Need an amp!

[mlenda]

Hey folks,

I've got a turntable, I've got vinyls, and I've got ears. The first item I'm hunting down for my new HiFi system is an amplifier; perhaps integrated with preamp, DAC, etc.

Some details:

1) Source: Vinyl records -- via Audio Technica AT-PL120 turntable. It has the option of both line out and phono out, but given that the turntable itself is only a few hundred bucks brand new, I don't think that its built-in preamp is any good.

2) Budget: $1000-$1500 (for preamp+amp or single integrated amp)

3) Desired volume: I don't ever plan on taking this thing to 11 except for demos to the curious lady-friend (). I'll be listening to my vinyls in a single square room, about 15'x15', with the typical furniture in there -- a bed, a desk, a coat rack. Long-term, I don't plan on having my hifi system in a room much different than this (until I make my first million, at least).

4) I own a pair of powered Behringer TRUTH B-2030A monitors that I purchased for recording purposes a few years ago. Still in top shape as far as I can tell. These may be the speakers I want to use with my shiny new amp, though I don't know just yet. Speakers are another story.

5) Other need-to-knows (from the thread above):
-This system will be dedicated to playing vinyls. That said, I am holding out for the possibility of having a DAC inside (integrated amps, anyone?) so I can hook up my computer or iPod and play music from my much larger digital library, but I don't want to make any sacrifices in sound quality just to get both vinyls and digital music to sound good -- I'm optimizing for my vinyls!
-I love tubes. I think.

The wealth of information from Google searches is... well, overwhelming. What's a good starting point? Who sells good stuff? Anybody know of places in LA where I can bring a few records and actually listen to the thing on which I'll be blowing $1500?

-m

[blackraven]

Here are a few options for integrated amps-

Musical Fidelity - M3i - Intergrated Amplifier-Audio Advisor

Music Hall - a70.2 Integrated Amp-Audio Advisor

Marantz - PM-8004 - Integrated Amplifer-Audio Advisor

For amps-

Consider a used Adcom amp or-

Marantz - MM7025 - Two Channel Power Amplifier-Audio Advisor

Parasound - Halo A23 Balanced Amplifier-Audio Advisor

For a preamp- consider used or if you don't mind going the Chinese route, consider the Grant Fidelity tube DAC-11 Preamp/DAC. I will be getting one for christmas and will do a review on it. The reviews on it have been very good.

Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 D/A Converter

[JoeE SP9]

mlenda: br has given IMO excellent advice. The Grant Fidelity DAC is well reviewd. I've been looking at it myself.

BTW: Vinyl is both single and plural.

[mlenda]

Hmm. I also stumbled on the "Peachtree Audio Nova (Black) Stereo integrated amplifier with built-in DAC."

Has USB in with a good DAC, home theater bypass, and is a tubey! But it doesn't appear to have a phono preamp.

-m

[mlenda]

Ohh! Or, the NAD-C-165 BEE... no DAC, but choice of phono preamp MC vs. MM!

-m

[Enochrome]

The Peachtree Nova is a good amp and has received great reviews. The DAC is really the high point of this piece of gear. Although, it has a tube, it is not really a tube amp. As far as I know the tube is either a buffer or provides a small amount of gain to the preamp (correct me if i'm wrong). I think the Musical Fidelity is good choice as well , they usually offer well made good all around performers.

I live in Eagle Rock right next door to you. There is a place called GNP Audio on Colorado just east past Old Town that sells the Peachtree. They are nice and will demo it for you. Also, if you would like to stop by with your speakers I have both a solid state integrated amp and an all tube integrated that you can listen to for a better idea of the differences between the two. It is much better to listen to gear with your own speakers instead of the $3000 speakers stores usually demo with.

Send me a message through this forum if you would like to cruise over for a better idea. No worries, just trying to help; buying gear can be nerve racking sometimes.

I would definitely invest in a good phono preamp and most likely you will have to go to Brooks Berdan in Monrovia if you want to demo. WARNING, they are high end and have few items that are budget, but they are nice guys. Phono stages like: Cambridge 640p, Creek OB series, Graham Slee, and Simaudio Moon series, Project Phono box series all have offerings of $350 or less.

Can you run those speakers in passive mode? If not, I don't see how you will be able to use those with an integrated. I would probably spend less on the amp and try to get good speakers as well. Speakers are easiest to demo and as well to buy used. You can get a pretty decent pair for 500 - $600 or a little less. I see people selling the Focal 706V/806V for 400/500 and those speakers kick ass!

[blackraven]

Here is another amp to consider. Its a VAn Alstine integrated and you can add his excellent phono preamp to the chassi. His gear has a retro look but it is of great value and is always neutral to warmer sounding. It comes with a 30day money back, no questions asked guarentee and his customer services is second to none. Frank Van Alstine always answers his phone and is always happy to talk audio. He also is striving to improve his gear and many times offers mods and upgrades to his gear. avahifi - avahifi and check out his forum on Audio by Van Alstine

I own his Hybrid tube DAC and Hybrid Tube Preamp and both have been modded by him for reasonable cost with great improvement in sound. You rarely see his gear on the used market. He also offers home theater by pass switch mods for the amps if you plan on using it on the front end of a HT set up.

avahifi - Insight+ Integrated Control Amplifier



I would definetly buy a phono preamp as well.

