Tube Versus SolidState

[topspeed]

That someone might read one side of the issue and be swayed without knowing the whole issue. If you feel it's "inane", I'm afraid you don't have much of a grasp of the issue.

You assume too much. Do you know what happens when someone assumes too much? You make an ass out of you and umption. If someone has the temerity to believe one opinion over another without exercising enough diligence to form one for themselves, then they get what they deserve. This thread was started by a sh*t stirrer. You've been around long enough to recognize that there is no right or wrong answer to this query. Only opinion. Think about it,

"why I would or would not want tube or solidstate

Are you kidding?! Let's do the Ford vs. Chevy or Yankees vs. Redsox while we're at it (I'd do Dodgers vs. Giants but let's face it, the Dodgers suck...and I'm a fan!). Here's an idea: buy whatever sounds best to you.

Yes, tubes and solid state amps are a preference. But it is not true that one is "right" or accurate and the other wrong and inaccurate. That's the part I'm debating. I will certainly never convince Skeptic

Exactly.

perhaps a newbie to tubes will take note

Only if they weren't completely disenfranchised with this "discussion" many threads ago.

If this debate is a problem for you, please feel free to skip over it. It's a public board and you're free to read or not read whatever you like.

Hey, I've said it many times before that I learn more from these sites than any mag. I just don't find any value in a debate based on personal preference and perceptions.

For the record, I don't lean one way or the other in this matter. I just buy what sounds best to me regardless of how it's made. Novel approach, huh?

[DMK]

You assume too much. Do you know what happens when someone assumes too much? You make an ass out of you and umption. If someone has the temerity to believe one opinion over another without exercising enough diligence to form one for themselves, then they get what they deserve. This thread was started by a sh*t stirrer. You've been around long enough to recognize that there is no right or wrong answer to this query. Only opinion. Think about it, Are you kidding?! Let's do the Ford vs. Chevy or Yankees vs. Redsox while we're at it (I'd do Dodgers vs. Giants but let's face it, the Dodgers suck...and I'm a fan!). Here's an idea: buy whatever sounds best to you.

Exactly.

Only if they weren't completely disenfranchised with this "discussion" many threads ago.

Hey, I've said it many times before that I learn more from these sites than any mag. I just don't find any value in a debate based on personal preference and perceptions.

For the record, I don't lean one way or the other in this matter. I just buy what sounds best to me regardless of how it's made. Novel approach, huh?

Assume? You must be joking! It happens all the time around here! Yes, I've been around long enough to have read such posts for years. Someone asks a question and gets a one sided answer that they blindly follow. Yes, they get what they deserve. So let's give them both sides and then what they deserve is balanced. Another novel approach, no? If YOU learn more from this site than any mag, why are you denying that learning to others that perhaps don't have the foresight you have to seek out both sides of the issue?

You're right; a debate based on personal preference and perceptions is worthless. So let's take the tube/solid debate down to its essence and strip away the gloss. The debate on one side is that tubes are euphonic, colored, with bloated bass, rolled off highs and high distortion numbers. This side of the debate is based on numbers and pre-conceived notions. When someone with seemingly a lot of technical expertise but no listening experience spouts it, it becomes believable to newbies. then they scratch tubes off their list without ever taking the time to audition some and discover if they can use your approach and find out which sounds best. It's a fallacy called Poisoning The Well. And it happens (and is effective) all the time. Oh, and it works both ways. I could post that measurements in audio don't matter and people might believe it. If you doubt that, take a looks at the cable debate! When enough people believe a one sided story, they buy $3000 interconnects. And btw, Yankees vs Red Sox might be an interesting debate with all the deals those two have won and lost this year.

[skeptic]

" I will certainly never convince Skeptic of anything "

Since I am convinced by facts, not personal preferences, apparantly you won't.

In the debate between tubes and solid state, I have said many times that there are excellent examples and horrible examples of both. I stick with the observation of my experience which confirms my understanding of how both types work that at their very best, the best solid state amplifiers outperform the best tube amplifiers. What does outperform mean? They not only test better but they sound better. And as for the "average" solid state versus the "average" tube amplifier, I have had the same experience.

What does sound better mean? Clearer, wider range, better able to get the most accurate sound out of most of the speakers they are connected to. If other people have a different opinion or experience, that's fine with me. I don't sell this stuff and these are merely machines, not a religion to me. I also have no position on whether the best rotary engine would outperform the best reciprocating piston engine although I note that most serious auto racing mechanics and drivers choose the later.

[topspeed]

I also have no position on whether the best rotary engine would outperform the best reciprocating piston engine although I note that most serious auto racing mechanics and drivers choose the later.

