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  1. #1
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    Preamps.....oh preamps. What to do?

    So...been running my 500watt (250rms) 4ohm cerwin vega xls 215's with my Sansui 8700db. [Peabody, you know about this].

    Had problems with protection circuit kicking in with heavy bass lines. Defeated some of the problem by turning off the boomy loudness feature on the amp. Not that much fun to listen to though this way.

    Need more power. Most cost efficient way i have found to do this is with some professional audio gear. Namely, a QSC power amp.....the RMX series. The 1450 model pushes 450wpc into 4 ohms. Costs around $600. Think this would drive the speakers beautifully and not at ear splitting volumes. Just clean, uncolored power with plenty reserve.

    Now facing the issue of what preamp to use that has volume control. Have looked at some new ones....kind of pricey. Dont need one with phono necessarily as I have a project tube box se II.

    I saw a yamaha c-4 on ebay and many other "vintage" or older preamps. All seem to be priced reasonably at $100-300- unless its a tube preamp. Maybe not in vogue, but just wondering about the quality of these older preamps versus newer ones.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I know from experience that QSC amps are very good for the pro sound market and are reliable as all get out but they accept xlr and 1/4 " inputs which most preamps in your price range do not have unless you happened to stumble onto a great deal on a used one. Now my suggestion would be to stay with a home audio amp like a Adcom gfa5800 which put out 400 watts into 4ohms and could run those vega's all day long with know problem, I know because I used to sell Adcom and had a customer who had 2 pairs of dx-9 vega's he wanted to run and his receiver just would not do it to his needs. I sold him a 5800 and installed it for him with a adcom preamp and they were as loud and dynamic as you would ever wanted in a house environment. The Adcom 5800 has the rca inputs that are needed about any home audio preamp uses and you can find a 5800 used in perfect shape for less than the QSC and then find a good deal on a preamp within your budget, the pre I hooked up to his system was a Adcom 565 which is a excellent unit for what you can get them for now used and it is within your budget.

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  3. #3
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    The Yammy C4 and Kenwood Basic C1 or C2 are all excellent pres. For the price you will find them at, they reprsent a great value. I would suggest the C1 if you are looking for direct and minimal.

    However, your "pro" amp will probably sound quite lifeless. I have heard a few different models used for music, including Crown and was very unimpressed. Perhaps a tube pre could help voice the music a tad better.

  4. #4
    RGA
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    I would probably stay with a newer preamp than anything vintage at this point.

    I suppose it does depend on your budget but you could buy a Rotel RC 1082 (that I own) for about $400-$500 used. It's a little more than you probably want to spend but it's a nice SS preamp and it does an awful lot. You may find the phono stage in it better than the Project or close enough and if so you could then sell the Project to put the money toward the Rotel.

    The RC 1082 beat the snot out of an older very highly praised ARC and if you can beat an old ARC then you can probably beat an old anything. The Rotel has both an MM and an MC stage. And with the new line just out this may get traded (even though it's pretty much exactly the same except for cosmetic changes).

    There are plenty of fine preamps out there not just this one but since I have it is easier to recommend. Cheap tube preamps I am not completely sold on but you could look at Antique Sound Labs and Grant Fidelity as both companies are quite reasonably priced. Rogue Audio is another tube maker and may have a reasonable price. But I think they will all cost a fair bit more than the Rotel. Just because something is a tube don't expect it to sound warm and cuddly - and don't assume it will be better. For budget gear I like Rotel lately - they have a new team in place it would seem and they're making a bit of a run at some of the bigger guys and it doesn't sound like the Crown/Bryston school of design. More in the Classe, Sim Audio, YBA, camps only for considerably less (not quite as good but nowhere near as pricey). I'm pretty frugal - If I can get 90% there for 1/20th the price I can forgo the 10% and make up for that by buying far better loudspeakers or a better source.

    Again it was about $1200 new and you would likely be able to get on for under $500.
    http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-...o-preamplifier

  5. #5
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    You might also want to consider the Emotiva power amps. Several here have used them and seem to be quite happy with what they can do. They also have a $399.00 preamp that is good for the price.

    If your Sansui has preamp outputs just hook the power amp to it for now. I agree as well you will be better off with a home amp. The Adcom gfa-5500 or 555 are both a strong
    200x2 and can be bought used under $500.00. You might also look for the Rotel, Parasound or NAD amps that can be bridged into mono, usually they are cheap used and bridged can deliver a lot of power. However, the NAD model I heard still didn't hit very hard bridged. Adcom power & preamps are a steal on the used market, a great bang for the buck. I think you'd be happy with the result. Some of the Adcom preamps with tuner I have seen as low as $149.00, new were about $450.00.

    In the vintage arena, the Kid has both Kenwood c1 & c2, he reports the c2 sounded noticeably better. If you can find a working Kenwood M2 power amp it delivers 200x2, it's a beast with a built in fan. I haven't had experience with Yamaha vintage separates. I wasn't impressed with their integrated amps.

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    Peabody.....damn you for suggesting Emotiva! Not because I dont like it, but it looks nearly irresistible. The xpa-2 looks like like a lot of bang for the buck and has great reviews. At $799 direct from Emotiva, I'm having a hard time saying no.

