will agree that the K-tel's of this world are omnipresent and will continue to be. Some of the best vinyl is clearly superior to some CD's, the opposite is also true.

And maybe someone can pick me up on this one. My "conversion" to CD's happened mucho years ago, very specifically on the Supertramp Album "Breakfast in America". I simply loved these guys and when the audiophile series album finally came out, I was one of the first to purchase it. My ears went WOW in comparison to the "consumer" album I had been playing.

One of my buddies who was a Kyocera distributor let me borrow one of his demo CD players - $800 at the time !!!! - and as a test I purchased the CD version of the same album.

In comparison, the audiophile series vinyl sounded like a mono recording compared to the CD ! The dynamic range was simply - and finally THERE . And so I was sold and never really looked back. Over the years, I picked up some bad stuff, no doubt about it. But I can say the same for my vinyl purchases.

Was there something wrong with my ears ??

Yes, I do listen to classical, jazz, etc ...

Ray

any good CDP can sound better than a $100 tt. the plastic pmount variety of tables just dont cut it most of the time. once you get to about $200 worth, turntables outplay CD handily. a $200 tt vs a $200 CDP isnt a contest. the vinyl is superior at that level.

up the ante to $400 and the gap widens in favor of vinyl, and on up the line as well. records are harder to take care of but warts and all, they still have a more relaxed and fulfilling sound.

new music is more available on CD but hopefully that will change back to a better balance, there ARE artists releasing new music on vinyl. there are an increasing number SACDs being sold and they share some of that relaxed feeling found on LPs.

one of the real benefits is the low cost of most used vinyl, especially if you live in a large metropolitan city.

so getting a table for about $500 would set you up fairly well, especially if used. dynamic range is better on vinyl in case you dont know. that statement will probably cause a war so be prepared, i am.

As Hifitommy asked, what turntable/arm/cartridge were you using? Were your LP's cleaned and pristine? Or maybe you simply prefer the CD! Yes, that may seem incredulous to a lot of us but who are we to question your ears and preferences?

I actually went backwards with storage mediums. My parents had old beat up LP's and I heard that sound but when I was old enough to acquire a collection of my own, the CD has displaced the LP as the consumers medium of choice. I bought CD's. As a musician, I was painfully aware of how far away they were from the sound of live musical instruments but I suppose subconsciously, I reasoned that it was problems with the recording and playback of the discs.

When I first heard vinyl done properly, I was absolutely floored! FINALLY, violins sounded like violins, guitars like guitars, and saxophones like saxophones without the added distortion of what I had heard on CD. Rare in my collection is the CD that outperforms the same LP. I've found myself repurchasing numerous pieces of music I own on CD with the vinyl version and a direct comparison reveals that the LP usually sounds much better.

I'm told that there is nothing within the CD recording or playback process that would add distortion to CD's. Perhaps that is so but if it is, recording engineers are producing inferior product these days. As it stands, I can't really say that one medium is superior to another but I can say that in my experience (and I now own a few thousand of each medium), the final result is that the LP is more musically satisfying to me, more "live" sounding to me and more accurate to me. Your experience may vary.

You guys are giving me the urge to pull out my turntable - if I can find it, it's somewhere in the attic, well stored in its original box - and try some vinyl.

My turntable was a Technics, can't remember the model (will have to find it) but it was one of the really good ones. I took great care with my records, used white lintless gloves to handle, no one touched them except moi, etc ...

You see, I haven't played a vinyl record since that amazing "Breakfast in America" CD that converted me. Of course, back then I had younger ears and most likely, less refned tastes.

OK, you guys have convinced me ... vinyl is now on my "list of things to do". Hopefully, my turntable still works after 20 years or so in storage.

GREAT thread ... thanks :cool: !

Ray

I really hadn't intended to restart the endless debate over which is better vinyl or cd, again. I'm sure among audiophiles, it will never go away. I'm firmly on one side and if you've read my postings in the past, you know which one it is. What I was really getting at is that time marches on. Unlike vacuum tubes which have had a minor resurgence in the last few years (although you may have noticed that there are no new ones being designed, just inferior copies of the ones made 40 to 50 years ago in $hitholes like Serbia, China, and Russia), nobody is pressing new vinyl on a serious basis. Those under thirty may not know it but in vinyl's heyday, you could find it everywhere. Not only in record stores but there wasn't a department store in America or a five and dime that didn't have a record department. And the advertising was also everywhere. Every major department and record store used to advertise discounts on records in every Sunday paper, usually with full page ads. Who were the biggies? Sam Goody was vast with 3 stores on 41st street in NYC just to hold it all. EJ Korvette had a big department. So did the Record Hunter. And then Tower Records came to New York. Where are they now? All gone. Sam Goody was sold to Musicland USA in 1984 and now has cheap cd outlets in shopping malls. Tower Records went bankrupt recently and Korvettes is ancient history. As for the others, they'll sell some cds but it seems more out of just being able to say yes we have a cd department too. It seems to me the recording industry is dying and the vinyl phonograph record industry is reduced to a small niche market of die hard audiophiles. To most people, they are more like museum pieces than technology.

