Grado Red Surprise!

[JohnMichael]

In all my years of owning turntables, about 31 so far, I have always heard about Grado cartridges. I always heard about the magic they created in such inexpensive cartridges. Through the years I have purchased several Grados but always failed to hear the magic. As a local audio store was going out of business I bought a Grado Red at what must have been the stores cost. Installed it and once again was disappointed. The cartridge lacked resolution and I did not think it was tracking well. Back to the Ortofon OM20.

Yesterday I was listening to some vinyl and I realized how tired I was of the OM20 sound. I thought about installing my old Sumiko Blue Point 2 but I knew the stylus had a bit of wear. I have been thinking a lot about a low output MC cartridge after reading the thread started by BRANDONH. Out of boredom and time on my hands I decided to try the Grado one more time. I had never used it since installing the Michell TechnoWeight and was curious if it would work any better with the tweak.

I removed my tonearm from the table to remove the 2mm spacer. The Grado does not need the spacer since it is not as tall as the OM20. Since I had the arm in hand I installed the cartridge. I find this a much easier process when the arm is off the turntable. After loosely mounting the cartridge I reinstalled the arm. Pulling out my trusty GeoDisc I set overhang and offset. Using the Shure stylus gauge I set the tracking force to 1 1/2 grams. It was time to spin a disc and hear if there was magic. It sounded terrible, where were the high frequencies, what have I done? I checked the back of my phono preamp and sure enough while plugging in the turntable cables I had switched the preamp to MC instead of the moving magnet setting appropriate for the Grado.

Now with everything set properly I lowered the stylus into the groove. My initial response was what the hell? Where did all this solid imaging come from? The Red gave greater depth to the soundstage than the OM20 but not as good as a MC. Wonderful midrange and all I heard about the Grado reproducing female vocalists is now true. Bass is rendered tighter and better defined. The warmth of the cartridge is welcome with my very neutral speakers. No sounds of mistracking with any discs I have played so far including some Telarc's with very good bass. So this is what a Grado cartridge should sound like. I understand their popularity.

The midrange is very accurate and the portrayal of the individual sounds of instruments is great. In complex musical passages it is easier to hear what instruments are being played because there is less congestion to the sound. This may be due to good tracking, good midrange reproduction or a combination of both. All of this for a list price of $110.

I must attribute my amazement to the quality of sound in part to the Michell TechnoWeight. The lowered counterweight has improved the tracking of the cartridge. This is the first time I have heard the cartridge since installing this tweak. I had no idea Grado cartridges could have so much detail, resolutiong and imaging. Did I like the cartridge with the stock Rega counterweight? No I did not. I was planning on using it for a trade in on a Benz cartridge. Of course now I will be listening to the Grado for awhile and hearing what all it can do. Now the question is do I want a low output MC or one of the wooden bodied Grado's?

[basite]

that's a nice discovery

if I may, I should recommend a denon DL-103 (or maybe even the better 103R if you want to pay it) for a low output MC, it might not be the ideal cart for a modern arm (although alot of people say it outperforms many much more expensive carts, even with not so heavy arms) JRA uses denon carts too with his pro-ject, so it can't be a problem with the rega...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[E-Stat]

In all my years of owning turntables, about 31 so far...

Holy cow! Thirty-one? I've only had five in 35 years and still have the last two.

Of course now I will be listening to the Grado for awhile and hearing what all it can do. Now the question is do I want a low output MC or one of the wooden bodied Grado's?

I've had a Grado before, but I've been an MC guy for a long time for their superior resolution. Also had the Denon 103 that Basite suggested. My last cartridge was a Dynavector DV-20XL low output model which ultimately got damaged during my move last year. I replaced it recently with the VPI flavor that is a mid-output model (1.0 mV) which works better with my ARC preamp. I don't hear any compromises of this model vs. the low output (0.3mV) version and the S/N will be better for all but the very finest phono preamps.

rw

[JohnMichael]

Holy cow! Thirty-one? I've only had five in 35 years and still have the last two.

rw

To clarify the 31 was number of years and not number of turntables. Before my first turntable I had several record players. I owned one of the Dynavector 10x2 before and remember it fondly. I am just surprised I finally am able to enjoy a Grado. Good music and cheap.

