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  1. #226
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    This is so-call "confirmation bias". You have decided analog & tubes sound best, so you selectively hear the best qualities of these media and equpment. "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest", to quote the song.

    These shows attract people like yourself and accordingly, makers and their salesmen who will cater to your tastes and reasure your biases. In many cases they share your biases but even if they don't they will stroke them in the hope that you'll buy or recommend their stuff.
    Wow, talk about hitting the nail directly on the head!

    The only thing I would add is that shows like this also bring out people who want to see "audio jewlery" How it sounds, even if it's only mediocre, doesn't matter. Some of this gear is pure eye candy for audio geeks, and they will lust after it at all costs. .
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  2. #227
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    This is so-call "confirmation bias". You have decided analog & tubes sound best, so you selectively hear the best qualities of these media and equpment. "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest", to quote the song.

    These shows attract people like yourself and accordingly, makers and their salesmen who will cater to your tastes and reasure your biases. In many cases they share your biases but even if they don't they will stroke them in the hope that you'll buy or recommend their stuff.

    Perhaps I'm being just a bit unfair, though. You are looking for the sound you prefer and there is nothing wrong with that. The bad part is that you refuse to concede the matter of taste and continue to insist your preferences are the necessarily more realistic, authentic sound.
    Excellent!!.
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  3. #228
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I'm 36 and still hear above 16khz.

    Isn't that the strange thing. By the time you have the money to finally be able to afford the best equipment you're too old to hear all it is capable of. While when your 16 you have the ears for it but can only afford the iPod and then because daddy bought it for them.
    Because of my job, I get my ears tested every year. I am lucky that after all these years(I am 45) that I can still hear up to 17khz, and can still feel pressure on my ears to 18khz. The interesting thing is now I am beginning to see some deterioration, as I could hear up to 18khz last year, and it has dropped to 17kHz this year. I can still hear the 15khz tone coming from the flyback transformer of a CRT television. The balance between the left and right ears is almost perfect except a small notch in my right ear at 800hz which is not in my left ear.

    Being a jazz and gospel keyboardist all of my life, I always stuck a piece of cotton, or earplugs in my ears during gigs. The stereo Leslie speakers on my Hammond B3 are pretty loud, and I often have to sit pretty close to them because of the size venue the band often plays in(small clubs and bars).
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  4. #229
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    his is so-call "confirmation bias". You have decided analog & tubes sound best, so you selectively hear the best qualities of these media and equpment. "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest", to quote the song.
    This is simply expectation bias but if we concede that tube guys will pre-judge SS gear then you have to conced that it works the other way as well. The as soon as a SS guy sees a tube amp he will automatically think "fuzzy second order euphony" and then will "expect" to hear just that and attempt to hear all the worst qualities in the technology real or not.

    This goes to the maggie fan at the dealer. I suggested he try something and he said I don't need to hear it has a box. That's expectation/confirmation bias - see a box and it therefore has box resonance so cross it off the list.

    The tube fan suggested that it be better to take the eyes out of the picture which is not a bad argument. The first time I heard a SET amp I didn't know what I was listening to. I saw a giant silver "covered" that looked like a big Krell. That experience was a fortunate one because I could not make any of the silly stereotype pre-bias I would have possibly made had I known it was 8 watts of tube.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor

    These shows attract people like yourself and accordingly, makers and their salesmen who will cater to your tastes and reasure your biases. In many cases they share your biases but even if they don't they will stroke them in the hope that you'll buy or recommend their stuff.

