Taking the Hi End Plunge?

[blackraven]

I have always thought of my system as teetering on the edge of high end audiophile gear. All my gear is a lot of bang for the buck. Lately I have been thinking about upgrading my amp after talking with Mr. P. In the next day or so I am probably going to take the plunge and buy an X series Pass amp to take my system to the next level and to get the most out of my Magnepan 1.6's and Van Alstine Hybrid tube Preamp and DAC. I was going to buy a Vincent sp-331MKII like Frenchmon's, but I think that will only give me a modest improvement at best compared to my Parasound A21. When I took home the new Van Alstine 600R hybrid tube amp to review I was given a glimpse of what an audiophile amp can do. Mr. P. had bought 400R AVA amp and has since purchased a Pass X-250 which he says is a much better sounding. This has lead me up to this point.

[JohnMichael]

I have to ask what cables are you using? I almost hate to open that can of worms but they are a component also and a step up in cables along with the new amp might really kick up your system.

[blackraven]

I use BJC and audioquest corals. I have also used Tara Labs which are way too bright sounding. I tried some high end Synergistic Research cables that one of our members sent me and they did not sound any better than my BJC's. They had a tad more transparency but less detail than the BJC's.

All I can is that when I auditioned the the Van Alstine 600R it transformed my system. The level of detail and resolution was superb. The transparency and sound stage was insanely good. Even compressed recordings opened up and sounded good. I thought about getting a 600R or 400R but they leaned a little to the bright side in my system and I don't want to have to get into rolling tubes again to bring it over to the slightly warmer presentation that I prefer. The Vincent amp can do that for me but after reading reviews and talking with Mr P, I think that the Pass amp may be the way to go.

[JohnMichael]

I have recently switched to Transparent Cables that Mr. P had suggested. They kick the performance up several notches. I went from a diehard solid core fan to a Transparent Cable fan.

[Feanor]

Take the plunge if you can do so without depriving your family or creating discord, or getting into debt. These qualifications are easy to express, harder to judge.

For one thing, the Pass Lab amps are the only ones I would trust to deliver the best, least compromised sound regardless of cost -- not that they're cheap. For another, the Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's have proven to me that they can exploit the best electronics you can attach to them.

Right now I'm looking at low cost, (new or used), amplifiers and trying to get a feel for which will deliver for me the most agreeable set of compromises. This is a weary task since anything I can afford has this, that, or multiple compromises.

But beware that there is not "end of the trail" in audio. If you find an amp that will satisfy you for a few years, then you will feel the urge to find the idea speaker or whatever else in the reproduction chain.

[blackraven]

I am with you Feanor, the 1.6's will sound as good as your gear. I found that out with the Van Alstine 600R, I was astounded at how good Maggies sounded with the 600R. As for the future, I could see myself upgrading to a fully tube preamp and a more up to date DAC perhaps. As for speakers, I would love to find a nice used pair of 3.6's but I would consider a pair of PSB Synchrony's if I down size my house in 7-10 years.

Any one want a good deal on a used Parasound A21?

[frenchmon]

Raven. I too like the Pass Labs a lot, but to a guy who loves tubes and know what a tube brings to the table you will notice it. But again, you had the Parasound which is not to far off from what the Pass amps do. Remember Pass and Curl shared designs years ago... And please don't sell your self short with the Vincent. I too have heard your amps a few years ago at my dealers house before I purchased my Vincent tube preamp. I don't ever remember the Parasound sounding like what I have now. Its totally differnet in what they bring to the table. also to my ears the AVA was more solid state sounding with lots of air. The Vincent is different. This thing is way more bang for your buck. It performs way more than what the price dictates. And I don't remember the AVA creating a venue like the Vincent. the Vincent gives you the real tube presence and the slam you need with SS. It's got real texture and of course the mids on a tube rig and solid state rig are different...at least to my ears. And with my Vincent preamp, I've found great synergy with a NOS 12au7 tube, with a pair of TEN 5751's....I am in audio bliss right now. Good luck with the Pass...it too is a great amp, and I have it on good faith they match up really well with your Maggies.

