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  1. #1
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    Any ideas how this setup will sound?

    I just bought the Mrs a new ttable for her birthday. Her birthday is almost 2 weeks away, so I haven't listened to the new deck yet. Our old deck ruined records, so we never used it.

    Thus, my question:

    Any ideas on how this setup will sound? What's the weak spot?

    TTable is a new Pro-Ject 1Xpression, with a factory fitted sumiko Oyster cartridge.

    Hooked to a

    Dennon DRA775RD tuner, with 80 watts per channel (though I have heard the power rating may be a tad optimistic

    Driving

    Klipsch KG2.5 bookshelf speakers.


    What in this setup is likely to be the weak link? Thus far, I have used the tuner and speakers (and a CD player) to play CD's, and the sound has been decent. Now I want to add vinyl to the mix, and perhaps upgrade the electronics a bit.

    Thanks!

    Vespadaddy

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vespoadaddy
    I just bought the Mrs a new ttable for her birthday. Her birthday is almost 2 weeks away, so I haven't listened to the new deck yet. Our old deck ruined records, so we never used it.

    Thus, my question:

    Any ideas on how this setup will sound? What's the weak spot?

    TTable is a new Pro-Ject 1Xpression, with a factory fitted sumiko Oyster cartridge.

    Hooked to a

    Dennon DRA775RD tuner, with 80 watts per channel (though I have heard the power rating may be a tad optimistic

    Driving

    Klipsch KG2.5 bookshelf speakers.


    What in this setup is likely to be the weak link? Thus far, I have used the tuner and speakers (and a CD player) to play CD's, and the sound has been decent. Now I want to add vinyl to the mix, and perhaps upgrade the electronics a bit.

    Thanks!

    Vespadaddy
    One thing to check is to make sure your Denon receiver has a phono input. I am not familiar with that model and if it does not you will have to purchase a seperate phono preamp to raise the signal of the cartridge to the level needed for the inputs. The output of the cartridge is much lower than a cd player and it also needs the proper eq to balance the sound. One thing to improve on down the road is a cartridge with an elliptical stylus which will give you better defined sound than the spherical stylus of the Oyster. Welcome to Audioreview.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply, John.

    Most of what I have read seems to indicate that the Pro-Ject deck is worthy of a much better cartridge than the Oyster that is factory fitted.

    I don't know much about audio--just what I have read in the last week or two as background info gathering, prior to my selection of a new ttable for the Mrs.

    I have had the Denon receiver for 7 or 8 years. It does have a phono input, so I shouldn't need to buy a phono pre amp.

    It will be interesting to see if the Denon/Klipsch combo will produce sufficiently clean sound such that I will be able to hear the improvement in sound that an upgraded cartridge should offer. I really have no idea as of now, and I won't be able to hear the turntable at all until Sept. 10th, when my wife unwraps it (she has no idea her vinyl collection is about to be back in play).

    Cheers,

    Dan

  4. #4
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Yep, that sumiko oyster sounded like bad digital (mid 80's cd) on my Pro-ject 1.2. At least it did to me. Others new to analog have said that it sounds very "detailed" in the treble. Some of the cartridges to look at are the Ortofon Super OM 20 & 30, Audio-Technica 440ML and Shure M97XE. I would stick with a moving magnet type for higher output than a moving coil as you use the phono section of your Denon receiver. I was told by a Pro-ject dealer that I might have hum issues with a Grado cartridge due to lack of shielding, but I've read that other users haven't had any problems. If you're willing to take a chance, the Grado Red might be an option.

    (I replaced my Oyster with a new old stock Parasound cart that was offered on eBay by www.edsaunders.com. It's not bad for a $35 cart, but it would be difficult to find.)

  5. #5
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vespoadaddy
    I just bought the Mrs a new ttable for her birthday. Her birthday is almost 2 weeks away, so I haven't listened to the new deck yet. Our old deck ruined records, so we never used it.

    Thus, my question:

    Any ideas on how this setup will sound? What's the weak spot?

    TTable is a new Pro-Ject 1Xpression, with a factory fitted sumiko Oyster cartridge.

    Hooked to a

    Dennon DRA775RD tuner, with 80 watts per channel (though I have heard the power rating may be a tad optimistic

    Driving

    Klipsch KG2.5 bookshelf speakers.


    What in this setup is likely to be the weak link? Thus far, I have used the tuner and speakers (and a CD player) to play CD's, and the sound has been decent. Now I want to add vinyl to the mix, and perhaps upgrade the electronics a bit.

    Thanks!

    Vespadaddy
    It should sound good or even great compared to the CD even with the Oyster cartridge.
    Although not a bad cartridge it is the weak link.
    I changed mine out for a Shure
    http://www.jacksmusicfactory.com/default.asp?lid=116
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  6. #6
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    Thanks to all for the replies. Now I have a few suggestions for cartridge upgrades.