    Found an Adcom gfa 5802 on ebay. Lost the bid at a grand. Too rich for my blood. Probably for the best.

    The Project Tube Box SE II had problems: The mm/mc switch and the subsonic filter switch were both broken. Was going to return it for another, but likely will just recover the money and put it toward the amp and pre amp.

    RGA: the rotel rc 1082 has great reviews as well. Looked briefly but couldnt find one for sale. Not sure what it means to NOT sound like the crown/bryston school of design. Could you elaborate?

    I'm fairly frugal too. Havent quite gotten to the point of spending over a grand for any piece in my set up.

    Leaning away from vintage gear. Whatever you buy, it seems you have to double the cost after a quality refurb. Though will always love the old school sound and the design of the vintage pieces. I'm just at a point where I am going in a different direction and getting all new stuff. New technology.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    The 5802 would of been awesome but a grand is a bit much to spend. Emotiva amps might be another option for a new amp and they have a good warranty with them as well and a 30 day money back guarantee so if it does not sound good to you just send it back. the xpa 2 would probably pound your vega's and would be the most power for the buck for a new amp.

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    Dayton 8" HO custom sealed subwoofer(2 channel)
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  8. #8
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGPERM

    RGA: the rotel rc 1082 has great reviews as well. Looked briefly but couldnt find one for sale. Not sure what it means to NOT sound like the crown/bryston school of design. Could you elaborate?

    I'm fairly frugal too. Havent quite gotten to the point of spending over a grand for any piece in my set up.

    Leaning away from vintage gear. Whatever you buy, it seems you have to double the cost after a quality refurb. Though will always love the old school sound and the design of the vintage pieces. I'm just at a point where I am going in a different direction and getting all new stuff. New technology.
    Crown was a pro audio amplifier maker that sounded rather brittle (fatiguing) in many people's views. Bryston in a way replaced Crown but still has some of that sound IMO. They're getting better but it still has that end of the spectrum. The Levinson school was a little more rounded sounding and perhaps less technically great but for whatever reason less fatiguing and a little more bass rich and fuller sounding. Classe and YBA would likely be classed on this side of the spectrum. Rotel has moved a little to the Classe side - perhaps because B&W owns both Rotel and Classe they have probably got a little cross designing going on.

    The vintage gear frankly isn't worth it. You may save money but you may end up spending more fixing the damn things and they probably won't sound better than new stuff for cheap anyway. Unless it was a very highly regarded amp - and the old Japanese receivers may be revered in many camps but really they're not very good by today's standards. A Rotel, Nad, Cambridge, Arcam would eat them for lunch.

    Try not to buy unheard. The main reason I suggested the RC 1082 is because it is loaded with features but it actually has the sonic chops. It has a best of both worlds appeal and a very solid reputable company with a lot of backing behind it. The RB 1052 is a power amp that goes for around $400-$500 new and it offers a lot. Although I would look at it used since power amps last many years and have no moving parts. It's pretty safe to buy used and probably get it for $300. Rotel also seems quite well built considering the price. Though not stated the RB 1050 is 70 watts and 100 watts 4 ohm and is stable for 4 ohm loads.

    The RB 1050 is discussed here http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...0601/rotel.htm

  9. #9
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The vintage gear frankly isn't worth it. You may save money but you may end up spending more fixing the damn things and they probably won't sound better than new stuff for cheap anyway.

    That's WAY too broad a stroke Rich. I would think that this sentiment applies if our poster does NOT have the analytical ability to sort through the scores of vintage gear that's out there.

    I bought my Bozak 919 for $120. It was built in the early 70's to compete with MAC, Marantz and all of the big boys at the time. It will absolutely slay some of the newer gear that's being sold today. Infact, your description of your Rotel pre fits the Bozak perfectly.

    Sure, I had my tech re-cap and mod a couple of things for me, but it was fine as is.

    Anyhow, I would say that vintage receivers are indeed a waste of time at this stage for the OP.

  10. #10
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    There are usually several Dynaco PAS 3 tube preamps on ebay that are well within your price range. The good part is that given their age many have been already been reconditioned with new parts. There is an entire forum devoted to the preservation of Dynaco amps and pramps which are now considered American icons.

    I have a PAS 3 on loan from a friend and it's pretty worn and beat up. Even though the insides all look original from 40+ years ago it sounds great with lots of sparkle on the top end. I would consider the warmth of a PAS tube pre over a sterile sounding solid state.

