solid state vs. tubes. Pros and Cons

[Resident Loser]

Evidently, that is where we differ. The active pursuit of hearing subtle differences (if one is so inclined) requires training, experience, and exercising lots of neurons. When I was much younger, I confess that I did not hear quite a few things that my older and more experienced (in music) reviewer friends were consistently observing.


Right, few corners to set up the weight balance.


In the parlor games sense that David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear.


Bad example. So, how many labels release mono recordings today? The answer is clearly economics - which also accounts for the success with MP3s.

rw

...some parallel lines, but they aren't quite parallel to each other...you can build a vehicle that will be use-specific...as I recall, midget cars and some of their open-wheel, bigger brethren were built with body offsets and canted axles/chassis to take advantage of the oval tracks' banking...Mechanical lockers or the homebrew variant of "Lincoln lockers" can eliminate differential action for those motorsports that require it...long-travel suspensions are part and parcel for vehicles competing in Baja-type events...each option is actively chosen relative to the ends anticipated...different skill sets are required in the choice of parts, the fabrication of the vehicle and ultimately the use of said vehicle...That to me is active participation...you are goverend by the laws of physics and simple, quantifiable mechanical constraints...You can shave off some weight using modern metalurgy and alloys, adjust C of G, do almost anything within the governing body's guidelines, but you don't take a AA fuel dragster to Le Mans...There are objective parameters involved...You wouldn't de-tune an engine to make it "sound cool", which would be are a purely subjective, and most likely foolhardy, thing to do...

Very little, beyond specs, is particularly objective in nature relevant to this hobby...Starting with speakers, personal preference holds sway...At the other end, the software is mostly contrived; there is little or no sonic reality contained in the bits and bites or the groove walls, it's all approximation, close but no cigar...And even if one were to opt for a few least-contaminated examples of the recordists' art, few, if any, have the electronics, transducers or listening environment that existed and aided in the final sessions. We take a best guess approach.

Re: Parlor games...well, I think we all know such buffoonery to be what it is, impossible...Carver's demonstration was based on objective measurements and probably had something to do with subjectve perceptions, however fooling the ear is a distinct possibility...I'd venture a guess that if similar sonic manipulation supported a golden-eared precept, the flags would wave and the crowd (such as it is ) would roar it's approval.

Mono recordings? I'd take a guess nearly every record company sells mono stuff...any one who sells CDs of pre-stereo sessions does so...and there are certainly specialty labels such as Smithsonian Folkways who rely heavily on pre-stereo field recordings...Too small a niche-market you say...Well, that's what I would say about tubed electronics...

jimHJJ(...MP3s?...really bad example...)

[theaudiohobby]

Actually Buick uses a very sophisticated electronically controlled 4 speed auto that has nearly inperceptable shifts. In tech terms, these are wonderful examples of modern CAD produced engineering.

Point taken and correction accepted, however that said full automatic gear shifting in F1 is banned for performance reasons.

[theaudiohobby]

Why do you suppose there are zero high performance cars available today using CVTs?

rw

I have no answer for that question, however this blog from wikipedia makes it quite clear that it is not because of performance, specifically it says

F500 uses an advanced Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), similar to that used in F1 racing snowmobiles.
These advanced belt driven automatic transmissions are tuned to optimize the power curve of a two stroke engine, constantly keeping the engine at its peak power. One of the key benefits of the CVT is that it is a stepless transmission. This allows all of the engine's power to be transmitted to the drive wheels at all times

Therefore, there is no reason to suppose that the transmission cannot be adapted for F1 if they were not banned.

[hermanv]

Don't confuse marketing and performance limits. I own and have owned several performance cars. For me and most enthusiasts, a manual stick shift is just more fun. I can not drive my performance cars at anywhere near their performance limits without a jail sentence so that last increment of speed isn't all that relevant.

