It's a doggone shame.

[frenchmon]

Not heard the Rogue -

But the Mystere/PrimaLuna/Melody amps I heard are all different.

Quickly speaking -
All three are detailed - have good dynamics - good staging and that tube like sound.

What I found to be most distinguishing about the three are.
PL - a bit too relaxed for me at lower volumes - alive when pushed - but lows aren't quiet clean enough for me. didn't hear with the KT88 tubes - so sound could radically change.
M - very alive at low volumes - needs a speaker with a bit too much bass to balance out the mids and high end at pushed volumes - very exciting sound.
My - better bass definition - sounds good low or pushed - great mid range - smooth highs

Thanks AA...if you had a choice..what would you choose?.Whats your favorite?

Heres a link to Rouge...maybe you can get one in for review?


http://www.rogueaudio.com/

[02audionoob]

Have you heard anything about Signal cable? Price looks good on the phono cable.

http://www.signalcable.com/analog_interconnects.html

I have not heard of those, as far as I remember. Maybe I'll start searching the used market.

[frenchmon]

I have not heard of those, as far as I remember. Maybe I'll start searching the used market.

IF you find anything and purchase...please let me know what you come up with?

[frenchmon]

Hi noob....

I've had a pair of A+ interconnect cables sitting around and had not used them so I decided to switch them in and the cable that came with the 7.1 out. I don't really know how I feel as yet. Will keep you posted.

Man this thread...and also I might add, this forum don't get as much action as I thought.

Edit...OK that was quick! Switched the phono cable back in that came with the 7.1 and A+ interconnects back out...night and day difference! the cable that came with the 7.1 kicked the A+ interconnects in the ass. I think I read that the 7.1 cable has a mix of silver and copper. Hmmmm, I thought phono cable was about the same as interconnects but I guess its different altogether.

[02audionoob]

That's interesting info. Any idea on the A+ cable's capacitance? I would assume the cable that came with the turntable is quite low in capacitance.

[poppachubby]

Hey noob did you know that Oracle is now using the 9cc arm on one of its tables? Must be a very good arm.

That arm is where I will probably end up if I make any more upgrades to me table. One of the best combos I have heard was the 9cc on an LP12. Sure, there are better arms out there but it seemed to match up really well.

If you ask me, that arm precedes Pro-Jects reputation with tables. Even people who hate PJ will bow to the 9cc.

[frenchmon]

That's interesting info. Any idea on the A+ cable's capacitance? I would assume the cable that came with the turntable is quite low in capacitance.

noob....this is the cable that got whipped by the 7.1 cable.



In all fairness its not a phono cable as the 7.1 cable.

This is the cable im thinking of buying which is a phono cable.



But the site no where list the capacitance.
http://www.analysis-plus.com/prod_phonocable.html


I've contacted my dealer to ask if he can find out.

[frenchmon]

That arm is where I will probably end up if I make any more upgrades to me table. One of the best combos I have heard was the 9cc on an LP12. Sure, there are better arms out there but it seemed to match up really well.

If you ask me, that arm precedes Pro-Jects reputation with tables. Even people who hate PJ will bow to the 9cc.

Well the arm I have, the 9c is the same all but the head shell, and its a great arm. Using the same cart I had on the 2.1, I get so much more detail, and not as nearly the noise I did with the 2.1

[02audionoob]

Hey frenchmon...You wouldn't happen to have any component video cable laying around, would you? I have been wondering how they would do as phono interconnects but I can't try it out on my turntables because they have captive cables.

[frenchmon]

Hey frenchmon...You wouldn't happen to have any component video cable laying around, would you? I have been wondering how they would do as phono interconnects but I can't try it out on my turntables because they have captive cables.

Yes I do...I'll give it a shot.

[02audionoob]

Hey, frenchmon...new toy in the house...

[frenchmon]

Hey, frenchmon...new toy in the house...

oooweeeee! How much cleaner do they get compared by hand cleaning? Well I guess it cuts down on the labor....that alone will be worth the price. I was planing on getting a spin clean this month. ima cheap one.

[02audionoob]

oooweeeee! How much cleaner do they get compared by hand cleaning? Well I guess it cuts down on the labor....that alone will be worth the price. I was planing on getting a spin clean this month. ima cheap one.

I was already able to get my records really clean with my mini shop-vac and velvet-covered nozzle, but this does cut down on the labor. The VPI's vacuum dries the record in one turn. One drawback, though - It puts a little static on the record. Now I might need another toy to deal with that!

[frenchmon]

I was already able to get my records really clean with my mini shop-vac and velvet-covered nozzle, but this does cut down on the labor. The VPI's vacuum dries the record in one turn. One drawback, though - It puts a little static on the record. Now I might need another toy to deal with that!

Well I guess after you clean them with record machine, you can get a gun to zap them....that part might actually be fun.

[frenchmon]

This is what I sent my dealer concerning the cables.

