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  1. #1
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Crackling on horns and Darkside of the Moon

    I'm trying to trouble shoot a problem. Would like some suggestions. I'm thinking my phono cart might have to be upgraded, but maybe not.

    Here is the problem. On horns, some singing, and many parts of the 30th Ann. Remastered 180g Darkside of the Moon the sound out of my TT crackles on complex parts or horns.

    The Darkside of the Moon LP is bran spanking new. So during complex parts it seems like the system just can't handle it.

    Could it be the cartridge? I've tried several different cables, and I would figure the AVA gear could handle it. The TT is good but not godly, Moon LP-3 is a Stereophile fave, so figure not that. Only thing left is the Shure cart.

    Suggestions? Questions?

    I'm going to take the TT in this week to get raised a bit to deal with the cartridge depth. I'm going to talk to the folks about a new cartridge, and I'm sure they will try to upsell me something, but I want to know what you'll think.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    I'm going to take the TT in this week to get raised a bit to deal with the cartridge depth. I'm going to talk to the folks about a new cartridge, and I'm sure they will try to upsell me something, but I want to know what you'll think.

    Three things, get the appropriate spacer so you are closer to the correct VTA, have them mount the cartridge using the Baerwald alignment and not the Rega alignment and while there have them check the VTF. If you use the brush on the cartridge did you add the aditional tracking force to compensate for the use of the brush.

    Also some records are not dehorned. After pressing there is a little more vinyl that the stylus will wear off and the record will sound better after a few plays.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  3. #3
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    I'm trying to trouble shoot a problem. Would like some suggestions. I'm thinking my phono cart might have to be upgraded, but maybe not.

    Here is the problem. On horns, some singing, and many parts of the 30th Ann. Remastered 180g Darkside of the Moon the sound out of my TT crackles on complex parts or horns.

    The Darkside of the Moon LP is bran spanking new. So during complex parts it seems like the system just can't handle it.

    Could it be the cartridge? I've tried several different cables, and I would figure the AVA gear could handle it. The TT is good but not godly, Moon LP-3 is a Stereophile fave, so figure not that. Only thing left is the Shure cart.

    Suggestions? Questions?

    I'm going to take the TT in this week to get raised a bit to deal with the cartridge depth. I'm going to talk to the folks about a new cartridge, and I'm sure they will try to upsell me something, but I want to know what you'll think.
    It's been a while since I've used it, but the phono stage in my pre-amp uses changeable resistors to set the impedance. When I was playing around with it I found that it the impedance wasn't set right it overloaded. I'm not sure if your phono amp is adjustable for impedence, but it would be worth a shot if it is.
    Audio;
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  4. #4
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Good point Geoffcin. His Moon LP3 can be set internally for both 40 and 60 db and either 100 ohm for moving coil and 47k for moving magnet. If it is not set correctly it could be overloading with too much amplification of the cartridge output.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  5. #5
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    awesome - thanks guys -

    I'm going to drop the TT off at the local hi-fi shop to set up everything the best they can.

  6. #6
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Good point Geoffcin. His Moon LP3 can be set internally for both 40 and 60 db and either 100 ohm for moving coil and 47k for moving magnet. If it is not set correctly it could be overloading with too much amplification of the cartridge output.
    Thank you sir! I'm interested in the same cart that Adam uses for my TT too. My vinyl rig is not nearly as good as his, but the Shure 97xE might be the right cart for it.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  7. #7
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Hey Adam, try to stick around and see if they'll show you a thing or two. That's how I've been learning.

  8. #8
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Hey Adam, try to stick around and see if they'll show you a thing or two. That's how I've been learning.
    HA! I'm not sure if I qualify, especially when it comes to vinyl. However I AM smart enough to know when to listen to people, so you were saying something about another cart that might be good for my old Marantz TT?
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  9. #9
    Vinyl Junkie slate1's Avatar
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    First off, good call on taking it to your local shop. That's your best resource for resolving a problem.

    A couple of things to note - what you are describing, in my experience, is either a classic example of mis-tracking, or you're overloading the phono-preamp. I've never heard the distortion you're describing as a result of improper VTA, impedence or capacitive loading.

    If you've got the Moon set to 60db of gain, that's probably your problem - if it's set to 40db, then it's most probably mistracking.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that the 30th Aniv. Ed. of DSotM is a notoriously difficult LP to properly track. However, the M97 is an excellent tracker and should be up to the task.

