Sophia Electric Baby Amp

[Ajani]

if the best amps are 10 watts and under sets (and let's assume for the discussion this is true)

Why should we assume that is true? I accept the logic that if the 1st watt sounds bad then who cares what watt number 500 sounds like, but that doesn't mean that by default the lowest powered amps (generally SETs) must sound the best. Take an interesting review by Constantine Soo of the Audio Note AN-E/D back in 2001:

AUDIO NOTE AN-E/D LOUDSPEAKERS Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo

He compares the sound of the AN-E with both Audio Note's Quest Western Electric 300B Monoblocks (9 Watt SET) & Monarchy Audio SM-70 monoblocks (70 Watt Class A SS). If not for the fact that the Monarchy eventually blew the AN-E tweeter, frankly it seems as if he might well have preferred the sound of them to the Quest. He certainly spent a large part of that review raving about the sound of the SM70 with the AN-E.

[RGA]

Why should we assume that is true? I accept the logic that if the 1st watt sounds bad then who cares what watt number 500 sounds like, but that doesn't mean that by default the lowest powered amps (generally SETs) must sound the best. Take an interesting review by Constantine Soo of the Audio Note AN-E/D back in 2001:

AUDIO NOTE AN-E/D LOUDSPEAKERS Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo

He compares the sound of the AN-E with both Audio Note's Quest Western Electric 300B Monoblocks (9 Watt SET) & Monarchy Audio SM-70 monoblocks (70 Watt Class A SS). If not for the fact that the Monarchy eventually blew the AN-E tweeter, frankly it seems as if he might well have preferred the sound of them to the Quest. He certainly spent a large part of that review raving about the sound of the SM70 with the AN-E.

Constanine's first line "The Monarchy Audio SM-70 monoblocks presented an intriguing alternative and were nearly victorious over the Quest monoblocks


Nearly means they weren't. Constantine was new to AN back then and was still trying to decide whether he should put the speakers in the corners.

The AN E/D is far more favorable to SS - which is why if anyone owns a SS amp and is going to buy an AN speaker I always say get the model with the copper wires.

Constanine also noted less success with a bunch of other amplifiers both SS and tube. The 300B tube amps I already noted earlier are often deemed to be on the mushy side of the spectrum - they have a lusher sound and Soo uses the words philisophical - I might use the word polite. They typically have a sonic flavour and I personally would not buy an Audio Note 300B amp. Bob Neil of Amherst and I both agree that we would own an OTO (EL84) and probably the next jump would be to the Jinro 211 based much more powerful sounding amplifier. Or I would buy the AN Kit in the 2a3 version.

One of the main reasons they came out with the HE version of the speaker was to help out their 8-9 Watt 300b amps like the Quest effectively doubling their amp's headroom so that when playing Metallica at high levels they would not run into these problems with the sound mellowing out. So you either buy the HE speaker or the higher watt SET. Remember these speakers are not technically considered HE. They're very close but they're no K-Horns. Constanine directly compared the AN E to the K-horn and he and I would agree that the AN E can't match the dynamic ease of those speakers.

I am not saying SS can;t sound good it can sound excellent - I am sitting here with very nice SS amplifier under $2k and it sounds quite excellent. But at the end of the day - the Quest will win out over most SS amps despite their weaknesses at maximum volume levels and dynamic headroom and staging etc. The tonality and microdynamics and getting inside the notes and sounding "right" trump the pyrotechnics.

I am greedy - I'd like both which is why despite what I have heard from the Meishue and Kit One I want those traits combined with grip power and dynamics - ideally a Gaku-on connected to an M9 or M10 - but I need a big lottery win - not just any lottery win.

[Ajani]

Constanine's first line "The Monarchy Audio SM-70 monoblocks presented an intriguing alternative and were nearly victorious over the Quest monoblocks


Nearly means they weren't. Constantine was new to AN back then and was still trying to decide whether he should put the speakers in the corners.

I didn't say he preferred the sound of the Monarchys. I said If not for the fact that the Monarchy eventually blew the AN-E tweeter, frankly it seems as if he might well have preferred the sound of them to the Quest.

The point being that while the Quest won out overall, I'm not convinced from that article that it was solely because he preferred the sound of the Quest. He really praised the Monarchy very heavily. So it's quite possible that other persons might prefer the sound of the Monarchy to the Quest.

My point is simply that we cannot assume that by default the best sounding amps are SET.

I personally would not buy an Audio Note 300B amp. Bob Neil of Amherst and I both agree that we would own an OTO (EL84) and probably the next jump would be to the Jinro 211 based much more powerful sounding amplifier. Or I would buy the AN Kit in the 2a3 version.

Isn't the OTO a push pull? So you prefer a push-pull over a SET?

