Today Sugden, tomorrow?

[audio2]

Hi folks, I'm a happy owner of a Sugden A21A and I'm enjoying very much my current audio system configuration.
Anyway, somehow, I can't stop myself from wondering which would be the next step for a qualitative improvment.

I'm quite fond with the Tannoy speakers I have now and size wise they perfectly fit in in the "listening room".

Would replacing the tubes of the Sugden be a coherent solution*? Would that bring audible results?

* is this what is usually called "rolling the tubes"?

Thanks in advance for any help/tip/comment.
Cheers

[JohnMichael]

I am sorry but I did not think the Sugden A21a used tubes.

[frenchmon]

lol! Neither did I.

[audio2]

Oh, oops,
...sorry guys, I guess there's no escape to my miserable mistake...

Well I'm glad somebody is laughing about it and I hope I did not upset the guru's out there... cause I will still accept any advice out of sympathy or compassion (up to you) to help me, I can assure I'll be extremely thankful! :yes nod:

Cheers

[JohnMichael]

Oh, oops,
...sorry guys, I guess there's no escape to my miserable mistake...

Well I'm glad somebody is laughing about it and I hope I did not upset the guru's out there... cause I will still accept any advice out of sympathy or compassion (up to you) to help me, I can assure I'll be extremely thankful! :yes nod:

Cheers

You still have a nice piece of equipment in the Sugden. I was interested in their products but could not find anywhere I could hear them. Can I ask what changes you would like in your system that made you think about a change in parts.

[frenchmon]

Oh, oops,
...sorry guys, I guess there's no escape to my miserable mistake...

Well I'm glad somebody is laughing about it and I hope I did not upset the guru's out there... cause I will still accept any advice out of sympathy or compassion (up to you) to help me, I can assure I'll be extremely thankful! :yes nod:

Cheers

Aw man....no worries.

[Feanor]

Oh, oops,
...sorry guys, I guess there's no escape to my miserable mistake...

Well I'm glad somebody is laughing about it and I hope I did not upset the guru's out there... cause I will still accept any advice out of sympathy or compassion (up to you) to help me, I can assure I'll be extremely thankful! :yes nod:

Cheers

By the way, "tube rolling" does indeed refer to the practice of swapping tubes in a piece of equipment to determine which make of tube sounds best.

[audio2]

You still have a nice piece of equipment in the Sugden. I was interested in their products but could not find anywhere I could hear them. Can I ask what changes you would like in your system that made you think about a change in parts.

Hi, my thought of a possible upgrade comes out of curiosity (and probably an early stage of audio disease too...) rather than a dissatisfaction with my current setup, which I actually enjoy every day.
I was wondering if the combination Tannoy-Sugden-Cambridge Audio it's just as good as it is (as a whole in it's setup) or if there is still a possible/reasonable change (or more) that would improve the performance/synergies between components and enhance my listening experience.
It is here hard for me to describe what I miss at a listener's level. My experience with audio equipment and listening session is still very short, however to me the system lacks of a deeper soundstage.

In first instance, based on my (wrong) assumption that the Sugden had tubes - and by reading here and there about rolling the tubes - I thought of this operation as an alternative upgrade instead of replacing the amp with another.

At the time I bought the speakers (about a year ago) I posted a thread on this forum asking for advice on my quest for an amp to match with the Tannoy.
I have tried a Rotel first and few months later I ended up choosing the Sugden. Some members who replied to my post mentioned to eventually take tube amps in consideration.
Is that maybe the direction/next step to take the system to a higher level?

Thank you, also to the other members that have kindly replied.

[JohnMichael]

A couple of things come to mind regarding soundstaging and depth. I would start with speaker placement. Possibly moving your speakers further away from rear walls or side walls may allow the sound to open up more. Try to make sure they are ahead of equipment stands and that there is nothing directly between the speakers. Having the speakers further apart from one another and some toe-in can also increase depth.

CD's tend to have more of a two dimensional soundstage but some do have depth to them. I would use a cd that you have heard in your system or another where you have heard depth to the soundstage when you tweak speaker position.

Sometimes speaker cables can change soundstaging. I use solid core cables and have found them to be more focused in both width and depth of the soundstage.

How do you have the speakers placed in your room? If you can take a picture we may be able to give better advice.

[RGA]

I love the A21a, I like Tannoy, and I like and own the Cambridge CD 6.

The Sugden A21a is one of the best sanely priced amps around.

The Cambridge Audio uses their disc magic transport mechanism - it's actually a very well built overbuilt actually) CD player for the money. I would buy an external DAC. The transport mechanism is good enough but the DAC is only so-so compared to many very good DAC (Digital to Analog Converters) available today.

That was my plan when I bought the Cambridge Audio in the late 90s but I never got around to adding a DAC.

This is a DAC that I've been hearing great reports on and it's much less expensive than the Audio Notes I was considering while retaining a similar design (zero times oversampling). Mhdt Laboratory I believe it's about $800-$900. I will be on the hunt to audition it myself. Eastern Electric I've read good things about - the design could not be more different but is around the same price.