    A cart. that has a bias towards treble may not be a bad thing for me, as the Klipsch bookshelf speakers sit on the floor, and the bass is at times a bit too heavy. Thus, I may just keep the Oyster cart., at least for a while.

    Just 10 days until I can hear the Replacements on vinyl!!!!

    Vespadaddy

  7. #7
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    Well, I'm somewhat...

    Quote Originally Posted by vespoadaddy
    I just bought the Mrs a new ttable for her birthday. Her birthday is almost 2 weeks away, so I haven't listened to the new deck yet. Our old deck ruined records, so we never used it.

    Thus, my question:

    Any ideas on how this setup will sound? What's the weak spot?

    TTable is a new Pro-Ject 1Xpression, with a factory fitted sumiko Oyster cartridge.

    Hooked to a

    Dennon DRA775RD tuner, with 80 watts per channel (though I have heard the power rating may be a tad optimistic

    Driving

    Klipsch KG2.5 bookshelf speakers.


    What in this setup is likely to be the weak link? Thus far, I have used the tuner and speakers (and a CD player) to play CD's, and the sound has been decent. Now I want to add vinyl to the mix, and perhaps upgrade the electronics a bit.

    Thanks!

    Vespadaddy
    ...familiar with your system as I have a 75 WPC Denon receiver, had a pair of KG2s, and I have heard the Pro-Ject 1.2 and 2.1. No, not all together, and not exactly the same components.

    As someone also stated, I'm also not a huge fan of the supplied cart. To me, it seemed a bit on the "boring" side... competant, but not overwhelming. A friend bought the 2.1, and installed a Grado Gold - mucho better. I know the Gold is a lot of money for a relatively inexpensive rig, but the point is the table is able to discern differences.

    I thought my KG2s were a bit of a disappointment compared to the Boston A70s I just sold... live and learn, I guess. Not that the Ks were horrible, but not what I was expecting. Not sure of your driver configuration... mine were a large stand-mount with a horn (natch) tweeter and an 8", with a rear 10" drone. I recently heard the KG3.5s at a friends, and they sounded better than I remembered...go figure.

    Bottom line is your rig seems decent and well-balanced to me, you'll really have to listen to other components if you want to make incremental changes. I would simply enjoy it, and save for BIG changes! If anything, maybe a new cart for now, but no hurry, along with inexpensive room treatments if you feel they are needed.

    Hhmmm... that Ferrari red Bellini phono pre @ $199 seems interesting...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy C
    .Hhmmm... that Ferrari red Bellini phono pre @ $199 seems interesting...
    Damn, you just had to bring up the pre amp question!

    Who are TUBE pre-amps designed for? I know that if you don't have a phono-in, you need a pre-amp. My Denon DRA775 RD DOES have a pre-amp, so I shouldn't NEED a pre-amp.

    But.....

    Would a tube pre-amp provide better sound, even if it is fed to my electronic amp?

    Or are tube pre-amps designed for use only by people with tube amps?

    Tube amps seem to be pretty spendy, so if it would help the sound, I would probably buy a kit, perhaps a Bottlehead kit.

    I'm guessing a speedbox would be more important to the sound of my current setup, but I would like to hear more about tube pre-amps.

    Cheers,

    Vespadaddy

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    First and foremost do not get obsessed about tweaks at this point. Give the table and help hook it up and enjoy. Give yourself time to get used to the sound of your system playing vinyl again. The phono preamp in your Denon may be very nice. After you listen for awhile decide if there is an area that needs improvement. We will all be here with suggestions at that point. Allow yourself the joy of new equipment.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  10. #10
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    Wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by vespoadaddy
    Damn, you just had to bring up the pre amp question!

    Who are TUBE pre-amps designed for? I know that if you don't have a phono-in, you need a pre-amp. My Denon DRA775 RD DOES have a pre-amp, so I shouldn't NEED a pre-amp.

    But.....

    Would a tube pre-amp provide better sound, even if it is fed to my electronic amp?

    Or are tube pre-amps designed for use only by people with tube amps?

    Tube amps seem to be pretty spendy, so if it would help the sound, I would probably buy a kit, perhaps a Bottlehead kit.

    I'm guessing a speedbox would be more important to the sound of my current setup, but I would like to hear more about tube pre-amps.

    Cheers,

    Vespadaddy

    ...I just typed an essay that got erased due to my computer being slow, as well as my own idiocy...lol... I'll try again!