I am not saying SS can;t sound good it can sound excellent - I am sitting here with very nice SS amplifier under $2k and it sounds quite excellent. But at the end of the day - the Quest will win out over most SS amps despite their weaknesses at maximum volume levels and dynamic headroom and staging etc. The tonality and microdynamics and getting inside the notes and sounding "right" trump the pyrotechnics.

All this ties back to my orignal point:

I accept the logic that if the 1st watt sounds bad then who cares what watt number 500 sounds like, but that doesn't mean that by default the lowest powered amps (generally SETs) must sound the best

[RGA]

I didn't say he preferred the sound of the Monarchys. I said If not for the fact that the Monarchy eventually blew the AN-E tweeter, frankly it seems as if he might well have preferred the sound of them to the Quest.

The point being that while the Quest won out overall, I'm not convinced from that article that it was solely because he preferred the sound of the Quest. He really praised the Monarchy very heavily. So it's quite possible that other persons might prefer the sound of the Monarchy to the Quest.

My point is simply that we cannot assume that by default the best sounding amps are SET.



Isn't the OTO a push pull? So you prefer a push-pull over a SET?



All this ties back to my orignal point:

I accept the logic that if the 1st watt sounds bad then who cares what watt number 500 sounds like, but that doesn't mean that by default the lowest powered amps (generally SETs) must sound the best

I'm not saying SET wins by default - However I am saying that the best systems I and many others have ever heard are based around SET amps - and that isn't just a fluke. Do I think some SS amps can beat some tubes and SET - sure. But even in the SS realm I think the amp to beat and has been the amp to beat for 25 years at least is the Sugden A21a (at least within $2k of it's list price). It's a SET. Single Ended Topology, no feedback, pure class A.

The OTO comes in two versions a Push Pull version and a Single Ended Pentode version which is what my amp is. But it does use a little feedback. Audio Note classifies it as Level 2 - Level 3 s where SET begins. (though Triode not Topology).

[RGA]

Feanor - I found the AN E schematics - You could probably contact SEAS to get the closest driver to the one AN uses. Ditto for Tonnegan - Parts Express's owner used to work for Audio Note - so they may be able to direct you to the specific model numbers.

But I can't imagine that SEAS has too many 8 inch hemp woofers with foam surrounds.

There are also schematics for many of the integrated amps and preamps - like the Ongaku and M8 preamp and various others.

[Ajani]

I'm not saying SET wins by default - However I am saying that the best systems I and many others have ever heard are based around SET amps - and that isn't just a fluke.

Fair enough. Clearly there is something special about the sound that appeals to a number of audiophiles.

As I won't be able to afford "the best systems" anytime soon (if ever), if I want to try out a SET amp I have to look at the more affordably priced ones (like what Poultrygeist uses) such as the Decware and Bottlehead.

Do I think some SS amps can beat some tubes and SET - sure. But even in the SS realm I think the amp to beat and has been the amp to beat for 25 years at least is the Sugden A21a (at least within $2k of it's list price). It's a SET. Single Ended Topology, no feedback, pure class A.

There are a couple of well regarded alternatives that I would love to compare to the Sugden:

Monarchy SM70Pro (25 Watt Class A as a stereo amp) and just under $1K, 70 Watts and double the price if used as monoblocks. Monrachy SE100 (100 Watt Class A monobolcks) around $2.5K. First Watt (Nelson Pass) has a number of 25 Watt and under class A amps around the $2K mark. Musical Fidelity had a 32 watt Class A integrated - the A1 (2009 model) around $2K as well.

[RGA]

Fair enough. Clearly there is something special about the sound that appeals to a number of audiophiles.

As I won't be able to afford "the best systems" anytime soon (if ever), if I want to try out a SET amp I have to look at the more affordably priced ones (like what Poultrygeist uses) such as the Decware and Bottlehead.




There are a couple of well regarded alternatives that I would love to compare to the Sugden:

Monarchy SM70Pro (25 Watt Class A as a stereo amp) and just under $1K, 70 Watts and double the price if used as monoblocks. Monrachy SE100 (100 Watt Class A monobolcks) around $2.5K. First Watt (Nelson Pass) has a number of 25 Watt and under class A amps around the $2K mark. Musical Fidelity had a 32 watt Class A integrated - the A1 (2009 model) around $2K as well.

Yes there may be others - Pass makes a good one - so does Heed Audio - the other factor is system synergy - I prefer the system approach to the component approach for this very reason.

This is why these are generalities. Over the years it has been the general case IME that the following is true

Class A, No feedback or low feedback, Single Ended either tube or SS sounds the best. Various permutations of these approaches tend to sound better. So I would buy a Pass/Sugden amp over a Bryston or MF in a second.

But then you have Naim - which is pure class B and people love them - Not my cup of tea but you can hear why people would like them.