But do keep in mind, you already have the AVA preamp. I think it will server you well to get a AVA amp instead of the Pass Labs. Not because the Pass Labs is bad, but because the special synergy that will come from like minded designs from the same designer is always best. There is a certain synergy that comes from the same amp/preamp when you get to a certain level. Peabody has a Pass Labs preamp and amp.....I have a Vincent preamp and amp. there is a certain synergy between the same amp/preamp that wont be accomplished if you have different matched gear at this level. Will it still perform...yes, but not at the level the designers intended. They have designed each piece with their own gear in mind and not some one elses. Once I got the Vincent amp to go with my Vincent preamp, I was made a believer. There is a guy over at Audiokarma who just purchased the matching piece to his Marantz Reference and is also experiencing the same thing, that special synergy that is so hard to come by. So if I where you, seeing you have the AVA preamp and DAC, you should go for the matching amp as well.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, I have not bought the Pass yet, I have to work out the details and I am still negotiating. I am looking at an X-250 but may buy an X-150. I was going to pull the trigger on the Vincent until I found the Pass amps. I am taking a chance because I like the tube sound. And I agree with your assessment of the 400R amp. It needed some warmer sounding tubes. But I have to think that a Pass amp that sold for $5000 new will take my system to another level. Every thing that I have read about the older X series amps speak of its great sense of air, transparency and detail. They are supposed to be very smooth with great control. Besides, if I don't like the sound, I am sure that I could turn around and sell it fairly easily.

[frenchmon]

Kindly tell me what the reviews said that swayed you toward the Pass? the Pass is a great amp...but thats not to say the Vincent isn't. In all honesty, I think the textures from the individual notes will be richer...especially in the midrange with the Vincent. Peabodys Pass is 250 wpc and the firest 15 class A. The Vincent is 150 wpc with the first 10 class A. I think the Pass has a better control over lower bass notes, but I think the tubes give the better texture especially with midrange presence. Both amps are beast with the Pass Labs being more of a beast! But neither Peabody or I will every use all the watts the amps offer...and I really dont think I have ever been out of Class A yet. 10 Watts is awful loud.

[frenchmon]

Raven...the only negative thing I read about the Vincent SP-331 MK was when the Absolute sound did a review on the amp. They gave it a glowing review and even an award, but said when driven to its volume peak, it kinda strained . But again, they where driving....yes you guessed it, some power hungry Maggies! So if that's your reason for not going with the Vincent I understand...but then again, Maggies can make a lot of amps crap out. But who drives an amp like that in their homes any way?

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, my Parasound is class A for the first 8-10 watts. The X250 is 20watts in class A and peaks even higher from what I have read. And the A21 actually specs out much better than the Pass amps and has higher current at 60 amps but specs aren't every thing. As for the tube sound, my hybrid preamp and hybrid dac provide that. I am looking for more detail and transparency.

Here are some reviews of the Pass

Pass Laboratories Supersymmetry™ Balanced Single-Ended Class-A X250 Stereo Amplifier by A. Colin Flood

Product Review

http://www.stereotimes.com/amp051403.shtml

[frenchmon]

Oh I know what the Pass can do and is like....Its a great amp. So you say the A21 is not transparent and not detailed?

[blackraven]

I am not saying that the A21 is not transparent and detailed. But after having a 600R amp in home for 3 days of fun, I was left wanting more. The A21 is a great amp, fast paced, detailed with deep, well controlled bass with a nice midrange and treble. There is a little grain in the upper treble. The 600R just showed me how much better my system can sound. I am not even sure if I am going to sell the A21 after I get the Pass. I would like to use it with my MMMG'S and my Grant Fidelity.

I would probably love the Vincent amp and be perfectly happy with it, but to be able to buy a Pass X-250 for $2600 is too good to pass up (no pun intended). The amp listed for $6000 in 2002. If I don't like it I could sell it and give the Vincent a go.

[frenchmon]

Oh I don't blame you there man....that's a great deal! I'm sure with whatever direction you go, you will enjoy the music. Congrats man on the new amp!

[blackraven]

My wife gave me the go ahead to buy the amp. I have to pay the shipping, about $100 and the guy will split the Pay Pal fees with me. It will ship out on 9/26. You guys are all invited over for beer, margarita's and good music!

[Hyfi]

Raven, Congrats on the killer amp. Wish I could get there to hear it all.

[frenchmon]

IF I could come, I'd like sweet tea.....no booze for me.....last one was 1989. Congrats!

[Jack in Wilmington]

IF I could come, I'd like sweet tea.....no booze for me.....last one was 1989. Congrats!

I know what you're saying Frenchie. I had my last cigarette in 1988. Addicted to the music now.

[blackraven]

Sweet Tea and steaks on the grill it is!