    I just ordered the Bellari (not "Bellini", sorry) just outta curiousity. It's a moving magnet pre, tubed, and reasonably priced. I'll letcha know in a week or so if it betters my built-in Rotel. That phono pre ain't bad... I'm just hoping that that 'lil tube might add a bit of magic... we'll see. I'm going to need an outboard when I order my integrated, anyway. Err... yup - I've been saying that for a year or so...lol. SOMEDAY I'll get it! Geez... gas just went up $.6 overnight, but I stand resolute... work a bit harder, and hope we don't get dicked for TOO long!

    Generally, the phono board in a receiver is not much more than an afterthought... again, I'm not familiar with your stereo.

    I'll let you know...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy C
    ...I just typed an essay that got erased due to my computer being slow, as well as my own idiocy...lol... I'll try again!

    I just ordered the Bellari (not "Bellini", sorry) just outta curiousity. It's a moving magnet pre, tubed, and reasonably priced..

    Hmmm. I hope the Denon pre-amp in my receiver isn't an afterthought. The Pioneer TTable we have hooked to the system sounds like a Fisher-Price phonograph. I'm hoping I have spent my way out of that problem with the Pro-Ject 1Xpression. I'll have to wait until the 10th to find out.

    So that Bellari tube amp is only $199? That's cheaper than the Bottlehead kits, isn't it? Are the two comparable? I hope I won't need to find out with my own ears anytime soon. I AM really looking forward to hearing some sweet music being lifted from the grooves of my wife's stellar indi-rock record collection.

    Vespadaddy

  12. #12
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy C
    ...I just typed an essay that got erased due to my computer being slow, as well as my own idiocy...lol... I'll try again!

    I just ordered the Bellari (not "Bellini", sorry) just outta curiousity. It's a moving magnet pre, tubed, and reasonably priced. I'll letcha know in a week or so if it betters my built-in Rotel. That phono pre ain't bad... I'm just hoping that that 'lil tube might add a bit of magic... we'll see. I'm going to need an outboard when I order my integrated, anyway. Err... yup - I've been saying that for a year or so...lol. SOMEDAY I'll get it! Geez... gas just went up $.6 overnight, but I stand resolute... work a bit harder, and hope we don't get dicked for TOO long!

    Generally, the phono board in a receiver is not much more than an afterthought... again, I'm not familiar with your stereo.

    I'll let you know...
    JimmyC - thanks for being our test case on the Bellari. Can't wait for your report!

  13. #13
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    Not sure what model...

    ...Pioneer you have, but if it's anything like my friend's old PL2 (?), you're right... it sounds like a toy. If your table is a plastic fantastic from the 80s (relatively inexpensive), I'm sure the Pro-Ject will be a huge step up. Let us know!

    I'm not at all familiar with the Bottleheads, but I hear nothing but good things... they look very interesting. I toyed around with that idea, but not into all the soldering at this point. It's difficult to side-by-side compare different stages with each other, and I don't have too much experience with many outboard preamps.

    Oh... I can offer a word of advise... do NOT listen to an Audio Research PH3 or 5 until you are ready to buy it.

    And, yup Dean... I'm the guinea pig! I'm not expecting too much for $200, but who knows... I might be pleasantly suprised!

    Should be fun...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy C
    ...Pioneer you have, but if it's anything like my friend's old PL2 (?), you're right... it sounds like a toy. If your table is a plastic fantastic from the 80s (relatively inexpensive), I'm sure the Pro-Ject will be a huge step up. Let us know!
    Our current table (maybe I should just call it a record player?), is a Pioneer PL-600. It is made of plastic, and while the tonearm is adjustable, there is also a slider switch on the front of the table marked 'arm elevation'. I don't know why this feature exists, as I would assume it is best to adjust the arm by balancing it, especially since too little downforce on the arm can cause a lot of damage to the vinyl.

    We will probably throw this deck into the trash bin once we have the 1Xpression up and running. 8 days and counting.....

  15. #15
    Mutant from table 9
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    I have that same Pioneer PL 600. I bought it in 1993 and it was the only table I could find. It was after CDs established their near monopoly, but before the popularity and availabilty of DJ decks exploded. Plus, the internet was still years away, which meant I was stuck with that crap. But it got me back to vinyl. I then supplemented it with a 1978 vintage technics. I still use the technics on my second system, its like a belt drive 1200, but not a real 1200. But that Pioneer is gathering dust in the basement.

    My main system has a Music Hall MMF 5 table, which is made by Project and very similar to your new table. However, it has a Goldring cart and needle that is supposedly leaps and bounds above the Oyster. But I've never heard the Oyster, and the Goldring jacks the price another $200, so YMMV.