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Originally Posted by skeptic

nobody is pressing new vinyl on a serious basis.

the vinyl phonograph record industry is reduced to a small niche market of die hard audiophiles. To most people, they are more like museum pieces than technology.

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First, if by serious you mean not in large numbers, you are correct. If you mean that nobody is earnest and sincere about producing vinyl, you are not correct. Vinyl production is in a bit of a resurgence with labels such as Thrill Jockey and Chesky producing quality vinyl. And they're quite serious about it. Astride that, production and sales of turntables and LP playing accoutrements are at their highest levels since the middle 1980's. But vinyl will not, of course, be back with any strength resembling what it had prior to the CD's climb to prominence.

Second, yes vinyl is a small niche market, mostly comprised of audiophiles i.e people who care about sound quality. The mass market has declared that they are backing the CD. Mass markets are, by definition, large. They are NOT, by definition, correct. In this case, they took the convenience road, IMHO. Quality isn't always backed by the numbers of people. McDonald's is a case in point.

I agree with your final statement. But a Rembrandt painting is also a museum piece. Has Rembrandt been bettered? Well... that's a personal judgment call, the very same type of which the poster you've responded to will make despite any protestations or pleas by you and I. And that's the way it should be.

When I said serious, I meant in large quantity with large sales volume. While there may be some small companies still pressing vinyl for the niche market, it is insignificant in terms of the overall market and in terms of the market for vinyl that once existed.

As for convenience versus quality, I don't think that holds up. Cassette tapes are far more convenient than vinyl. You can play them in your car, while you are traveling, or just about anywhere. They are far more durable and less prone to damage too. Yet cassettes even with the advantage of Dolby never replaced vinyl records. Vinyl was king until CDs came along. And it didn't happen over night. CDs used to cost nearly $20 each when vinyl was $3 to $10 and the cheapest CD players were $1000 and up. It was the adoption by the market that drove the prices of the players and the discs down. Vinyl was doomed even before you could record your own cds but if there were any lingering doubts, that cinched it. Small wonder then that at about age 22 vinyl is viewed by most cd buyers the way 78s were viewed by LP buyers when LPs were about 22 years on the market. That would have been about 1972. At that time, 78s as anything more than a curiousity were considered a joke.

The endless debate over which sounds better cds or vinyl will go on as always just like all the other debates such as tubes versus transistors, class A versus class B, moving coil versus moving magnet etc. You won't settle anything here.

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Originally Posted by skeptic

When I said serious, I meant in large quantity with large sales volume. While there may be some small companies still pressing vinyl for the niche market, it is insignificant in terms of the overall market and in terms of the market for vinyl that once existed.

As for convenience versus quality, I don't think that holds up. Cassette tapes are far more convenient than vinyl. You can play them in your car, while you are traveling, or just about anywhere. They are far more durable and less prone to damage too. Yet cassettes even with the advantage of Dolby never replaced vinyl records. Vinyl was king until CDs came along. And it didn't happen over night. CDs used to cost nearly $20 each when vinyl was $3 to $10 and the cheapest CD players were $1000 and up. It was the adoption by the market that drove the prices of the players and the discs down. Vinyl was doomed even before you could record your own cds but if there were any lingering doubts, that cinched it. Small wonder then that at about age 22 vinyl is viewed by most cd buyers the way 78s were viewed by LP buyers when LPs were about 22 years on the market. That would have been about 1972. At that time, 78s as anything more than a curiousity were considered a joke.

The endless debate over which sounds better cds or vinyl will go on as always just like all the other debates such as tubes versus transistors, class A versus class B, moving coil versus moving magnet etc. You won't settle anything here.

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Agree with your first paragraph.

As for cassettes, it was their LACK of durability that hurt them. Pre-recorded cassettes use the worst quality tape and after about 150 plays, they're as good as dead. LP's may deteriorate after 150 plays but they are still playable. It's the robustness of the medium that kept it in the forefront, between those two, anyway. With the CD, it isn't just about convenience in playing, it's also about convenience of care. With CD, very little to no care is required. That's the biggest convenience issue, IMHO.