Well, the main problem is that rotary's have a problem with torque production which limits the drive out of the corners. To offset that, they are lighter, smaller, and it's easier to extract better hp/cc numbers out of them. Does this offset the better torque and "racing characteristics" of pistons? It did at the '91 Le Mans. Unfortunately, after that Mazda withdrew from big time int'l racing. Rumor at the time was the 787b was to be replaced with a 5 rotor if I remember right (it was awhile ago). Hmmm, coulda been interesting...

As for the topic, here's a completely unbiased and objective answer:

Solid State: easier to maintain, not as sexy as glowing tubes (yes, even JRG amps look dowdy next to a Hovland), good ones can be practically bullet proof with little or no attention.

Tubes: require more owner interaction, more succeptable to damage if tubes are left uncovered, not as prevalent as ss amps thereby limiting choices to a some degree, good ones can be practically bullet proof but will require attention.

That's it.

BTW, the Yanks are the evil empire

[skeptic]

"Well, the main problem is that rotary's have a problem with torque production which limits the drive out of the corners."

All gasoline engines have torque problems or they wouldn't need a transmission, an inefficient klunky contraption of gears, bands, valves, and a lot of other complicated parts which can be remarkably reliable after a hundred years of development. OTOH, you want low end torque, get a compound or series wound motor and drive it from a generator driven by an engine at its optimum speed. You'll get all the low end torque you can stand.

Bullet proof? Nothing is bullet proof. I've met plenty of people who can find a way to wreck just about anything. And the most talented of them can do it on the first attempt without even trying. "Hey look at this part that just came off in my hand. What does that do?" "What happens if I push this button like this???? Oops! Sorry!!! Why didn't you tell me before it did that???"

[DMK]

[QUOTE=skeptic]" I will certainly never convince Skeptic of anything "

Since I am convinced by facts, not personal preferences, apparantly you won't.QUOTE]

Touche. But I wasn't aware that reliability was a personal preference.

[RGA]

Just a note at least about class A. If the best SS amp is indeed Krell then why is it class A. If McIntosh makes the best SS amp why is their best amp a Tube? Why do so many Bryston owners clue in and buy tubes...more to the point why does the reverse not happen. Admittedly the sample is Audio Asylum...or posters here. But it sure does SEEM like this is the case.

Ahh we all love that lush midrange...is it adding or does the bryston subtract? Makes no difference if the former sounds better.

And which sounds beter is subjective - those sure are not objective facts.

[E-Stat]

I personally gave up on tube amplifiers around 1968. I got tired of their less than clear sound.

Given your love of classical music, that is a shame. Virtually all of the best tube amps available today were developed after '68. Practicality is not thy name, but to these ears, there are sonic advantages. That has been my experience since '81 when I purchased my first ARC preamp. Given that the circuit designs haven't radically changed and the tubes themselves haven't evolved, what has changed? Quite a bit.

1. Higher quality passive parts including lower noise resistors, better capacitors, better connectors, better wire.
2. Better transformers for those that are not OTL.
3. Much larger and stiffer power supplies. My pair has 1000 joules.
4. High power designs required by many speaker designs are now common.

While I'll concede the top end to solid state designs, from there downwards there are tube amps that match or beat the best SS designs I've heard. Bass? You bet. My VTLs have better punch than my Threshold Stasis. More importantly, it has better harmonic resolution on upper bass material like concert drum and tympani. You can discern details like the size of the mallet used. The Joule OTL amps are better still. The midrange is owned by tube designs, IMHO. Massed strings are reproduced with the full harmonic richness and "rosin" of the real thing.

I tried a trick suggested by a poster over at AA that was supposed to make my SS design sound like the tube. He suggested putting a resistor in series with the speaker cable. While that did have a subtle tonal effect, in no way did that magically give the Threshold the kind of midrange purity that the VTL has.

Tubes are relatively expensive, a pain to maintain, and clearly not for everyone. I'm still anxiously awaiting a SS design to change my mind. I'm told the Pass XA-160 and the big GamuT amps come the closest. I would very much like to hear them.

rw

[skeptic]

"1. Higher quality passive parts including lower noise resistors, better capacitors, better connectors, better wire.
2. Better transformers for those that are not OTL.
3. Much larger and stiffer power supplies. My pair has 1000 joules.
4. High power designs required by many speaker designs are now common."

Except for #2 because solid state amplifiers don't usually have output transformers, the same can be said for solid state equipment too. Installing a resistor in series with the output reduces the effective amplifier damping factor (adversely) altering the bass response on some speakers. It will not alter the other factors which cause solid state and tube amplifiers to make loudspeakers sound different.