[JohnMichael]

I've had a Grado before, but I've been an MC guy for a long time for their superior resolution. Also had the Denon 103 that Basite suggested. My last cartridge was a Dynavector DV-20XL low output model which ultimately got damaged during my move last year. I replaced it recently with the VPI flavor that is a mid-output model (1.0 mV) which works better with my ARC preamp. I don't hear any compromises of this model vs. the low output (0.3mV) version and the S/N will be better for all but the very finest phono preamps.

rw

I have read good things about the DV-20XL and will consider it. I do know they make a higher output version and I may look into that model due to my preamp. The Grado is not all I want and need in a phono cartridge but I was surprised at how much music it produced compared to the other times I have tried to use one.

[E-Stat]

I have read good things about the DV-20XL and will consider it. I do know they make a higher output version and I may look into that model due to my preamp. The Grado is not all I want and need in a phono cartridge but I was surprised at how much music it produced compared to the other times I have tried to use one.

Operator error. Your wording was quite clear. I use a Shure M97 with the vintage Ariston/SME to good results.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

Ok, I have confessed this before...I am completely uneducated on the world of analogue....however, I am very curious, just never had anyone really explain the process to me. So, if I may ....

Please explain to me how things work in the world of analogue and what kind of prices are we talking for certain parts...I realize that things like a cartridge could vary in price, but what are the differences in high quality and such...what would one look for in a good cartridge...

I guess I just need this explained as if I'm a four year old. I am only curious because I think that if I knew more I might want to get into it seriously. I would also like to know how to setup a system and what are the parts that I would need to get started.

[Bernd]

.....indeed John.
It's great when that happens. I had a similar experience with some tubes.
I am pleased the Grado sings and as you so rightly mentioned, the Michell Techno Weight is a must do upgrade for any Rega arm.
Enjoy.

Peace

[Bernd]

Ok, I have confessed this before...I am completely uneducated on the world of analogue....however, I am very curious, just never had anyone really explain the process to me. So, if I may ....

Please explain to me how things work in the world of analogue and what kind of prices are we talking for certain parts...I realize that things like a cartridge could vary in price, but what are the differences in high quality and such...what would one look for in a good cartridge...

I guess I just need this explained as if I'm a four year old. I am only curious because I think that if I knew more I might want to get into it seriously. I would also like to know how to setup a system and what are the parts that I would need to get started.

.....caution.
I shall try and do my best to give you the basics. First of, if you get into Vinyl it could very easy turn very expensive very soon as you find out what digital is missing.
I would start very basic with a complete TT,arm and cartridge package. You will also need a phono amp,to bring the cartridge signal up to line level amongst other things, as the signal from a cartridge is very small. I know that Project do a complete package. Then buy a handful of records and see how you get on.
Analogue is much more involved and hands on than digital. I enjoy that part, some don't. Only you will know if it is for you after living with a TT for a while. I would also suggest that you listen to a couple of rigs from very basic to higher up the chain.That would make it very clear how much more music you can get out of those grooves.
The whole analogue process is very involving and once hooked very tough to let go. I also think it's best to start slowly before jumping into the deep end.
So a good stable TT, a Tonearm, a Cartridge that works in that arm (that's where a package deal comes in handy. No need to worry about compliance, etc.for now) and a phono amp. You would also have to give some thought to placement of the TT. As it is a lot more sensitive than a silver disc spinner.
Hope this helps. Any more question feel free to ask. I love to help to convert you to the dark side.......but once you open that door.........

Peace

[basite]

what's happening, PSkies going to the world of analogue audio?

Bernd is indeed right that vinyl can (and will) become expensive after a while. It starts with a basic tt package, you'll start to tweak it, align it better, move it to another place in the room, add shock absorbing things, etc. Then you feel that you might just want a better cart, with the better cart there might also come a better phonopre, then you'll want to mod the tt, a little thing here and there, heck, maybe buy a better tt while you're at it . But trust me, it's worth it

soon after that you'll want to experiment with better pressings and import vinyl, maybe a better cleaning method too...