I think the analogy of car transmissons vs. amplifier topologies is a poor choice made worse by including F1 racing, an excercise in ultimate extremism. I'm told to field a car today runs in the hundreds of millions, even cables don't cost that much although there are a couple of 2 Watts amps that come close

[theaudiohobby]

...
I think the analogy of car transmissons vs. amplifier topologies is a poor choice made worse by including F1 racing, an excercise in ultimate extremism...:

Point taken, I tender my apology for muddying the waters...

[theaudiohobby]

Where's the proof of all of this? You can't know accuracy without the reference -- you got nothing on this.

Your request for proof is equivalent to asking for proof that a well-calibrated simple thermometer is a more reliable reference for taking body temperate than an experienced nurse or doctor. Its obviousness is self-evident.

[E-Stat]

I have no answer for that question...

The answer speaks silently for itself.

Therefore, there is no reason to suppose that the transmission cannot be adapted for F1 if they were not banned...
These advanced belt driven automatic transmissions are tuned to optimize the power curve of a two stroke engine...

You are ignoring a significant qualifier: the power curve of a two stroke engine.

Next question: How many automobiles employ two stroke motors?
Answer: Same as my previous question.

rw

[theaudiohobby]

The answer speaks silently for itself.


You are ignoring a significant qualifier: the power curve of a two stroke engine.

Next question: How many automobiles employ two stroke motors?
Answer: Same as my previous question.

rw

Does a four stroke engine have posssess a peak power curve' as well and then tell me why F1 banned CVTs.

[E-Stat]

Does a four stroke engine have a power curve' as well and then tell me why F1 banned CVTs.

The answer to the first question is obviously yes, but is very different in nature.

The answer to the second question can be found in one of your original links.

"For safety reasons all cars must have a means of disengaging the clutch that is operable from outside the cockpit by marshals."

rw

[theaudiohobby]

The answer to the first question is obviously yes, but is very different in nature.

And in response to that, Williams did build a prototype CVT F1 and the times ahem were very good.

The answer to the second question can be found in one of your original links.

"For safety reasons all cars must have a means of disengaging the clutch that is operable from outside the cockpit by marshals."

rw

Firstly, this condition has absolutely nothing to do with performance and secondly there is no technical reason why a CVT cannot be disengaged from outside the car.

Here is an interview by Max Moseley, and he said

There’s a little bit of controversy about twin clutch gearboxes. Cars these days have seven forward gears, and obviously the more forward gears you are allowed, the narrower the torque band for the engine can be and therefore the greater the power –you can have a really peaky engine – particularly now it’s all done by computer. You couldn’t have a seven speed box if you had to do it manually. But they can’t have more than seven speeds so if you then narrow this right down, what you really need is CVT. Now that’s illegal, but maybe if you have seven gears… with these twin plates clutches, what happens is that one set of gears is engaged while the other one is driving the car, so the gearchange becomes almost instant.

He makes the original point "optimize the power curve of an engine ...constantly keeping the engine at its peak power. And I repeat again, it has been already done before over 10 years ago!

Now for something rather very germane to these discussions.

Nissan is being careful not to over emphasize the CVT in their marketing of the Murano even though they have spent lots of money in the development of the technology over a couple decades, have used it for years in "foreign" markets, and some racing. I believe the reluctance is not due to the engineering I believe it's due to the ?????? Market". Our reluctance to embrace new ideas, especially given the Subaru experience. ,We tend to not let the facts get in the way, urban legends are much more important after all.

Now that is a sad indictment, and it effectively summarizes your contributions in this thread.

[E-Stat]

He makes the original point "optimize the power curve of an engine ...constantly keeping the engine at its peak power. And I repeat again, it has been already done before over 10 years ago!

I give up. Enter a corner at 10/10s in your Honda Insight or lawnmower with trailing throttle and see what happens as the weight shifts forward overloading the fronts. Note further comments:

"If they are just used as a means of speeding up the gearchange, it is unobjectionable. It’s only if it is used to expand the range of the gearbox."