Consider these and look on audiogon.com for used one's at big savings-

Bellari VP130 Tube Phono Preamp I have a friend that has this and it is a very nice sounding budget tube phono preamp. It is well reviewed and highly regarded.

Clearaudio Nano Phono Preamp

Pro-Ject Tube Box II Phono Preamp

Pro-Ject Phono Box SE II Phono Preamp

[mlenda]

The Peachtree Nova is a good amp and has received great reviews. The DAC is really the high point of this piece of gear. Although, it has a tube, it is not really a tube amp. As far as I know the tube is either a buffer or provides a small amount of gain to the preamp (correct me if i'm wrong). I think the Musical Fidelity is good choice as well , they usually offer well made good all around performers.

I live in Eagle Rock right next door to you. There is a place called GNP Audio on Colorado just east past Old Town that sells the Peachtree. They are nice and will demo it for you. Also, if you would like to stop by with your speakers I have both a solid state integrated amp and an all tube integrated that you can listen to for a better idea of the differences between the two. It is much better to listen to gear with your own speakers instead of the $3000 speakers stores usually demo with.

Send me a message through this forum if you would like to cruise over for a better idea. No worries, just trying to help; buying gear can be nerve racking sometimes.

I would definitely invest in a good phono preamp and most likely you will have to go to Brooks Berdan in Monrovia if you want to demo. WARNING, they are high end and have few items that are budget, but they are nice guys. Phono stages like: Cambridge 640p, Creek OB series, Graham Slee, and Simaudio Moon series, Project Phono box series all have offerings of $350 or less.

Can you run those speakers in passive mode? If not, I don't see how you will be able to use those with an integrated. I would probably spend less on the amp and try to get good speakers as well. Speakers are easiest to demo and as well to buy used. You can get a pretty decent pair for 500 - $600 or a little less. I see people selling the Focal 706V/806V for 400/500 and those speakers kick ass!

Holy crap, how did I miss them? I'm about 3 miles from them... nice find.

Now that I think about it, maybe requiring the amp to have a preamp too isn't what I want. Having control over the sound coming out of the TT is what I really want.

I will probably take you up on the offer of listening to your setup. I'll let you know when's best -- I'm in Colorado for the holidays. Thanks a bunch. Young guys like me need a guide!

-m


EDIT:

Hey, speaking of preamps...

Here is another amp to consider. Its a VAn Alstine integrated and you can add his excellent phono preamp to the chassi. His gear has a retro look but it is of great value and is always neutral to warmer sounding. It comes with a 30day money back, no questions asked guarentee and his customer services is second to none. Frank Van Alstine always answers his phone and is always happy to talk audio. He also is striving to improve his gear and many times offers mods and upgrades to his gear. www.avahif.com and check out his forum on avahifi - Insight+ Integrated Control Amplifier



I would definetly buy a phono preamp as well.

Consider these and look on audiogon.com for used one's at big savings-

Bellari VP130 Tube Phono Preamp I have a friend that has this and it is a very nice sounding budget tube phono preamp. It is well reviewed and highly regarded.

Clearaudio Nano Phono Preamp

Pro-Ject Tube Box II Phono Preamp

Pro-Ject Phono Box SE II Phono Preamp

I was recommended that Bellari by more than one person -- make that about four people now!

I guess this is where I need to find a place to listen to a whole bunch of them before I pull the trigger and regret it. It's all about that preamp...

Thanks!

-m

[Enochrome]

M,

They have the Bellari at GNP Audio also

[blackraven]

Here is a working link for the Van Alstine gear-

avahifi - avahifi

avahifi - Insight+ Integrated Control Amplifier

[mlenda]

I've read some good reviews of not only the Pro-Ject Tube Box II, but also of its more expensive cousin the Tube Box SE II. I am willing to go big and throw down the money if it's that much better than, say, the Bellari. Need to demo them, though!

I'm thinking of going with the Peachtree Audio Nova as my amp. What I really like is its USB DAC -- perfect for playing my huge digital library. Plus I wouldn't be sacrificing money on an integrated amp with a preamp that isn't as good as a standalone preamp...

Now, I'm thinking of speakers... [/disappears to speakers forum]

-m

[blackraven]

The Tube Box SE II is much better than the Bellari. I would only invest in a higher end phono preamp if you plan on upgrading your TT in the future. You should also think about a good phono Cartridge. You system is only as good as the weakest link, especially with TT's. The Clear Audio Nano phono preamp is a very good preamp and may be better than the Bellari.

If you want to go the Tube route for an amp, here is great buy on a used Van Alstine Tube amp- Scroll down to the bottom of the linked page.

avahifi - Used Equipment

avahifi - Ultimate 70 Vacuum Tube Amplifier

[mlenda]

The Tube Box SE II is much better than the Bellari. I would only invest in a higher end phono preamp if you plan on upgrading your TT in the future. You should also think about a good phono Cartridge. You system is only as good as the weakest link, especially with TT's. The Clear Audio Nano phono preamp is a very good preamp and may be better than the Bellari.