Pro-ject makes some packages, but we'll be happy to help you with any questions if you want to start better, most of those packages are for the lower priced tt's and the carts on those are give aways, there's much better out there for not so much more

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[PeruvianSkies]

I actually have a few hundred vinyl albums already (basically my parents were getting rid of them and so I took them and just hung onto them). Anyway, I have always been fascinated with what the analogue world can offer, especially since I am getting bored with digital. I, in some ways, feel that I have taken digital as far as I can go. Sure, I can always upgrade my equipment and such, but I feel that I have a good system right now and by comparison...I've heard some super-expensive systems and they all have a ceiling or peak point, which I am not light years from exactly, but close enough for now. Analogue in my experience offers music with a whole new depth and dimension that has always intrigued me. I noticed this for the very first time when I was a young boy and I was at my grandmothers house and she was playing Simon and Garfunkel's THE BOXER on an old old TT. The speakers weren't the greatest and none of the equipment was stellar, but I do recall a level of fidelity that I have rarely heard since, certainly not as CD, or even SACD too much. I have only heard a few analogue rigs, most of them were basic at a few shows. Nothing EXTREME (over 100K), but still very awesome setups. At that time I just wrote it off as something I could never really get into or afford, but now I am re-considering.

Not too long ago I also asked on here what would be a good entry system/setup and I got some great feedback regarding the Pro-ject line.

What kind of budget should I have in mind to get a very solid mid-level player that offers great ability to upgrade the parts in order to achieve a high-end player from it?

[jrhymeammo]

John,

There shouldnt be a single reason why I dont trust you, but you know my hatred towards Grado. But maybe I never got them to play correctly in my system. I remember reading about your Techno Weight mod and it sounds like an incredible upgrade. Man, I'm starting to wish I had a REGA.... Do you have BDR REGA kit? I would invest some dough into a phono pre then decide if you wanna go with LOMC cart. Com'on John. get on the Tube wagon and get yourself a Jolida phono pre


PS,

I say a $500 TT with a good $400 cart and $1K+ phono-pre would get you more bang than some $1500 TT and compromising the rest. I know I love mine.

JRA

[PeruvianSkies]

John,


I say a $500 TT with a good $400 cart and $1K+ phono-pre would get you more bang than some $1500 TT and compromising the rest. I know I love mine.

JRA

Can you provide me with some brands and models. I will start shopping around and see what I can come up with.

[basite]

for the tt: pro-ject, rega, music hall, thorens (but not their (semi-)automatics), maybe Michell (both used or new), clearaudio, maybe a used VPI, very maybe a used transrotor, I've heard good things about the technics sl1200 mkII maybe check that out too

for the cart: denon (their carts really give alot of bang for the buck, they like heavier arms though), clearaudio, ortofon, dynavector, grado (but you gotta have luck like John), ...

phonopre: simaudio moon, jolida, ear, pro-ject, clearaudio...


those are brands, check out some stuff (prices shouldn't be too hard to get) you can buy a used tt or phonopre, but don't buy used carts, they could be worn out...

I haven't got much time now but I'll be back later this day, check out some stuff from the brands above and see what you like, then we could help you with making sure it will work properly

also don't forget to get a stylus force gauge (from shure, pretty cheap, exellent thing though) and a protactor (those things can be found for cheap to, I found mine free (thanks JRA)) and a way of cleaning the stylus and the records. I use a Knosti Cleaning thing and a carbon fibre brush for the records, and a nagaoka fluid & a brush for the stylus tip.

Good luck

keep them spinning,
Bert.

[PeruvianSkies]

for the tt: pro-ject, rega, music hall, thorens (but not their (semi-)automatics), maybe Michell (both used or new), clearaudio, maybe a used VPI, very maybe a used transrotor, I've heard good things about the technics sl1200 mkII maybe check that out too

for the cart: denon (their carts really give alot of bang for the buck, they like heavier arms though), clearaudio, ortofon, dynavector, grado (but you gotta have luck like John), ...

phonopre: simaudio moon, jolida, ear, pro-ject, clearaudio...


those are brands, check out some stuff (prices shouldn't be too hard to get) you can buy a used tt or phonopre, but don't buy used carts, they could be worn out...