More good news on the amp. I called Pass Labs and gave them the serial number of the amp. It was built in 2011 and had a full check up. It is in excellent condition. I had a nice chat with them. I told them that I was considering buying the cheaper X-150. They said that the X250 is another animal and much better than the 150 in terms of sound quality. It looks like I made the right decision.

[frenchmon]

Yeap....and all the junk they got out now.....I'ma glad I cant drink. All that gin and vodka flavored with different flavors....no sir, they can keep that crap.

[frenchmon]

Sweet Tea and steaks on the grill it is!

More good news on the amp. I called Pass Labs and gave them the serial number of the amp. It was built in 2011 and had a full check up. It is in excellent condition. I had a nice chat with them. I told them that I was considering buying the cheaper X-150. They said that the X250 is another animal and much better than the 150 in terms of sound quality. It looks like I made the right decision.

Great! On another note....You should get a good after marker Power Cord. I purchased a very good one and Mr. Peabody heard it as well and said it was good. Its the Triode Labs Wire. I purchased the "10 Plus" American gauge. and will be
purchasing the "7" gauge in a while. Its clearly better than any Power cable I have ever heard. Audiophile Cables - High End Power Cords - The Seven Plus

[blackraven]

I have an after market power cord but I may buy another. I have a very nice Audio Quest power cord that came with my Music Hall Cd player from HCM Audio. I may buy another cord and some Analysis plus IC's. Thanks for the link on the power cords. Although after reading this excerpt from the X-250 manual I am not going to spend a ton on cables-

"Interconnects and Speaker Cables
We have a general recommendation about interconnects, which is that they should cost less
than the amplifier. We have tried a lot of products and most of them work well, but as a
practical matter we cannot make blanket recommendations.
The amplifier is not sensitive to source interconnects. It is also not sensitive to radio frequency
pickup, which allows some flexibility in choosing source interconnects without shields.
We prefer speaker cables that are thick and short. Silver and copper are the preferred metals.
If you find any cable made of gold, please send me a couple hundred feet.
Fortunately the amplifier is not sensitive to the capacitive/inductive character of some of the
specialty speaker cables, so feel free to experiment.
We have found that about 90 per cent of bad sounding cables are really bad connections, and
we recommend that special attention be paid to cleanliness of contact surfaces and tight fit.
Speaker cables should be firmly tightened down at the speaker output terminals, but do not
use a wrench. They will not withstand 100 foot-lbs of torque. Hand tightening without
excessive force is plenty."

The rest of the manual is written in this manner, with an occasionally funny reference.

[Feanor]

I have an after market power cord but I may buy another. I have a very nice Audio Quest power cord that came with my Music Hall Cd player from HCM Audio. I may buy another cord and some Analysis plus IC's. Thanks for the link on the power cords. Although after reading this excerpt from the X-250 manual I am not going to spend a ton on cables-

"Interconnects and Speaker Cables
We have a general recommendation about interconnects, which is that they should cost less
than the amplifier. We have tried a lot of products and most of them work well, but as a
practical matter we cannot make blanket recommendations.
The amplifier is not sensitive to source interconnects. It is also not sensitive to radio frequency
pickup, which allows some flexibility in choosing source interconnects without shields.
We prefer speaker cables that are thick and short. Silver and copper are the preferred metals.
If you find any cable made of gold, please send me a couple hundred feet.
Fortunately the amplifier is not sensitive to the capacitive/inductive character of some of the
specialty speaker cables, so feel free to experiment.
We have found that about 90 per cent of bad sounding cables are really bad connections, and
we recommend that special attention be paid to cleanliness of contact surfaces and tight fit.
Speaker cables should be firmly tightened down at the speaker output terminals, but do not
use a wrench. They will not withstand 100 foot-lbs of torque. Hand tightening without
excessive force is plenty."

The rest of the manual is written in this manner, with an occasionally funny reference.

Nelson Pass is typically quite troll.

[blackraven]

If any one else is looking to buy a Pass Labs X-250, let me know. The other guy I have been dealing with, lowered his price on the amp to $2550 plus shipping to compete with the amp I intend to buy.

[Feanor]

If any one else is looking to buy a Pass Labs X-250, let me know. The other guy I have been dealing with, lowered his price on the amp to $2550 plus shipping to compete with the amp I intend to buy.

Damn! That's actually a very good price -- wish I could do it, but unfortunately not.