  11. #11
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    You insult Rotel's reputation in the market

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Crown was a pro audio amplifier maker that sounded rather brittle (fatiguing) in many people's views. Bryston in a way replaced Crown but still has some of that sound IMO. They're getting better but it still has that end of the spectrum. The Levinson school was a little more rounded sounding and perhaps less technically great but for whatever reason less fatiguing and a little more bass rich and fuller sounding. Classe and YBA would likely be classed on this side of the spectrum. Rotel has moved a little to the Classe side - perhaps because B&W owns both Rotel and Classe they have probably got a little cross designing going on.
    Rotel has a much longer pedigree than Classe and been a force in the market long before Classe was founded and were were producing some very decent stuff. To claim that the arrival of Classe improved things at Rotel is an insult to Rotel's reputation. How many Classe products have the enduring appeal of Rotel Michi series, for example?
    The vintage gear frankly isn't worth it.
    Hmm....that's quite a thing to say, in pure stereo, sound-wise, vintage gear would hold their own against many modern pieces. amplification technology, save Class D, is a mature technology and innovation sound quality terms peaked a while back, one of the many reasons high-end manufacturers are not too keen on blind tests, It's not good business for your market to realise that your brand new amplifier sounds no better than the one built 15 years earlier. The Rotel Michi is still excellent, even by today's standards, IMO.
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 01-09-2011 at 09:24 AM.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  12. #12
    RGA
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    TAH

    yes fair point about Rotel being around longer but perhaps the reason Classe makes superior amplifiers is due to not building to "as limited" a retail price constraint. Perhaps now that B&W is ruling they have more resources to give the designers at Rotel rather than Classe helping them. Parts quality does matter despite beliefs otherwise.

    poppachubby

    As for vintage there are exceptions but I don't really want to get into which 1972 amplifier for $250 used (and the more coveted the old amps generally the more they cost used) is better than a brand new NAD C352 or Rotel RA 02 or various equivalents. As while TAH brings up the DBT it works both ways - and at best you'd be looking at a draw sonically if I even subscribed to them which I don't for the many psychological reasons for not subscribing to them.

    The issue becomes one of repair and modernity and still getting available parts. Several of the vintage amps I have heard including popular ones like the ST70 tube amp are completely outclassed by relatively cheap amps today (though my understanding is the ST70 can be modded, but that is kind of like making a new amp out of the old chassis).

    While some amps of yore can beat new amps that says little. Which amps specifically better which amps specifically. I might buy an old Sugden A21a over a bunch of new amps but the old Sugden doesn't beat the 1992circa Sugden. A21a. And probably doesn't beat the newer SE version. Older tube amps like the Radford III in the blind test run by Colloms noted that even the top SS makers in the day with their new $3k -$10K SS amps all chose the used Tube amp over their high end creations. So yes there are exceptions but this was a good tube maker in the day and it is a different technology comparison. I am less convinced that a 1970s SS amplifier (of the non pure class A variety) will sound superior to amplifiers also of the non pure class variety). While there may be some exceptions (My dealer likes the old PS Audio and HK 430 or something but they have had a lot of vintage amps come through over the last 20 years and it is their view that a very small number of them compete with new pretty entry level SS amps today).

    Granted I am putting a little more stock into their view of this as they have floor to ceiling amps of the vintage variety in the back room and have been fixing them for over 30 years. But based on my experience with a few vintage amps from Pioneer, Sony, Denon, Sansui, Fisher(which was considered pretty good when they started - and the tube amps are another matter), Quad and even older Rotel, NAD, ARC, Celeste (Sima Audio - Sim Audio) the newer stuff for less does sound quite a bit better. Hey people here even think a Bryston SST2 sounds better than an ST series which was around in the mid 90's and the SST2 supposedly blows the SST, ST and NRB, and LP series out of the water. And these don't go back as far.

    I have nothing against vintage - but given the age of the parts caps, connections, resisters, volume pots and given the price of relatively entry level products of new modern part amplifiers, it doesn't make much sense to pour money into 1970s amps (or even most of the 1980s amps).

    Now if you could actually find a Michi somewhere then that would be an exception because this I believe was the premier line targeted at the Japanese market (though also sold well in Europe). It used superior parts and was their flagship line. It competes still but it won't be cheap and would probably still run close to what a used RB-1080 would run despite the latter being a decade newer. Hard to get items tend to drive their price up whether the sound is really worth it or not. The Michi was practically non existent in North America. This would certainly be a good exception to my generalized comment. A Kenwood 700 series might be worthwhile as well. In the Michi's case though as a power amplifier - If I saw one I would buy it. As I recall the preamps of even that series had mixed opinions. And that is where I think amps have gotten better - the preamp stage whether dedicated or part of an integrated. I would look at a Michi power amp and it probably competes with most but the preamp stage is doubtful. After hearing mid 1980's ARC the Rotel RC 1082 frankly blows it to the weeds. ARC was and still is in many circles considered to be one of the best preamp makers around.

    And TAH - while I agree with you on the Michi - perhaps our view of vintage is different. I am referring to 1970's vintage. The Michi was an early to mid 90's amp. The 1992 A21a beats the snot out of the 1967 variety and you could argue that the newer one doesn't beat the 1992 A21a as much or at all. I suppose you could look at mid 90's amps as vintage - man I'm getting old. Mid 90's doesn't seem all that long ago.
    Last edited by RGA; 01-09-2011 at 12:01 PM.

  13. #13
    Audio Hobbyist Since 1969 Glen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    How many Classe products have the enduring appeal of Rotel Michi series, for example?
    Well, the DR-series preamps and amps for one thing. The full class A model DR-3 amp is very rare and highly sought after.

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