I haven't got much time now but I'll be back later this day, check out some stuff from the brands above and see what you like, then we could help you with making sure it will work properly

also don't forget to get a stylus force gauge (from shure, pretty cheap, exellent thing though) and a protactor (those things can be found for cheap to, I found mine free (thanks JRA)) and a way of cleaning the stylus and the records. I use a Knosti Cleaning thing and a carbon fibre brush for the records, and a nagaoka fluid & a brush for the stylus tip.

Good luck

keep them spinning,
Bert.

Is this a good deal???

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Rega-P1-LP-T...QQcmdZViewItem

[basite]

I'd aim higher, not that that is a bad tt, but I'd aim higher, maybe others will jump on this though...

[JohnMichael]

Is this a good deal???

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Rega-P1-LP-T...QQcmdZViewItem

The Rega P1comes with an Ortofon cart which is too tall for the arm w/o spacer. Rega does not supply the spacer so your vertical tracking angle is off. The table does not have the same arm as the P2 or P3 has and the better arm has won the Regas much of their attention.

In the under $1,000 dollar range you have the Rega P2 & 3, Music Hall's and Project's. The Music Hall's and Project's are usually bundled with mounted cartridges so you can start playing records right away with a minimal amount of set up knowledge.

In the $1,000 to $2,000 range I would check out the VPI Scout.

[JohnMichael]

John,

There shouldnt be a single reason why I dont trust you, but you know my hatred towards Grado. But maybe I never got them to play correctly in my system. I remember reading about your Techno Weight mod and it sounds like an incredible upgrade. Man, I'm starting to wish I had a REGA.... Do you have BDR REGA kit? I would invest some dough into a phono pre then decide if you wanna go with LOMC cart. Com'on John. get on the Tube wagon and get yourself a Jolida phono pre


JRA

No one is more surprised than I that I am enjoying a Grado. I can not explain the synergy but I can enjoy it. I have been spinning vinyl non-stop. For years I have heard people say that they are very good cartridges for very little money and I always thought bull****. I tried one in an S shaped tonearm one time and the cartridge did the Grado hop while playing. The sound was never bad but not what word of mouth said it was. Now I am hearing the magic. I am playing Maria Muldaur "Richland Woman Blues" and oh my so sweet.

My reason for clinging to the budget side of life right now is I am helping a friend reestablish his life. He made some drug related mistakes and was away for awhile. He has a job now and funding for some training. Soon my money will be for me and we will talk phono preamps.

I do not use the Black Diamind Racing cones but RDC cones. Feet do make a difference. The nice thing about the machined metal subplatter is the cartridge does not hum in the leadout groove. That much metal must act like a shield.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Is this a good deal???

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Rega-P1-LP-T...QQcmdZViewItem

As a recent re-convert(??) to vinyl I would say go for the analogue. The all important mid-range from a LP cannot be touched by anything but the best CD. The sound will draw you in and won't let you go. I find I don't have enough time to just sit and listen.

I recently picked up a cheapo Technics TT and put a AT440Mla cart. on it and after a few hours tweekin it sounded good but now that I have 'bout 20 hours on the cartridge it just gets better and better especially the high and lows. The imaging and depth are amazing. The acoustical sounds such as piano, strings, vocals, sax, horns etc just don't have the natural feel from CDs like they do from vinyl. The sound seems to just radiate from your speakers as opposed to being "thrown out" like on a CD. Of course I am talkin bout my setup only here. Actual results may vary.

I agree that you may want to spend the whole budget on a TT. Now I am going to be on the look out for a "good" turntable. If this is what a cheap setup can do the I just gotta have a decent TT and cartridge.

[hifitommy]

i just LOVED my F1+ in '76 and the f3e+ which is the equiv of the black always sounded decent. i had a $200 sig and that was also VG. the red is supposed to be the equiv of the f1+ and should be purty good.

i first used the f in my rabco st4 tt and then in the grace 707. excellent tracker, thats what blows my mind when i hear peep say they dont track well.

getting into vinyl shouldnt be costly, and i recommend that the first table has a detachable headshell to make it easy to mount, inspect, and switch cartridges. extra headshells are readily available by stanton for $10 or from sumiko for $40 (really worth the difference).