    Shows are set up for dealers most of whom want to carry stuff to sell that causes the least amount of time. They don't particularly like to carry tube amplifiers because they usually have to set it up for customers show them how to bias them etc. From a sales/customer service perspective they're more work. In this day and age it's also a tougher sell since most of them don't come with remotes or subwoofer connection, cost more, and they have to deal with tube failures, and generally don't sell the the numbers first crowd, and generally they have lower warranty lengths. They also don't sell in near the numbers of mainstream SS staples so chances are a dealer only carries them because he likes them. They will sit on his shelf longer so even if the margin is higher (which is also doubtful) then it's also less profitable. A big dealer in Vancouver won't sell tube gear - not because he doesn't like it but because there is no money in it according to him. He sells B&W, Naim, and Rotel for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Perhaps I'm being just a bit unfair, though. You are looking for the sound you prefer and there is nothing wrong with that. The bad part is that you refuse to concede the matter of taste and continue to insist your preferences are the necessarily more realistic, authentic sound.
    The issue is that SS guys don't let it go. The attitude is no different except the argument behind it. The tube guys will argue their preference is correct because it is "obvious" to the ears. The SS guys will say their "preference" is right because here is a graph and it's "accurate" and the only reason Tube guys like tubes is because they were incorrectly seduced by distortion - noting the word "incorrectly". SS guys basically argue that the tube guys preferences are wrong and/or misguided and that sir is why every forum has threads the devolve into this kind of thread.

    I can't get out of them myself because as much as I like to go with the specs and graph and "science" evidence in most things in life I can't get past hooking up some amps and saying wow amp A sounds cleaner less distorted more open, faster, better timing, transients, decay, depth of staging, and deeper fuller bass response while the other one sounds closer to what the telephone provides. As much as the Vulcan part of my mind wants to discount what my ears tell me, I can't shake it because it happens every time I audition. Most of the tube guys I talk to grew up on solid state amplification and made the switch. How many did it the other way around? Sure the 50-60 year olds may have went from tube to SS (but many of these audiophiles also went back to tubes) tubes then were nothing like they are today.

    What I find odd is that panel guys I would think would be more into tubes than any other group. Nobody uses Panels in the mainstream recording industry or in the consumer world - the VAST and I mean VAST majority of engineers think a dynamic systems is 10 times better than any panel. probably 99% of the industry and their techy teams all make some sort of dynamic speaker, recording industry ovrwhelmingly concludes the same thing. No rock concerts or night club is using any panel and please don't point to the one that does - one means nothing. 99.9999% don't. All of the evidence and most of the , recording engineers, critics, audiophiles and most of the public use a dynamic loudspeaker of some sort (even one of the biggest panel makers, Martin Logan) has concluded they need a dynamic woofer). Sure half the subscribers of Stereophile may like a panel but that is not correlated with what their staff owns. And for every subscriber there are at least 10 who read it, and didn't fill out the survey.

    Bottom line is that the VAST majority of listeners who have heard panels don't like them. And nothing I have seen in the measurements indicate anything good either. So like Tubes they are relegated to a niche within a niche and yet the same owners who dump on tubes for conning people due to pandering to tube lore don't perhaps see that maybe a lot of panel guys bought them because more than sound (which the vast majority don't buy into) were conned into their "conversation starter appeal" and "funky looks" and "size" and for that fact that they get to stand out from the 99.99999% of people who own boxes. They get to be a member of the "panel club."

    There are lots of biases from technology to visuals(sleek and sexy, thin) alone that sway people into making decisions on gear and companies know this. Tube amps don't need to look like Shanling but it certainly doesn't hurt to make them look funky and some would say artistic (some would say tacky) but it sets them apart perhaps over an Antique Sound Labs which may have the same sound for half the money.

    Bias:
    Technological arguments - fill enough baffle gab and it sounds like Spock and Scotty built the thing transported back in time to sell their wares.

    Appearance (lines sleek womanly curves, piano black glossy finishes, rosewood side panels, chrome plating etc). Tube glow is also a pretty element to some and some will be seduced by that.

    Warranty (longer implies better parts and better build - which is not necessarily true but it puts that in people's minds)

    Price (high must be better to one set of consumers or audio jewelry to another set)

    Build quality (built like tank - strong)

    Stand apart from the crowd bias - the need to be different than others. Most of us don't get it in any real way but there is opportunity in things we buy. Sort of.