.....can you get the capacitance of the oval one interconnect cable? Also I need the capacitance of the low mass oval phono cable. I cant seem to find it on their site. Pehaps you can get in touch with them and ask....also what would you charge for the low mass oval phono cable? Thanks.

this is the reply

Hi Byron,

I spoke with one of the owners, Mark Markel, about this. He told me that the desire for low capacitance as such is one of the most misunderstood ideas in audio. As he is a PhD I defer to his knowledge.

He told me that they design their cables for a 75 ohm impedance. One of their white papers, #981, http://www.analysis-plus.com/design_whitepaper.html explains this in detail.

This is really over my head....can you make any thing out of it noob? Or anybody who understand the jargon?

Any way...I asked my dealer if he can get some phono cable to try out before purchase.

[JoeE SP9]

What's any of that got to do with the capacitance of phono leads from a TT. MM cartridge manufacturers specify the ideal capacitive load for their cartridges. For MC cartridges AFAIK it's not important.

Shunt capacitance is mentioned in the White paper as part of Z. If I understand correctly a stable Z is what Analysis Plus desires.

There are plenty of companies making tonearm cables that publish their specs for capacitance,

Can you try before you buy>

[frenchmon]

What's any of that got to do with the capacitance of phono leads from a TT. MM cartridge manufacturers specify the ideal capacitive load for their cartridges. For MC cartridges AFAIK it's not important.

Shunt capacitance is mentioned in the White paper as part of Z. If I understand correctly a stable Z is what Analysis Plus desires.

There are plenty of companies making tonearm cables that publish their specs for capacitance,

Can you try before you buy>

I've sent my dealer a email asking if he can get one other wise im not buying. I had a chance to listen to the interconnects before I bought, but he does not stock the phono cable. He needs to get one other wise im not buying.

I cant see what any of that has to do with capacitance, but im not really as astute as if I am in the know. So I appreciate you reading it Joe and giving you opinion.

[atomicAdam]

This is what I sent my dealer concerning the cables.

this is the reply

This is really over my head....can you make any thing out of it noob? Or anybody who understand the jargon?

Any way...I asked my dealer if he can get some phono cable to try out before purchase.

OK - so obviously I'm not a cable designer nor have I any real experts in engineering and electricity.

But with that said I'd like to say two things about the Analysis plus cables.

1) This is really just a general comment about audio and systems and our individual component approach to audio when it should be a holistic systems approach and users desire. I'm in this hobby cause I love music and I want it to sound good. To me what sounds good might not sound good to another person. So whose to say who is correct. And we all know that line of argument. But to expand - what is the point of measurements when a not so 'perfect' cable might sound better to you than a perfect one. And to expand on the singular component reviewed at a time issue, we all now that one piece of gear will sound different, sometimes minor, some times major differences, in different system. So who f'ing cares how it was made or how you liked it. It really should be about what the cable or component did in the system and the type of system you have.

2) The first part of the white paper talks about how as the Frequency increases skin depth becomes an issue. So they talk about the skin depth of a frequency and how the whole center of a round cable isn't being used. So they cut it out? Like, hey, at 20Khz this isn't being used, well lets get rid of it? WTF? What about at 10Hz? Is it being used then. And what does a spectrum graph look like. I mean - if 10Hz and 20Khz are passed at the same time - what are the skin effects than? Does the 20Khz ride closer to the skin while the 10Hz stays closer to the center? If this is the case, WTF take the center out? If this isn't - why force the 10Hz into a cable with not natural area for it to travel through. Seems illogical to me, but maybe someone can pony up a reason.

[frenchmon]

OK - so obviously I'm not a cable designer nor have I any real experts in engineering and electricity.

But with that said I'd like to say two things about the Analysis plus cables.

1) This is really just a general comment about audio and systems and our individual component approach to audio when it should be a holistic systems approach and users desire. I'm in this hobby cause I love music and I want it to sound good. To me what sounds good might not sound good to another person. So whose to say who is correct. And we all know that line of argument. But to expand - what is the point of measurements when a not so 'perfect' cable might sound better to you than a perfect one. And to expand on the singular component reviewed at a time issue, we all now that one piece of gear will sound different, sometimes minor, some times major differences, in different system. So who f'ing cares how it was made or how you liked it. It really should be about what the cable or component did in the system and the type of system you have.

2) The first part of the white paper talks about how as the Frequency increases skin depth becomes an issue. So they talk about the skin depth of a frequency and how the whole center of a round cable isn't being used. So they cut it out? Like, hey, at 20Khz this isn't being used, well lets get rid of it? WTF? What about at 10Hz? Is it being used then. And what does a spectrum graph look like. I mean - if 10Hz and 20Khz are passed at the same time - what are the skin effects than? Does the 20Khz ride closer to the skin while the 10Hz stays closer to the center? If this is the case, WTF take the center out? If this isn't - why force the 10Hz into a cable with not natural area for it to travel through. Seems illogical to me, but maybe someone can pony up a reason.