Bob Carver once boasted that given 24 hours, he could make any amplifier sound like any other amplifier by changing its "Transfer Function." Transfer function is a fancy term electrical engineers use which loosely translated into english means frequency response. I think he was right. Most if not all of the subtle differences between many amplifiers can be compensated for in this way. (BTW, Carver designed and sold both ss and tube amplifiers.)

OK, here's a trick you CAN use to make some judgements about amplifiers which comes from old time engineers. Listen to an amplifier playing at very low volume. Use efficient speakers for this test if possible. Put your ear right up to the speaker. This keeps the signal near the zero crossing point for class AB amplifiers and you may be able to detect crossover notch distortion in either transistor or tube amplifers. In good designs, this can be corrected by adjusting the bias current. In poor designs, you are just stuck with it. The best method is to use a distortion analyzer but if you don't have one, the manufacturer's instructions for adjusting it can be used. Unfortunately, this doesn't usually come with the equipment, only the service manual has it and you often need to be a technician to make use of it.

Since the same tube designs used in the 60s are used today, the circuit possibilities have not changed much. There is really nothing new under the sun. A KT88 is still a KT88 and a 12AX7A is still a 12AX7A. You can push the tubes harder to get more power out of them but that's nothing new. Transformer iron such as supermalloy were well know in the 50s and 60s and audio output transformers were once mass produced. Today, they are far fewer and further between. Does changing all of the parts in a vacuum tube design help? Better power supplies could. As for the others, maybe yes, maybe no. IMO, the best vacuum tube amplifiers will have solid state power supplies. NYAL gave an extensive presentation at the NY chapeter of the AES in 1983 and while bringing Futterman's tube design up to then contemporary standards, there was no doubt that they would use a ss power supply to optimize it.

[E-Stat]

Bob Carver once boasted that given 24 hours, he could make any amplifier sound like any other amplifier by changing its "Transfer Function."

Except of course for his Silver 7 tube amps. His reply during an interview was he got "close as possible".

You can push the tubes harder to get more power out of them but that's nothing new.

Or choice "B", use more of them.

Does changing all of the parts in a vacuum tube design help?

The answer would be yes. If you don't think capacitors have a "sound" then replace any signal caps with electrolytics and get back with me.

IMO, the best vacuum tube amplifiers will have solid state power supplies.

Many current tube designers like Luke Manley of VTL share that belief.

rw

[skeptic]

"Many current tube designers like Luke Manley of VTL share that belief."

While the audible effects of signal processing through vacuum tubes versus various types and configurations of transistors can be debated endlessly, the superiority of the solid state diode over vacuum tube diodes is beyond dispute. The use of vacuum tube diodes for some new retro vacuum tube amplifiers is a marketing ploy rather than a real attempt to get the best technology has to offer, MikE's opinion of his "Moth" amplifier notwithstanding.

[E-Stat]

The use of vacuum tube diodes for some new retro vacuum tube amplifiers is a marketing ploy rather than a real attempt to get the best technology has to offer...

I can offer zero in the way of any technical explanation, but here's one right stuff engineer who would disagree and is not usually subject to stylish whims:



It would be interesting to hear Bill Z. Johnson's commentary since only the big Reference Audio Research amps use tube rectification. Having said that, the two best tube amps in my experience, the VTL Wotans and the Joule Electra Rite of Passages, both use SS regulation.

rw

[hifitommy]

I need to determine why I would or would not want tube or solidstate. Any comments?

some of both are better than the other. there are reasons for liking each and distortion isnt one of them. thats a common BS misconception just as the one that vinyl is a distortion. pardon me while i cough. KAKAKABULLLSHOT!!

every time there is a sound that some cant attribute to a good or bad reason, they say its a distortion. ya, like sacd is a distortion over rbcd?! i don tink so! more pleasing to the human ear is that which is closer to reality. uuuuuuuuuuuuh, LESS distortion.

when i switched to my arc preamp, things didnt get WARMER and slower or rolled off. they got wider in dynamic range, frequency response, and more tonally accurate. this is a 1979 design (SOTA at that time)and i was not expecting the results i got. now, coupled with my adcom 555II amp, i am quite happy but if i could have some VTL or arc amps of about 100wpc i would be happy to go that way. got money?

tube maintenance: $2-10/tube. how much for transistors when they fail? ever price a transistor amp failure repair? i have ($300). tubes can be removed and replaced by your child. not so with transistors.

sub outputs/bass management-out of your hands and int the hands of those that dont know your equipment. xover points and MONO bass of someone else's priorities. youve gotta buy the woofer THEY had in mind.

" vacuum tubes begin to deteriorate from the minute they are first turned on " and ss doesnt deteriorate at all "from the minute they are first turned on "? what a convenient thought.