here are a few tables:


http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1191991902

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1191640665

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1191211518

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1190909637

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1190610595

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PIONEER-DIRECT-DRIVE-PL-530-PRO-TURNTABLE-LINEAR-TRACK_W0QQitemZ110158020553QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4864 9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the sonographe is pretty good, a friend has one. the micro looks nice too, it has a removable headshell but not the universal kind. lp gear might have that kind.

the pioneer on ebay says its linear but its a pivoted arm.

one of these inexpensive tables will give you a taste of this part of the hobby and if you live near pitt, you may have access to affordable vinyl. i typically pay a dollar here in LA. many more chances can be taken at $1 for used vinyl than can be taken on used CDs which typically go for much more used. if the vinyl is noisy and you really like the music, you can seek a better copy for a little more cash after only wasting a dollar for the opportunity to hear the music.

even when a disc is noisy you can many times hear the other superiorities of the vinyl medium that makes finding the quiet copy worthwhile.

[jrhymeammo]

John,

How is Grado tracking on higher frequency notes(Piano). Does it not breakup and distort? If it sounds half as good as you say, I may have to make a trip up north.

I agree that you may want to spend the whole budget on a TT. Now I am going to be on the look out for a "good" turntable. If this is what a cheap setup can do the I just gotta have a decent TT and cartridge.

I disagree. Of course I've never had a pleasure of playing a semi-exotic TT at home, such as Clearaudio Champion, VPI Scout, JA Mitchell Gyro SE. But, I strongly believe sound quality is vastly decided by what cart and phono you have. I would spend as much on a cart as you would on a TT, if we are talking about an entry level belt drive. With that in mind, I will be ditching my VTL TP-2.5 for some other phono pre before I spend more than $1K on a deck.

PS,

Not sure how what's so different about P1 you posted from ones you would get from a local store. But, I thought P1 w/ Ortofon OE5? was a solid deck. I'm not crazy about VTA as much as I used to be, but you must be ablet o adjust it. If RB100 arm cannot support spacers, then I would go ahead and forget about P1. Your future TT should be accomodate more than a handleful of cartridges.

I love HifiTommy;s suggest about removable headshells, but I would never have some vintage TT shipped via UPS/FedEx. Also, alot of vintage TTs do not have VTA adjustment.

Whatever you do, dont end up with a VPI Scout with a cart like Sumiko Oyster and Rolls VP-29. Then again, my first setup was a Pioneer PL-1000 w/ some Stanton DJ cart and Rolls VP-29 and thought vinyl was the greatest thing on earth, and I still do with different gears.

Regards,

NP LP: ColemanHawkins Septet fea. JJ Johnson adn Hank Jones. - Think Deep

Great stuff!


+

[hifitommy]

dont you think it would be wise to look into a good transformer or pre-preamp? i am sure the VTL phono would be great sounding. another thought is to stay with mm and go for a clearaudio aurum beta or similar cart. that series of MMs from clearaudio has been likened to mc sound.

[jrhymeammo]

VTL has a killer MM stage with great MC.
There is nothing wrong with it, but I would like to be involved with a phono pre with balanced outputs. But that's not gonna happen for a long time. Not this year, anyways. I have no experience with step-up transfomer, but I've read that it is never easy to integrate on into an external phonopre. Is that what you mean by a transformer? Also, can you enlighten me with what pre-preamp is? Dont think I've ever come across one.

Thanx

[hifitommy]

and yes, transformers are hard to intgrate. a pre-preamp does the same job with gain electronics rather than a transformer. counterpoint preamps ferinstance dont use transformers nor aesthetix.

there used to be a fair number of those prepreamps available before the advent of CD.

going balanaced can also be costly. if the VTL is good for low output mc, it seems like a keeper. different strokes.

[jrhymeammo]

there used to be a fair number of those prepreamps available before the advent of CD.
.

2nd time I've asked you the question about pre-preamp. Maybe it was Joe. Where is that crazy man.......

Yeah I agree about balanced, especially when it's loaded with tubes. But I like the idea of going balanced with adjustable gain. When I can afford it, I'm defintely gonna opt for one cuz I'm curious.

NP LP: Freddie Hubburd - Open Sesame. Just swapped IC between my phono and pre. Sounds very relaxed and smooth.Just the way LP should sound with tubes. Too bad I gotta go grab laundry after the first side....

JRA