My new Line Magnetic LM 215 is much better than CD 6 as well. But it's not yet available in North America.

[audio2]

How do you have the speakers placed in your room? If you can take a picture we may be able to give better advice.

I'm going to take some shots and post them as soon as I can. Thanks a lot for now.

RGA: I've been thinking of adding a DAC (there's a thread I posted under digital domain a while ago about it) but I just didn't until now because I don't for how long will the CD6 last. The alternative I thought of is to go for a CD with a proper built-in DAC when time to say goodbye to the CD6 will come.
I'll take a look at the DACs you mention. Thanks.

[RGA]

The thing with a DAC is that they will connect to any CD player (or DVD player or Blu-Ray player) that has digital outputs (most players do - even inexpensive mega changers).

So even if the CD6 fails it's not expensive to buy some sort of CD player for dirt cheap with digital outputs.

Most sub $1000 CD players don't have great transports anyway. The reason for this is that virtually every company making CD players has to outsource the transport mechanism from select few transport makers. So you see the same Philips L1210 transport in the $2k - $3k one box players from Sim Audio, Audio Note, Bryston and many others. They all buy from the same transport manufacturers at given price points.

Only when you get to the Philips Pro2 and up are you really getting a premium transport mechanism. And you're going to pay a stupid sum of money - especially since most makers buying it will heavily change it to suit their needs.

So if you are not going to get one of those beasts then it makes more sense to go with a good DAC. I'd rather a great DAC and less expensive transport.

Certainly a one box player can sound good - I just bought the Line Magnetic LM 215 which is a one box player that is far better than my CD 6 or any of the CA/NAD/Marantz/Arcams/Regas/Bryston/Sim Audios I've ever auditioned. Still the transport is probably in numerous less expensive CD players and an external DAC from Eastern Electric or maybe the Havana DAC I linked above might offer better sound for a touch more money.

I would not wait for the CD 6 to die - I've had mine for about 15 years and it's been flawless. (knock on wood).

[audio2]

Hi, hereby I post some pics of the speaker's setup and a view of the room.
In the second setup I moved the right speaker in the far corner of the room and increased the distance from the back wall for both speakers.
With this setup depth and soundstage has noticeably improved.


PS: thanks RGA for your extra comment about DAC.

[JohnMichael]

Out of the corners and up on stands. Too many obstacles in the way for good imaging. Most likely too much bass reinforcement from the corners. Since they have coax drivers I would raise the speakers so the tweeter would be at ear level.

I am walking my dog and typing with my iPhone so comments are brief. Will write more suggestions once at home.

[JohnMichael]

As I said your speakers should be on stands and both at the same distance from the wall behind the speakers. You need to move the speakers close enough and then further away so you can judge when you have good centerfill and no congestion if they are too close. You want the vocalist to be centered and the musicians spread accross the sound stage. If they sound really bunched up together the speakers are too close and if the vocalist sounds more breathy and ghostly the speakers are too far apart. Once you have the speakers almost in the sweet spot and now is the time to try giving them some toe-in.

Once you have your speakers elevated with room to breathe I think you will be pleased.

[RGA]

John is correct - but if you absolutely can't get them on stands or move them from where they are - a less solution but may improve the sound is to simply tilt the speakers back by putting something under the front bottom of the speakers. This will have the tweeters fire up into the room. It's a free fix which may work.

[audio2]

John is correct - but if you absolutely can't get them on stands or move them from where they are - a less solution but may improve the sound is to simply tilt the speakers back by putting something under the front bottom of the speakers. This will have the tweeters fire up into the room. It's a free fix which may work.

Hi John en RGA, thanks both for the advices.
RGA you've got the point... and actually by having the speakers in this position the imaging (according to John's description) is absolutely better than when I had them closer to each other.
I will lift up the front bottom of the speakers and listen to what happen.
Unless one day I'll have a dedicated listening room, I guess stands are out of question for now; or I'll have to choose smaller speakers next time...
Cheers

[audio2]

As I said your speakers should be on stands and both at the same distance from the wall behind the speakers. You need to move the speakers close enough and then further away so you can judge when you have good centerfill and no congestion if they are too close. You want the vocalist to be centered and the musicians spread accross the sound stage. If they sound really bunched up together the speakers are too close and if the vocalist sounds more breathy and ghostly the speakers are too far apart. Once you have the speakers almost in the sweet spot and now is the time to try giving them some toe-in.

Once you have your speakers elevated with room to breathe I think you will be pleased.

I'm practicing a bit with your tips and have the speakers a bit more lifted up, so now I get what 'imaging' is about.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, I have been learning something new and I enjoy the improvement. I'll keep in mind the suggestion about the stands anyway.
Musical greetings

[JohnMichael]

I'm practicing a bit with your tips and have the speakers a bit more lifted up, so now I get what 'imaging' is about.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, I have been learning something new and I enjoy the improvement. I'll keep in mind the suggestion about the stands anyway.
Musical greetings

I am glad your enjoying some improvements in your system.