    If you've got the phono pre-amp set at 40db, then I don't think there's any question that the cartridge is just mis-aligned. I don't, and never will, trust the Rega alignment protractor. It's crap - Roy Gandy does a LOT of things right, but he grossly oversimplifies the need for absolute proper alignment and proper record cleaning.

    If you want to give it a go on your own, go to The Vinyl Engine and download a Rega Stevenson protractor and use it to properly align the cartridge - be patient, it's a lengthy and tedious process. The suggestion to align to Baerwald is a good idea, but, with the Rega arm there are far and few cartridges that will allow you to align to Baerwald due to the arms geometry.
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  10. #10
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slate1
    First off, good call on taking it to your local shop. That's your best resource for resolving a problem.

    A couple of things to note - what you are describing, in my experience, is either a classic example of mis-tracking, or you're overloading the phono-preamp. I've never heard the distortion you're describing as a result of improper VTA, impedence or capacitive loading.

    If you've got the Moon set to 60db of gain, that's probably your problem - if it's set to 40db, then it's most probably mistracking.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that the 30th Aniv. Ed. of DSotM is a notoriously difficult LP to properly track. However, the M97 is an excellent tracker and should be up to the task.

    If you've got the phono pre-amp set at 40db, then I don't think there's any question that the cartridge is just mis-aligned. I don't, and never will, trust the Rega alignment protractor. It's crap - Roy Gandy does a LOT of things right, but he grossly oversimplifies the need for absolute proper alignment and proper record cleaning.

    If you want to give it a go on your own, go to The Vinyl Engine and download a Rega Stevenson protractor and use it to properly align the cartridge - be patient, it's a lengthy and tedious process. The suggestion to align to Baerwald is a good idea, but, with the Rega arm there are far and few cartridges that will allow you to align to Baerwald due to the arms geometry.
    Thanks - I'll check the phono amp today when I get home. I've got to take it to the shop to get a spacer anyways - so they'll align for me. At least they said the would when I bought the TT a month or so ago.

  11. #11
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Getting a spacer and a new Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III cart. Hope it is good!

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    Getting a spacer and a new Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III cart. Hope it is good!


    I have only used the Blue Point 2 in my Rega and it was very nice sounding. I will look forward to your opinion of your table with the spacer and new cartridge.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  13. #13
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Adam, you've been duped by the audio establishment. Next time, ask me the answer. All you had to do was get a little bit of caulking, just a little bit....

  14. #14
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Adam, you've been duped by the audio establishment. Next time, ask me the answer. All you had to do was get a little bit of caulking, just a little bit....
    Man it is a good thing you live in Canada or I'd..... wait. I do know where you live!! EVIL HAHAHAHAH EVIL HAHAHAHAHA

  15. #15
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    Getting a spacer and a new Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III cart. Hope it is good!
    Congrats on getting a new cart! I've never heard a Sumiko cart, but I have heard some of their other gear from Rel and Sonus Farber and it's smoken!

    Actually, I might have heard a Sumiko cart before as this TT rig was one I've been eyeing for a while;

    http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/p...xpression3.htm

    I don't know how it would compare with the Music Hall MMF-5 which was the other TT on my short list.
    Audio;
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  16. #16
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    aA let us know when you have the ttable home and how it sounds. I hope the audible distortion will be gone.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
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  17. #17
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    aA let us know when you have the ttable home and how it sounds. I hope the audible distortion will be gone.
    So I've just now had a chance to spin a couple records on the TT with the new cart and set up and aligned correctly. I am very very happy. I now feel the ~$2500 investment in going analog was well worth it.

    I've only had a chance to spin Belle & Sebastian's Tigermilk (brand new 180g LP, spun twice so far) and the Eurythmics's Sweet Dreams (an old beat up LP).

    I've only had a chance to sit down and listen to the B&S record, the Euythmics was being played while cleaning but did sound way better than before.

    A couple things I've noticed. Soundstage is freaking wide. But it doesn't feel off. On the B&S record parts of the sound at times seemed to be wider than my room but the drums and singing (normally in dead center) didn't feel left out. So, in other words, it seemed like my speakers faded away and I was just presented with music.