    The need to impress others - there are genuine car guys who buy a fancy car because they like it and others who buy it to show off. It is not dissimilar to "conspicuous green" a term used for folks who like to show off how green they are by buying certain green cars that may in fact not be so green after all.

    Weight (the heavier it is the better it is because the transformer is better - seemed to be the in thing in the 1990s when it came to receivers). Weight also implies superior build quality using superior parts and thus probably sounds superior.

    Internet argument factor bias. People argue with people and they further entrench into their positions or dislike the person they argue with so how can they be unbiased when they do eventually audition the product. Personal bias is huge. The fact that a politician on the opposite side of their aisle may in fact enact the exact same policy as the team they like will still be met with opposition. If you're on the blue team you're wrong no matter what the policy is - it's wrong because I'm not on the team.

    Big - big is better - more drivers means it must have more expensive parts. If you can't "see" the expense then it must be cheap. 2 way is two thousand, three way is three thousand. Big implies more expense, exotic materials implies more expense - more expense implies better sound.

    I am quite fine with blind listening because some of the best sound I ever heard was from a company that made products that looked boring as hell, didn't have a name on the speakers, never heard of the company, - sat in a chair listened and then inquired as to what the hell that was. No preconceived notions to bias me.

  5. #230
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I don’t really have a horse in the race, so let me say what I see from this debate.

    Tube guys are bias against SS, but accuse SS guys of being bias against tubes.
    SS guys are bias against tubes, but accuse tube guys of being bias against SS. (this one is a draw)

    Tube guys say, close your eyes and just listen. Graphs and charts don’t matter.
    SS guys say, close your eyes and listen, but charts and graphs do matter as well. (Can’t really blame them there. Being able to say that the music in equals the music out, with nothing added, removed or changed is a pretty compelling argument. I have heard tubes though, and there is a little something to them that makes the mids sing to me) (another draw)

    As far as sellers only carrying tubes because they like them? I call BS. Sellers carry things to sell them and make money. If they like them, then they will be in their home instead of for sale.

    Panels vs boxes: I like them both, and also see/hear why someone might prefer one over the other. Which is best is up to the individual. It could have to do with what type of music you like, or how loud you like to listen. It might be the shape of your ears. In the end, both can be made to sound fracking great. (another draw)

    OK, I’m done. You guys can ignore me and go back to your regularly scheduled debate.
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  6. #231
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I don’t really have a horse in the race, so let me say what I see from this debate.

    Tube guys are bias against SS, but accuse SS guys of being bias against tubes.
    SS guys are bias against tubes, but accuse tube guys of being bias against SS. (this one is a draw)

    Tube guys say, close your eyes and just listen. Graphs and charts don’t matter.
    SS guys say, close your eyes and listen, but charts and graphs do matter as well. (Can’t really blame them there. Being able to say that the music in equals the music out, with nothing added, removed or changed is a pretty compelling argument. I have heard tubes though, and there is a little something to them that makes the mids sing to me) (another draw)

    As far as sellers only carrying tubes because they like them? I call BS. Sellers carry things to sell them and make money. If they like them, then they will be in their home instead of for sale.

    Panels vs boxes: I like them both, and also see/hear why someone might prefer one over the other. Which is best is up to the individual. It could have to do with what type of music you like, or how loud you like to listen. It might be the shape of your ears. In the end, both can be made to sound fracking great. (another draw)

    OK, I’m done. You guys can ignore me and go back to your regularly scheduled debate.
    Wow, this has gotta be a first. Two posts in one thread that I'm nearly 100% in agreement with!? We might as well all join hands and sing kumbaya now!

    The only problem I'm having now is that I'm BOTH a SS and Tube guy. (In addition to being a Panel & Box guy too!) I better make an apointment with the shrink ASAP, this is going to be costly.....
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  7. #232
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    This is simply expectation bias but if we concede that tube guys will pre-judge SS gear then you have to conced that it works the other way as well. The as soon as a SS guy sees a tube amp he will automatically think "fuzzy second order euphony" and then will "expect" to hear just that and attempt to hear all the worst qualities in the technology real or not.