What might be gained on the straights would be negated in the corners.

Now that is a sad indictment, and it effectively summarizes your contributions in this thread.

I guess ALL of the world's performance car engineers are inept since they do not agree with your wisdom.

rw

[theaudiohobby]

I give up. Enter a corner at 10/10s in your Honda Insight or lawnmower with trailing throttle and see what happens as the weight shifts forward overloading the fronts. Note further comments:

Surely you can read, a CVT F1 car was developed! a CVT system was attached to a production formula one engine and successfully trialed at Silverstone. Also, my posts it clearly states that Nissan has successfully used in CVTs in racing.

"If they are just used as a means of speeding up the gearchange, it is unobjectionable. It’s only if it is used to expand the range of the gearbox."

What might be gained on the straights would be negated in the corners.

Surely you are kidding, the guy is discussing the benefits of a CVT to transmission systems, i.e. the gearbox, one of the advantages of a CVT is that it expands the range of the gearbox. How can a transmission system that maintains peak power at all times negate gains in the corners!

I guess ALL of the world's performance car engineers are inept since they do not agree with your wisdom.

rw

Amazing comments! The world's performance engineers have already successfully employed CVTs in racing! It written right there in black and white yet you walked past it! Your willingness to ignore facts and stick to discredited myths is incredible and it weakens your credibility as a useful contributor.

[Feanor]

I give up. Enter a corner at 10/10s in your Honda Insight or lawnmower
...rw

Will you guys give it up? SS vs. values is wearisome enough, but cars -- and now lawnmowers? Oh, pull-eez.

[musicoverall]

Will you guys give it up? SS vs. values is wearisome enough, but cars -- and now lawnmowers? Oh, pull-eez.

My speakers cost more than my car which cost more than my lawnmower. This means I can't make hairpin turns and my lawn never gets mowed because I'm too busy listening to music.

[JoeE SP9]

My speakers cost more than my car which cost more than my lawnmower. This means I can't make hairpin turns and my lawn never gets mowed because I'm too busy listening to music.

My kind of guy!

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

MikE (walsdor) had gone in on some custom-built tubes, an experience (I dare say) he won't be trying again any time soon.

Thanks for reminding me Jim! Yes, the EML custom experiment was unfortunate but we knew there was a degree of risk going in. This was their only run of this tube and there were only 18 pairs made. This was not something they ever wanted to market, instead they were satisfying a request from an end-user to have them do a custom run. They were concerned about the "globe envelope" from the beginning, that it may not travel well due to the construction vs the production "ST" tubes. And they were right, 2 or 3 pairs didn't survive. One of which were mine that made the over seas trip but not the continential trip to Columbus. No, I wouldn't do it again, primarally because of the hassle I received from the USPS [even if I did receive my refund eventually]. I'm still a huge EML supporter. I think they make a great product. It's expensive but you know where your monies spent when you press play - the upside in performance and enjoyment is on par with a component upgrade. And I feel that I've yet to hear a "bad 45 tube", but the EML 45's are just that much better.

MikE [not obsolete, just unique]

[theaudiohobby]

I saw this post RGA, I laughed out loud..put this stuff into perspective...

Have fun...

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/am...ges/98815.html

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Will you guys give it up? SS vs. values is wearisome enough, but cars -- and now lawnmowers? Oh, pull-eez.

Word. This thread started off well, but the off topic curve thrown here is a little absurd. Amps to cars, what a stretch!

[Resident Loser]

Word. This thread started off well, but the off topic curve thrown here is a little absurd. Amps to cars, what a stretch!

...guess that happens when you shoehorn Bridgestone Potenza's onto your Yugo and think it's oliversudden a Ferrari...

jimHJJ(...sorry, couldn't resist...)

[E-Stat]

Word. This thread started off well, but the off topic curve thrown here is a little absurd. Amps to cars, what a stretch!