    I choose to buy the Sumiko cart on recommendation from the LHFS based of my request and feelings of my amps/speaker set up. I feel that the AVA gear is pretty warm feeling for SS equipment and the P3 with the Shure was just too rich and deep at times and I didn't get a good feeling of detail and headroom. I guess I mean, upper frequencies just didn't seem in line. To faded.

    The Sumiko so far has turned this around.

    I did notice with the B&S LP a audible right ear lisp 'shhh' sound. I don't know it if the singer, the gear, or the room. The lisp was slightly distorted. You know, like, if your at a party, or in a room with a lot of people all talking. And there is the one person a bit away where you can just sort of overhear the person talk but everytime the person makes a 'shh' lisp sound it just sticks out. That is kind of what it was like. So I'll listen to hear for that on the next records I spin.

    But for now, shower time, off to hear a WAY better analog set up with the BAAS gathering this afternoon.

  18. #18
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    I now feel the ~$2500 investment in going analog was well worth it..
    That's always a good feeling!

    I'm pretty sure ( Shure?) that the Sumiko will get even BETTER as the cart breaks in.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
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  19. #19
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    So I've just now had a chance to spin a couple records on the TT with the new cart and set up and aligned correctly. I am very very happy. I now feel the ~$2500 investment in going analog was well worth it.

    I've only had a chance to spin Belle & Sebastian's Tigermilk (brand new 180g LP, spun twice so far) and the Eurythmics's Sweet Dreams (an old beat up LP).

    I've only had a chance to sit down and listen to the B&S record, the Euythmics was being played while cleaning but did sound way better than before.

    A couple things I've noticed. Soundstage is freaking wide. But it doesn't feel off. On the B&S record parts of the sound at times seemed to be wider than my room but the drums and singing (normally in dead center) didn't feel left out. So, in other words, it seemed like my speakers faded away and I was just presented with music.

    I choose to buy the Sumiko cart on recommendation from the LHFS based of my request and feelings of my amps/speaker set up. I feel that the AVA gear is pretty warm feeling for SS equipment and the P3 with the Shure was just too rich and deep at times and I didn't get a good feeling of detail and headroom. I guess I mean, upper frequencies just didn't seem in line. To faded.

    The Sumiko so far has turned this around.

    I did notice with the B&S LP a audible right ear lisp 'shhh' sound. I don't know it if the singer, the gear, or the room. The lisp was slightly distorted. You know, like, if your at a party, or in a room with a lot of people all talking. And there is the one person a bit away where you can just sort of overhear the person talk but everytime the person makes a 'shh' lisp sound it just sticks out. That is kind of what it was like. So I'll listen to hear for that on the next records I spin.

    But for now, shower time, off to hear a WAY better analog set up with the BAAS gathering this afternoon.


    Which height spacer did they use for your table?
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  20. #20
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Which height spacer did they use for your table?
    Oh, um, humm.... I forgot to ask. I suppose I can look.

    .... walking .... looking ..... walking back .......

    I'd have to say 2-3mm spacer.

  21. #21
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    OK! I'm so mad! I could scream at a beacon leg!.

    DSOTM still sucks on my system. It sounds compressed and distorted. sux sux sux.

  22. #22
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    OK! I'm so mad! I could scream at a beacon leg!.

    DSOTM still sucks on my system. It sounds compressed and distorted. sux sux sux.
    Maybe its just a crappy pressing.

  23. #23
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    OK! I'm so mad! I could scream at a beacon leg!.

    DSOTM still sucks on my system. It sounds compressed and distorted. sux sux sux.
    Take a deep breath.....good. OK, now take your DSOTM vinyl and toss it against the wall as hard as you can. NOW THAT FEELS BETTER!!!

    Really, poppa's got a great suggestion. Take YOUR copy of DSOTM and play it on someone elses system. If it doesn't do the same thing then you know it's not the vinyl.
    Audio;
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    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  24. #24
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Yeah - Thanks for the suggestions guys. I have a feeling it is just the re-engineering gone to crap.

    Oh well. At least it isn't my favorite PF release. So, just bummed about spending the cash on it.

  25. #25
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Remember that Waits original I scooped up? It actually doesn't sound that hot either. Sometimes that just happens with vinyl. That's why when you get a pressing that sounds awesome, you care for it like a diamond.

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