    This goes to the maggie fan at the dealer. I suggested he try something and he said I don't need to hear it has a box. That's expectation/confirmation bias - see a box and it therefore has box resonance so cross it off the list.

    ...
    A lot of truth here, Richard. But you misjudge me -- I'm not nearly so pro-s/s nor pro-panel as your are against them or pro-Audio Note.

  8. #233
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Audio Note.
    NO!!! Not the word!



    "Bring us a shrubbery or we will say it again!
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  9. #234
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    This whole thread is nuts. I've heard SS systems to die for and tube systems to die for. Same goes for box and panel speakers. The bottom line is that we all have our personal preferences for sound and none of it is close to live music. I like air, transparency and resolution. I have not been to a concert yet (including small intimate venue's) where the music is transparent and airy.
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  10. #235
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    You said it!

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    This whole thread is nuts. I've heard SS systems to die for and tube systems to die for. Same goes for box and panel speakers. The bottom line is that we all have our personal preferences for sound and none of it is close to live music. I like air, transparency and resolution. I have not been to a concert yet (including small intimate venue's) where the music is transparent and airy.
    I agree with you 100% Raven
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  11. #236
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Wow, this has gotta be a first. Two posts in one thread that I'm nearly 100% in agreement with!? We might as well all join hands and sing kumbaya now!

    The only problem I'm having now is that I'm BOTH a SS and Tube guy. (In addition to being a Panel & Box guy too!) I better make an apointment with the shrink ASAP, this is going to be costly.....
    I think most of us don't really project what we're all about on forums as well as we would in person. If you defend a point on a forum for the defending of the side and you do it enough then you will be perceived as being completely in that camp.

    I reviewed my top systems at CES and I have a couple of two way boxes, a panel, a horn, a single driver, a couple of 3 ways, a couple of 5 driver systems fronted by SET, PP Tube amps, and low and high power SS systems with CD and or VInyl and or DSD recordings. Looking at the various system types that I liked it makes me look like an Audiophile slut.

    My latest audio Purchase was a Rotel RC-1082 solid State preamplifier. And I own more equipment not from Audio Note than equipment from them - as crazy as that may sound!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Realistic sound = tubes and analogue-rc1082_front.jpg  

  12. #237
    It's just a hobby
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I reviewed my top systems at CES and I have a couple of two way boxes, a panel, a horn, a single driver, a couple of 3 ways, a couple of 5 driver systems fronted by SET, PP Tube amps, and low and high power SS systems with CD and or VInyl and or DSD recordings. Looking at the various system types that I liked it makes me look like an Audiophile slut.
    You do not need to worry about that, you've made enough utterances on this board and so many others that just about about everyone who reads your posts know where your preferences lie. A few token acquisitions is hardly going to change that perception, not in the short term anyway.
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 09-02-2010 at 08:32 PM.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  13. #238
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    You do need to worry about that, you've made enough utterances on this board and so many others that just about about everyone who reads your posts know where your preferences lie. A few token acquisitions is hardly going to change that perception, not in the short term anyway.
    TAH

    There is a lot of gear that I like but at the same time I do have a preference. Interestingly I don't own that preference or any of the components in that preference system. If I were to rate systems on anumeric scale then I generally like to go to the one I hold as the best and work down from there. Yes I hold the system above everything else I have heard but so what. If the person arguing against it has heard that is one thing. If they take pot shots because they heard one component that is not even part of the system I am talking about or worse none of the components then why have a problem with my view of it.

    I think it is critical for the reader to know where a preference lies from a reviewer any reviewer. No one is unbiased whether they try to project that or not - I would rather an honest bias than dishonest objectivity and because no one is completely objective it would be nice to know their preferences. And of course you can then discount them if they don't believe the same things you do. For instance you and I so not share a similar ear even remotely I don't believe so whatever you like I probably won't and vice versa and that's fine. I don't share the same ear with most reviewers and even the guys at Dagogo. Nice guys some of them hear it the same and some don't. But sometimes you don't know where people stand and that to me is a problem.