Your comments about 78's to LP's is certainly valid as long as you're referring to the mass market. At this time, the LP isn't in the running to win back the mass market and likely never will. It's indeed a niche market. But I've never heard anyone say that the 78 sounded superior to the LP. On the other hand, I hear that said regularly with the LP over the CD. The people that say it tend to be those with high resolution systems, a high level of concern over LP hygiene and who regularly attend live musical events. That's not to say that those type of people never prefer CD, it's to say that the LP is probably rarely or never preferred by someone other than that type.

The debate will go on as long as there as two or more different possible preferences. As for the others listed, I could go either way and be satisfied. But so far, the sound of CD to my ears is grating and unmusical enough that it would be very difficult for me if CD's were all I had to listen to. Just my preference - I'm not trying to solve anything here. If you prefer CD's, you're better off than I as they are much more prevalent.

yup, thats what i said and thats what lincoln mayorga and doug sax said. it seems piano sounded better on 78s in some ways that begged for an answer.

they reasoned that maybe the reason was that there was no tape recorded in the way to slow transients and cause phase shifts not found in 78s. so, they got a cutting lathe and cut music from the mixing board to the cutter at 33 1/3 rpm. thus was born the premium recording market and the DTD phase of it.

thats a rather condensed version but that about what went down. dtd didnt survive due to cost factors and the pressure on the musicians to get it perfect the first time, with dtd, you cant fix it in the mix.

still, well recorded vinyl (and most of it was and is) continues to embarrass rbcd in palpable ways. sacd and dvda much less so than rbcd. yeah, we could go on ad infinitum and not make progress but vinyl is doing actually very well in the market, considering. plus, you can buy a better tt now than ever before for less and the choices are growing.

Let everyone and anyone think vinyl is dead! The selection and price of classic and used LP's are great right now, but that will change if the whole world gets back into it. I've truly enjoyed getting back to LP's and haven't listened to a CD for 3 months.

http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org...rd_stores.html

bandwith prob gone now, this is a great resource.

Yea... LP's are dead. And maybe their non-popularity means some good buys can still be had. I went to an LP Speciality Shop that was closing in 1985 and bought LOTS of DGG, DECCA (NOT Decca London) and EMI LP's for $3 each. I cheated in many cases and bought discs that had such laruels as "Grande Pre du Disc Award". [The cheating provided very nice results....]

I believe CD's offer about 100 dB dynamic range while an LP offers about 45 dB maximum. Not much of a contest to me. And there is no way a stylus rubbing over a vinyl surface will produce the extremely low distortion inherent to a CD. One only has to remember that a quickie-rerelease of an LP on CD is not likely a good example of what a CD can offer.....

I have not messed with my SME for a while- I really plan to do so one of these days. I still have my LP trove. The thing about CD's is that they lack INVOLVEMENT ! I was always fiddling with the SME but I only have to put a CD onto the tray and push "play". Then it plays, or it doesn't play. If the former, I have no further involvement; if the later, well, too bad.......

[QUOTE=Mash] The thing about CD's is that they lack INVOLVEMENT !

Yes, the CD's lack of musical involvement is one of my complaints. For all the technical measurements that show CD's superiority, it just doesn't happen when the music hits the speakers.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

yup, thats what i said and thats what lincoln mayorga and doug sax said. it seems piano sounded better on 78s in some ways that begged for an answer.

they reasoned that maybe the reason was that there was no tape recorded in the way to slow transients and cause phase shifts not found in 78s. so, they got a cutting lathe and cut music from the mixing board to the cutter at 33 1/3 rpm. thus was born the premium recording market and the DTD phase of it.

thats a rather condensed version but that about what went down. dtd didnt survive due to cost factors and the pressure on the musicians to get it perfect the first time, with dtd, you cant fix it in the mix.

still, well recorded vinyl (and most of it was and is) continues to embarrass rbcd in palpable ways. sacd and dvda much less so than rbcd. yeah, we could go on ad infinitum and not make progress but vinyl is doing actually very well in the market, considering. plus, you can buy a better tt now than ever before for less and the choices are growing.