I guess you're not an automobile enthusiast. The metrics for cars are similarly insufficient to characterize it's complete performance envelope either.

rw

[Resident Loser]

I guess you're not an automobile enthusiast. The metrics for cars are similarly insufficient to characterize it's complete performance envelope either.

rw

Like what? Upgrade your air filter and exhaust system...do a before/after dyno...is there a diff in rear wheel HP? Maybe a hotter cam...after-market ignition...Power chip...port'n'polish...bore and stroke it...new tires and a change of gear ratios...nitrous...Suspension tweaks affecting the C of G...How do objective results in any way correspond to the subjective hoo-haa of audio tweakdom?

Most auto aftermarket performance-parts suppliers publish specs and test results in their ads...everything from dyno tests to seat-of-the pants road tests...rarely (if ever) do you read the equivalent of "mid-range bloom" and other such malarkey...

Most wrenchers work hard to pay for and install their tweaks...with the exception of power-chips, most cars don't have the convenient equivalent of an IEC connector...

jimHJJ(...and most aren't that gullible as a result...)

[E-Stat]

Like what? Upgrade your air filter and exhaust system...do a before/after dyno...is there a diff in rear wheel HP? Maybe a hotter cam...after-market ignition...Power chip...port'n'polish...bore and stroke it...new tires and a change of gear ratios...nitrous...Suspension tweaks affecting the C of G...How do objective results in any way correspond to the subjective hoo-haa of audio tweakdom?

Huh? I think you completely missed my points. Here's what I said:

The metrics for cars are similarly insufficient to characterize it's complete performance envelope either.

Ok, so do 0-60 or 0-anything times, lateral G cornering (on a fixed 200 foot circle) give you any notion of how the car actually performs in the real world? No. Do THD and frequency response curves tell you how the component actually performs in the real world. Similarly, the answer is no.

Save your tweak rant for another day.

rw

[Resident Loser]

Huh? I think you completely missed my points. Here's what I said:

The metrics for cars are similarly insufficient to characterize it's complete performance envelope either.

Ok, so do 0-60 or 0-anything times, lateral G cornering (on a fixed 200 foot circle) give you any notion of how the car actually performs in the real world? No. Do THD and frequency response curves tell you how the component actually performs in the real world. Similarly, the answer is no.

Save your tweak rant for another day.

rw

...it's not a simple exercise in multiplication...I'm fairly certain the math governing the intereplay of the various physical foreces involved is quite complex...however computer modeling can most likely reveal better than a hint of the results...the only real-world variable in the equation would be the driver's ablities...

And contrary to your statement, those audio numbers (coupled with square-wave response, etc.) can be quite indicative of a component's performance...the only real-world variable in the equation would be the listener's ears...

jimHJJ(...today is just as good as any other day...)

[E-Stat]

...it's not a simple exercise in multiplication...I'm fairly certain the math governing the intereplay of the various physical foreces involved is quite complex...however computer modeling can most likely reveal better than a hint of the results...the only real-world variable in the equation would be the driver's ablities...

Good speculation, but that's not what happens in the real world of racing. As with audio, they begin with the numbers - that only take you so far - then the driver's feedback (as does a critical listener) fills in the gap(s).

And contrary to your statement, those audio numbers (coupled with square-wave response, etc.) can be quite indicative of a component's performance.

Fine. You take the Crown IC-150 preamp with 0.001% distortion and I'll gladly take anything else.

rw

[theaudiohobby]

...it's not a simple exercise in multiplication...I'm fairly certain the math governing the intereplay of the various physical foreces involved is quite complex...however computer modeling can most likely reveal better than a hint of the results...the only real-world variable in the equation would be the driver's ablities...

And contrary to your statement, those audio numbers (coupled with square-wave response, etc.) can be quite indicative of a component's performance...the only real-world variable in the equation would be the listener's ears...

jimHJJ(...today is just as good as any other day...)

Precisely the point.. the only variables are the driver's abilities and the listener's ears, all other variables can be precisely modelled