    I certainly like a lot of stereos of different designs but I still have my personal preference and like any consumer I will make a choice to live with something long term. Some people flip components in and out just to try new stuff and don't maintain a referencial system which is also fine.

    Here is my concluding show report from CES


    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Conclusion

    CES 2010 is over and there were many fine rooms at CES 2010 and some rooms I didn’t get much of an opportunity to audition. A number of rooms were hampered by their choice of room size while other rooms were hampered by their set-up and possibly their associated gear. Still, I have decided to select my 5 favourite budget rooms that had loudspeakers retailing for under $10,000 and my five favourite rooms with speakers above $10,000.

    Rooms with speakers under $10,000 (alphabetical order):

    Audio Note AN-E/Spe HE Loudspeakers http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=706

    Gallo 3.5 http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=713 Perhaps the most surprising in that I didn't care much for the 3.1

    Kingsound Prince II Electrostatic loudspeakers http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=717 Finally a panel I would be happy with - though I'd still probably want a sub.

    Sonist Recital 3 loudspeakers http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=715 Least expensive speakers on the list.

    Studio Electric Type Three Loudspeakers http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=683 Who? Yeah a 2 man operation took out a lot of big boys.


    Rooms with speakers above $10,000 (alphabetical order):

    Acapella High Violoncello II http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=717 The most expensive on the list

    Audio Note AN-E Sec Signature Discussed above in post #27 and Fred Crowder's report for similar response and pictures http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=694

    Silbatone Aporia Full Range http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=718

    Teresonic Ingenium loudspeakers http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=715 These speakers like Audio Note can be purchased in versions under $10,000.

    Trenner and Friedl RA Box http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=721
    Yes you can see the RGA preference but if you look at the other systems there you will see quite a diverse selection.

    And the runner up rooms like the Usher room, Sony/Pass, Reference 3a, Martin Logan/Myster, Wilson/Rogue were all in my top 10 and all sounded very good.

    So yes a few people who read the forums - maybe 20 guys who are forum regulars know what I like - but the many thousands of readers of the online magazine get a more balanced perspective of what I like.

  14. #239
    RGA
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    TAH

    I don't know if I have brought this point up before but I think I will here. If you think about it what is an audio component? Is it the label on the box or what is inside the box and or the designer's end result. You could say the people share a certain "ear" for products which is why I believe there are ears that follow certain traits and those that follow others. Two people can hear two amps a SS and a Tube and walk away with very different takes on what they heard. Warm 3 dimensional anr real while the other guy fuzzy, distorted, thick. It is not dissimilar to the analogy over the actual music played. One person can be moved to tears with classical the other finds it boring and wishes Tupac was playing at 100db.

    I believe my "ear" is closer to Peter's ear because unlike a LINN, Audio Note is a shared company in a lot of ways. Different designers. When a person owns a Linn system they are getting what LInn designed. With AN you get the logo on the boxes and certainly they made some changes turbo charging certain things but it's not really a "buying one brand" approach.

    Speakers: Snell
    Turntables: Systemdek or Voyd
    Arms: Rega, Heleus
    Cartridges, Kondo, Grove, Goldring
    Amps: Kondo, Guy Adams(of Voyd), or Andy Grove
    DA converters: Andy Grove, Michael Kerster (Sonic Frontiers) and a guy who works now for Sugden but I forget his name.

    The USB boards are made by the Jim Hagerman of Hagerman Technologies in the United States

    This is an example using the TT1 turntable - we're too attached to logos and company presidents that skew our view http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/...003_an_tt1.pdf


    Even in the bigger mainstream companies there are designers that people follow. I forget the fellow's name but certain NAD amps are more prized than others based on the designer. Infinity has the same issue as does Kondo/AN UK Quad and others where people will like the designs of one group over the next. Restaurants have a different Chef working certain nights and plays with the regular actor versus the under-study some will prefer the under-study or the Tuesday chef. I prefer the Adams designed OTO over the non Adams designed Soro - despite the Soro costing a grand or two more - and interestingly the less expensive OTO is often the one they more often bring to shows - some people like the Soro more though and some like the K more than the J and some hate the K. Some like the older Dehay designed Reference 3a over the new ones and some think the new ones are a lot better.