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I just hauled out my old 78 player and I'm spinning some shellac! It's an old GE with tubes! The actual sound is pretty crunchy but there's something about the authenticity of shellac when listening to those old swing tunes. Ziggy Elman's got a new baby right now and just before that Woody Herman was telling me about the faucet that keeps dripping and keeping him awake. "Bloop Bleep, the faucet keeps dripping and I can't sleep". When someone said "they don't write lyrics like they used to", do ya think they were referring to this song? I hope not! :D

we vinylites are accused of liking our sound because of nostalgia and those accusers are wrong. THIS however, IS and why not.

you just may be old enough to remember 78s being played as the primary record source, i know i am. i remember the changeover from steam to diesel trains as well. les paul and mary ford singing 'hold that tiger' on the radio in the late 40s. those big old zenith radios with the big speakers that had electromagnets that hummed.

but i play vinyl for its superior sound presentation. i'll admit that it doesnt hurt to get records for a buck!

Just recently purchased a Sumiko Pro-ject 1.2 turntable to replay my LP collection that I haven't touched in over 15 years. Did a comparison of the turntable to my Sony CD player and the sound from the turntable sounded more natural and vibrant vs. the Sony. The CD of course did not have the pops and clicks but it certainly sounded much more edgy and harsh. Now I am rediscovering my LP collection again. Next project is look at one of those record cleaning machines vs. the standard record brush that I use currently that I purchased new back in 1981!

try this:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...es/296270.html

wet the brush in the sink, put a SMALL dab of dawn dish soap on your finger, and soap the brush. wet the record (all this with the faucet) and then wash both sides of the record. the brush follows the grooves pretty well and really gets the record clean.

rinse, rinse, rinse, and use a sink sprayer if you have one. it makes for a splattery mess but its worth it to get the dawn rinsed off. any sign of sudsing and you need to repeat the rinsing until there is NO sudsing .

dry with a paper towel thoroughly and air dry it by waving the disc in the air with both hands. it should now be ready to play. its no VPI but not bad.

Tr,

I'll have to give your suggestion a try. Used to "wash" the records years ago but didn't think to try the lint brush method. Surprisingly, my children now request that I play the records vs. the CD. They were surprised by the analog sound and now appreciate the "work" involved to play a record. May have to look this weekend at the various garage sales to see if I can find some quality LPs and maybe if I'm lucky, score on a record cleaning machine. You just never know. Thanks again for the suggestion to tide me over.

Ben

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mash

Yea... LP's are dead. And maybe their non-popularity means some good buys can still be had. I went to an LP Speciality Shop that was closing in 1985 and bought LOTS of DGG, DECCA (NOT Decca London) and EMI LP's for $3 each. I cheated in many cases and bought discs that had such laruels as "Grande Pre du Disc Award". [The cheating provided very nice results....]

I believe CD's offer about 100 dB dynamic range while an LP offers about 45 dB maximum. Not much of a contest to me. And there is no way a stylus rubbing over a vinyl surface will produce the extremely low distortion inherent to a CD. One only has to remember that a quickie-rerelease of an LP on CD is not likely a good example of what a CD can offer.....

I have not messed with my SME for a while- I really plan to do so one of these days. I still have my LP trove. The thing about CD's is that they lack INVOLVEMENT ! I was always fiddling with the SME but I only have to put a CD onto the tray and push "play". Then it plays, or it doesn't play. If the former, I have no further involvement; if the later, well, too bad.......

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You don't get more dynamic range with cd - what you get is cd manufacturers who changed the definition of dynamic range to suit a marketing campaign. CD's have Quantizing noise "an artifact of the analog to digital coversion process. If all were perfect that noise would be down where the last binary digit is. The noise figure would then be expressed by the formula:

20 log(2b-1) where b is the number of system bits. Most modern systems use 16 bits (but throw one bit away on the parity check), and so:

20 log(215 - 1) = 90.3db

Now a dynamic range over 90db is nough to make a recording engineer drool, but don't drool yet. That figure relates to the peak-to-peak value of the audio signal, rather than the usual root mean square voltage value. To convert you subtract the following from the noise value:

20 log (2 X Square root of 2) = 9.03db.

As you'll notice our dynamic range is now down to 81db. And you can't record at that level because the digital "ceiling" is far harder and more awful than that of analogdisc or tape. It would be a good idea to knock 8db off that figure. Total usable dynamic range : 73db even under ideal conditions. This isn't earth-shaking. A good analog recorder (12.5cm stereo, 76cm/sec) can boast dynamic range of some 74dB. Add dolby or dbx and ther's no comparison. Incidentally, all these figures refer to unweighted noise readings, treating noises of all frequencies equally. Weighting curves are often used by both sides to make the specs look prettier." (Paul Bergman).

Hey happy_ears,
I have that Monty Python album. The first time I queued up the "other" groove, I thought I was going insane.