"Transistors themselves don't wear out. If their crystaline structure breaks down even slightly, they will almost certainly undergo catastrophic failure" HMMMMMMM?!

[rb122]

every time there is a sound that some cant attribute to a good or bad reason, they say its a distortion. ?!

Either a distortion or you never heard it at all!

I'm certainly no scientist but I can buy into the measurements as a barometer for good sound. I can NOT buy into measurements as the final word in everything that is heard ... oh, unless it's a distortion that's heard. If tubes and vinyl are distorted products, then live music is distorted. If solid state and CD are accurate to the recording, then the recording is not accurate to live music. Or, more likely, we just don't measure everything there is to measure in order to explain how music is reproduced.

[E-Stat]

Or, more likely, we just don't measure everything there is to measure in order to explain how music is reproduced.

Bingo.

rw

[RGA]

Quite simply if it has that accurate sound...you know the type of sound that people say has a bit of etchiness common to a Bryston mated with a metal tweeter. If adjectives come out like check out the accuracy of these babies. Then guess what? It's not accuracy. You don't go to a live event saying check out the accuracy of that cymbol. Added grain is often noted as accurate because it sounds like added sparkle. Problem is so much of it sounds like this today that people don't have a proper refernece.

Hfitommy. You'll be interested in the latest issue (#69) of UHF where they discuss SS and Tubes Page 21 "The Return to Tubes".

There is one VTL Tube amp that is 400 watts has a defeatable digital display that tells you the operating parameter of the tubes, the temperature of the amp, how long they've been used, it self biases between EVERY track...and as an additional bonus if one shuts off during play it disabless a tube on the other channel to keep everything in balance so you have no down time. It's called the VTL S-400. The thing can also be connected to your computer to have the read out on there instead of the unit itself. No price but you can bet it's up there.

They also review several Tube amps and those gorgeous Shanling power monoblocks. Interestingly Tubes are still being used in recording studios again and apparently the article indicates that for low impedence electrostatic speakers tubes are far superior than solid state.

I also liked their anaology of Yamah trying to build the fastest canoe in the world with their supercomputers and engineers...yet the handbuilt Cree without all that beat Yamaha's engineers and experts and computers and brain power with ease EVERY TIME. Yamaha then licensed the Cree technology - or lack there of. Tube amps have been getting better and better mixing the best of today's technology with Tubes of old.

[rb122]

Quite simply if it has that accurate sound...you know the type of sound that people say has a bit of etchiness common to a Bryston mated with a metal tweeter. If adjectives come out like check out the accuracy of these babies. Then guess what? It's not accuracy. You don't go to a live event saying check out the accuracy of that cymbol. Added grain is often noted as accurate because it sounds like added sparkle. Problem is so much of it sounds like this today that people don't have a proper refernece.
.

From what I've read on this board, those who claim that solid state is "accurate" do so without benefit of listening tests but based on technical measurements. There are some exceptions, Skeptic being one. But these people don't strike me as the kind that say "check out this accuracy". They say check out the specs and the specs say it's accurate.

I am absolutely a subjectivist when it comes to the reproduction of music. It doesn't matter one whit to me how something measures but it is important how it reproduces music. This may sound pompous but with all the live music I'm exposed to being a musician who plays about 200 nights a year, I chose tubes to replicate that rather than solid state. I spent a great deal of time auditioning components before purchasing, simply because I have no intention of constantly upgrading so I wanted the best I could afford. The solid state units routinely did not provide the type of sound I would call "accurate". And the added grain of solid state doesn't sound like sparkle to me - it sounds like a coarse texture over the music, rendering it less than lifelike. The best solid state amps I auditioned (Sugden integrated, Klyne preamp) had less of this than the others. Krell, in particular because of the regard audiophiles have for this brand, disappointed me with their integrated althought their separates might be better. I heard the integrated and lost all interest in pursuing the chain. I even listened to some vintage gear. I was just about to buy something/anything because I was getting bored with the process when someone suggested I give tubes a try. I listened to 5 setups and decided on the Manley Stingray. It wasn't the best I heard but it was the best I could afford!

[E-Stat]

There is one VTL Tube amp that is 400 watts

It's called the Siegfried and runs a cool $40k pair. Luke Manley recently brought a pair to Atlanta to an audio club meeting. It was after hearing the even more powerful Wotans that I decided to purchase a pair of MB-450s. Luke told me that he had three independent design groups working on the project: one for the circuit design, one for the PCB board layout/packaging/cooling, and a third working on the computer aspects. Although I was unable to make a direct comparison, Luke says it is more transparent than the Wotans, especially on top.

http://www.vtl.com/pages/Amplifiers/Siegfried/

rw