    We are far too name brand conscious where it is not the personality of the guy owning the company or the label on the box but the designers.

    My system is essentially:

    Snell speakers (hotrodded)

    Systemdek turntable, rega arm, goldring cart, AN UK motors and platter, Kondo cables (hotrooded). At least four companies have a major imput on the sound of this one table

    Voyd EL34 based tube amp designed by Guy Adams - OTO. You could say in a way it is a Voyd amp. And probably why the Phono stage section is unusually good at the price.

    Cambridge Audio CD player

    Skylan turntable base

    Rotel preamp (under a different designer than the previous incarnations)

    Sennheiser HD 600 headphones

    Antique Sound labs headphone amp.

    The fact that some of these have the same label on the front does not mean all that much except that I share an ear similar to a guy who elected to put certain pieces of kit together and tweak them to be in sync whith each other. In some ways this is not different that a very good dealer who puts systems together that sound really nice. It's just that they have a very good ear for it IMO and it takes so much of the complexity, work, and expense out of it. The amp works with the speakers about as well as an amp can work with them and the cables and the sources. It's far harder to do flying blind by simply trying 25 amplifiers buying them bring them home only to find out that the real culprit was the speaker or the cd player. I see a lot of people flipping a lot of components where I think if one is on the right track they would be able to stick with something for a decade. If you have to flip it every few months something IMO is not right in the system. That's just my opinion and in no way should be construed as me saying my opinion is a fact but we all have some sort of view of it and that's mine.

    I could certainly put a Shindo amp in my system and very likely be amazed - more so than if I put in a SORO. That may not come through in my posts but it is my belief. I am not convinced that putting in a Bryston 28B and pream would be a good match because I have auditioned other SST2 amps with the speakers and was roundly unimpressed. They may work with other speakers but not mine.

    Indeed most of the products out there with whatever name badge on the front uses "parts" from some other company. Philips, Sony, Sanyo or Teac transports mostly and transformers from other parties, speaker drivers outsources or made in house. Even the in house ones will sell to competitors - Dynaudio used to do that, but others do as well.
    Last edited by RGA; 09-02-2010 at 03:20 PM.

  15. #240
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    Blind listening of hifi gear is just as important as blind tasting of wines. If you see what your are tasting and rating, your bias will influency your rating. So too will your bias in stereo equipement influency your rating. Be sure to match sound levels when comparing systems.

  16. #241
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    The first thing I noticed about the little Dynaudio Contour S1.4 standmounts at $3,500.00 pair was their impressive bass depth coming from relatively tiny boxes. I would not be at all surprised if they were hitting in the 40Hz region. Bass was deep, but I felt it was affecting the pace and timing of the speaker a little, masking the midrange and treble, creating a less open dynamic presentation.
    In general, when listening to any Dynaudio speakers, my thoughts are as yours..."impressive bass depth" and " masking the midrange and treble, creating a less open dynamic presentation."
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  17. #242
    You play. I listen. Enochrome's Avatar
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    I have no experience with tubes, but would like to try.

    Can you plug your TT into a tube line stage and then to the preamp, or does it
    have to be RIAA equalized first and then tubed?

  18. #243
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enochrome
    Can you plug your TT into a tube line stage and then to the preamp, or does it have to be RIAA equalized first and then tubed?
    The question of whether or not a preamp (phono or line stage) is tube, SS based or both - doesn't matter when it comes to how you connect it. What does matter is that you must match sensitivities and overload characteristics. Piping the 2 volt output of a line stage into a phono stage expecting a .005 volt (or less) input would severely overload it. Phono stages, therefore, always preceed line stages.

    rw

  19. #244
    You play. I listen. Enochrome's Avatar
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    Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

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