Hey I agree with you Adam....While these guys are technical engineers with PHD's who have a different way of designing cable, most of that stuff goes over every one's head any way. I didn't buy the cable based on their studies, but based on price and performance. If I can hear a A+ phono cable I might purchase that as well. I do like their cable tho and will be moving up the line at some point.

What would really be cool is if you could get in touch with them...ask them a few questions about their approach to cable design, and then have them send you a pair to review. That would really be cool if you could pull that off.

[atomicAdam]

Hey Frechmon -

I'll get in contact with them. I've got to finish up a bunch of stuff currently on my plate - but I'll keep this in mind. There prices on their top of the line stuff in pretty close to the last couple cables I've had in.

[02audionoob]

This is what I sent my dealer concerning the cables.



this is the reply



This is really over my head....can you make any thing out of it noob? Or anybody who understand the jargon?

Any way...I asked my dealer if he can get some phono cable to try out before purchase.

The reason I brought up capacitance is: I understood you took A+ cables not specifically designated for phono use and used them for a phono signal. Is that right? Since you have a MM cartridge...and as Joe noted capacitance is a significant issue with MM cartridges...I was thinking maybe the capacitance in the A+ cables was higher than the Music Hall cables. That might have explained why the A+ cables didn't perform as well as the Music Hall cables.

Then the reason I brought up the idea of video cable is: It is designed to 75 Ohm (just like we now know the A+ cable is). 75 Ohm cable is of fairly low capacitance. According to Blue Jeans cable, 75 Ohm design generally locks capacitance in at 16 to 21 pF/ft. That's not as low as the cables I've seen specifically noted as low capacitance, but still pretty low. BJC says audio cable capacitance is typically 25 to 31 pF/ft. I don't think low capacitance is automatically good...in other words, lower isn't necessarily better...it's more a matter of optimum.

We know higher capacitance can have a detrimental effect on a phono signal, but...I used Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 from my DAC to my integrated and thought it didn't perform as well as some cables I paid $8 for. Video cables I paid about $15 for were noticeably better, but still not as good as the $8 cables. My Straight Wire cables were clearly better than all of them, improving even further on the same characteristics the $8 cables improved on...that being the smoothness of the highs.

I don't know much about cable, but I was hoping to learn something from finding out the capacitance to the A+ cable. In what way did the A+ cables change the sound of your MMF-7.1/2M Red combo?

[frenchmon]

Hey Frechmon -

I'll get in contact with them. I've got to finish up a bunch of stuff currently on my plate - but I'll keep this in mind. There prices on their top of the line stuff in pretty close to the last couple cables I've had in.

That will be great Adam...keep me posted.

[frenchmon]

The reason I brought up capacitance is: I understood you took A+ cables not specifically designated for phono use and used them for a phono signal. Is that right? Since you have a MM cartridge...and as Joe noted capacitance is a significant issue with MM cartridges...I was thinking maybe the capacitance in the A+ cables was higher than the Music Hall cables. That might have explained why the A+ cables didn't perform as well as the Music Hall cables.

Then the reason I brought up the idea of video cable is: It is designed to 75 Ohm (just like we now know the A+ cable is). 75 Ohm cable is of fairly low capacitance. According to Blue Jeans cable, 75 Ohm design generally locks capacitance in at 16 to 21 pF/ft. That's not as low as the cables I've seen specifically noted as low capacitance, but still pretty low. BJC says audio cable capacitance is typically 25 to 31 pF/ft. I don't think low capacitance is automatically good...in other words, lower isn't necessarily better...it's more a matter of optimum.

We know higher capacitance can have a detrimental effect on a phono signal, but...I used Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 from my DAC to my integrated and thought it didn't perform as well as some cables I paid $8 for. Video cables I paid about $15 for were noticeably better, but still not as good as the $8 cables. My Straight Wire cables were clearly better than all of them, improving even further on the same characteristics the $8 cables improved on...that being the smoothness of the highs.

I don't know much about cable, but I was hoping to learn something from finding out the capacitance to the A+ cable. In what way did the A+ cables change the sound of your MMF-7.1/2M Red combo?

There was a big difference in the MMF-7.1 cable and the A+ interconnects. The A+ was not as detailed and had really fast decay in the upper end sounds when used as a phono cable. Bass was not as full either. THe overal sound was not as loud as with the 7.1 cable. I did read some where that the cable offered with the MMF-7.1 was a high end cable with strands of silver and copper mix. The A+ Oval One entry level interconnects is only copper I believe. Its a good interconnect cable that works well with the Rotel and XRAY

I still have not had time to dig out my video cable to try...maybe this weekend. The MMF-7.1 cable is not bad, I just thought I could improve up on it. I've yet to hear back from my dealer after asking him to see if they could send him a demo A+ phono cable to try seeing he is a dealer. According to the A+ site it constructed of pure silver over a stabilizing strand of oxygen-free copper so it should at least be on par if not, then better than the MMF-7.1's phono cable. That cable list for $415 dollars but I can get it for about half that price but I would love to take a listen first.