    So, I've played the same copy of "Pleased to Meet Me" many times on all three decks and the Music Hall is a "face melter" to quote Jack Black. My years of feedback problems were gone. There was no persistant buzz. I had suffered through years of distortion on inner tracks (you know, last track before the lable) and it was all gone instantly. Plus there was no rumble between tracks. CDs have been relegated to my car forever.

    I think you'll be blown away by the difference. Tweaks and mods will follow, its part of the fun. Listen first before you worry about the cart. You may be pleased straight out the box. My order of mods would be:
    1. Subwoofer - doesn't have to be big, maybe 8"/100watts/$200-$300/Velodyne, Polk, klipsch, ect. Set the crossover at a low 50 to 60 hz, and it really brings out the bottom end that the Pioneer couldn't translate that the project now will. i.e.Queen's The Game just gets stoopid good.
    2. Stable table base. Maybe wall mount. Homemade or retail works.
    3. Speed box. Convenient and nifty.
    4. Stand alone preamp.

    Anyway. Have fun, and never pay more than $3 for a record.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlumpBuster
    I have that same Pioneer PL 600. I bought it in 1993 and it was the only table I could find. It was after CDs established their near monopoly, but before the popularity and availabilty of DJ decks exploded. Plus, the internet was still years away, which meant I was stuck with that crap. But it got me back to vinyl. I then supplemented it with a 1978 vintage technics. I still use the technics on my second system, its like a belt drive 1200, but not a real 1200. But that Pioneer is gathering dust in the basement.

    I think you'll be blown away by the difference. Tweaks and mods will follow, its part of the fun. Listen first before you worry about the cart. You may be pleased straight out the box.

    Anyway. Have fun, and never pay more than $3 for a record.
    Thanks for the info, Slumpbuster,

    I am really hoping that I'll hear a significant difference in sound with the new Pro-Ject table. The Pioneer PL 600 sounds AWFUL. Cd's, when played through my receiver, via my Denon CD changer, sound really nice, with good punch in the midrange. I'm not familiar with the concept of a 'wider soundstage', so I can't comment on that aspect. Perhaps my speakers are too close together. I dunno.

    Anyway, I'll report back after I hear how the new deck sounds.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  17. #17
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    New TTAble in operation! Whoo Hoo!

    I watched my wife unwrap her new Pro-Ject 1Xpression turntable with gleeful anticipation. She was as excited about the prospect of listening to records again as I thought she would be. Whoo Hoo.

    On to my opinions-

    The table was well packed. So well packed that I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new turntable from a mail order house. The cardboard box had a slight dent in one corner, but all of the contents inside were fine (it was a SMALL dent).

    I removed the transport screws from the motor housing, wiped down the belt and pulleys and installed the platter and felt. No problem, thus far, now on to the tonearm.

    The cartridge on the 1Xpression is pre-mounted, and while I have not yet used the protractor that is included in the box, the cartridge didn't look horribly askew, so I'll probably leave the cartridge alignment alone. (Can you tell we really wanted to hear some sweet vinyl music?).

    Ah, yes, the tonearm. I removed the twisty-tie that holds the tonearm down for shipping, pushed the counter-weight onto the end of the tonearm, and re-read the instructions for balancing. After looking up the info (supplied) for the downforce required for the Sumiko Oyster, I turned the dial on the counterweight clockwise until it indicated '23'. When I released the tonearm, the needle end went skyward immediately. As Conan Obrian would say "What In The World?!?!?!?! Someone please tell the Czech interpreter that counterclockwise is not the same as clockwise.

    After turning the counterweight dial in the OPPOSITE direction from what is written in the directions (slightly nerve wracking for someone who has never owned a decent turntable, much less set one up), the arm sank gently when released. I took this as a positive sign, as the ttable will make no music if the needle isn't touching the vinyl.

    We dropped an old Star Wars sound track onto the table, figuring it is best to try out a new ttable on expendable vinyl, and away we went. Sound! Yay~!

    First up was the Replacements 'Let it Be' It was fun to listen to, but it is either a lo-fi recording, or it is a bit worn. Herb Alpert and Pavement sounded great.

    The Ttable is hooked up to a Denon DRA 775 receiver pushing about 75 watts per channel to a pair of Klipsch KG 2.5 speakers. When I use the Denon CD player, I need to turn the bass down almost as far as the know will go to balance the sound. Not so with the ttable.

    The sound the Pro-Ject makes is without a doubt the best I have ever heard from a record player. Highs and lows seem well represented and there isn't much background noise, just a steady stream of flowing music.

    Was this table worth the $400 dollars I paid for it (new)? Would the cheaper Goldring 1.2 ($325) have sounded just as well? For the first question, I think so, for the latter, who knows?

    It will be interesting to see if a higher-priced cartridge makes any difference in sound quality at some point in the future, but for now, we're enjoying the table as-is.

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