If you want to go the Tube route for an amp, here is great buy on a used Van Alstine Tube amp- Scroll down to the bottom of the linked page.

avahifi - Used Equipment

avahifi - Ultimate 70 Vacuum Tube Amplifier

Agreed. The stock cartridge on the Audio Technica AT-PL120 (my TT) requires something like 3-5g of tracking force -- apparently pretty high. And it's not that great, from what I hear. I was thinking of replacing the cartridge right away. You think the whole TT needs an upgrade? I love my TT's features and don't want to shirk it all if a cartridge upgrade will get me a great improvement on its own.

-m

[blackraven]

I would upgrade the rest of your system first then address your TT as money allows. You should look at gear that is a lot of bang for the buck, meaning performs at a higher level than its price.

[mlenda]

Also like the Cambridge Azur:

Azur 651A Integrated amplifier

Has a DAC and an MP3 player port on the front.

Now I'm thinking about logistics of the room. I'm realizing now that since I'll be stationing my desk/computer on the opposite side of the room from the preamp/amp/speakers, it would be awkward to string a USB cable from the computer to the amp across the whole room when I want to play my digital music from my computer... Anyone else hit the same kinds of problems?

Though, I'm buying this system for my vinyl and not necessarily for the ability to play digital music, so it's kind of a moot point...

-m

[Enochrome]

Maybe:

1. Integrated Amp or Power Amp (can be controlled by DAC-11)
2. Grant Fidelity DAC-11 or DacMagic
3. Clearaudio Nano, Musical Surrounding Phenomena, or Phono Box Se 2, Cambridge 640p

and you still might have money left over if $1500 is your budget...can you say speakers because from what I looked up your speakers are active only and so all this amp choosing won't matter unless you use it as just a preamp.

You need to decide whether you want to build your system around your speakers or vice versa.

Maybe the most rational approach if you like your speakers for the time being is to go with seperates.
Buy a good preamp and great phono stage, and you are still way south of a thousand. After awhile you decide to get new speakers you will have to buy the power amp for them and that can be tubed or solid state.

Let me know if I am wrong about your speakers, but if I am right, no need to discuss integrateds or the like. I would not personally buy an integrated as a preamp unless you are sold on the power amp it has as well, so you can just get new speakers in the future.

[mlenda]

Maybe:

1. Integrated Amp or Power Amp (can be controlled by DAC-11)
2. Grant Fidelity DAC-11 or DacMagic
3. Clearaudio Nano, Musical Surrounding Phenomena, or Phono Box Se 2, Cambridge 640p

and you still might have money left over if $1500 is your budget...can you say speakers because from what I looked up your speakers are active only and so all this amp choosing won't matter unless you use it as just a preamp.

You need to decide whether you want to build your system around your speakers or vice versa.

Maybe the most rational approach if you like your speakers for the time being is to go with seperates.
Buy a good preamp and great phono stage, and you are still way south of a thousand. After awhile you decide to get new speakers you will have to buy the power amp for them and that can be tubed or solid state.

Let me know if I am wrong about your speakers, but if I am right, no need to discuss integrateds or the like. I would not personally buy an integrated as a preamp unless you are sold on the power amp it has as well, so you can just get new speakers in the future.

I actually don't plan on using my Behringers. I have been eyeballing Magnepan MMGs all day -- some great reviews for them, and they're not bank-breakers.

Looking at the Nova, its manual says it can drive a pair of speakers between 4 Ohms and 8 Ohms -- so is that total or per speaker? The MMGs, for example, are 4 Ohms each, so their total resistance is lower than 4 Ohms. Looking at the Azur, it can only drive 8 Ohm loads, so the MMGs wouldn't match it.

My plan:
1) Select separate (tube!) phono preamp stage -- either the Bellari or the Pro-Ject Tube Box II (maybe the SE)
2) Select pair of speakers -- either the Magnepans or a nice bookshelf pair on stands
3) Select an amp that can drive the speakers; hopefully it has a DAC, too, but no big deal if it doesn't.

Now the amp seems to be the lowest driver in my aural hunt. For my situation, picking the amp seems to be an exercise in finding one to drive the speakers properly.

Yeah?

-m

[blackraven]

If you are even thinking about a pair of Magnepans you should be considering a better amp than the Cambridge Audio 651A. I would not go with an amp less than 125wpc of high current power that can deliver at least 200wpc at 4ohms.

This Class D Audio amp is a real bargain and delivers 125wpc at 8ohms and 250wpc at 4 ohms. It compares to amps in the $1500-$2000 range. It is very dynamic and would be a great match with a Grant Fidelity DAC-11 Preamp/DAC and a Bellari tube phono preamp. You could get all three for under $1100 or upgrade the phono preamp to the Pro-Ject Tube Box IIse and be around your $1500 mark. It would be a killer system.

Class D Audio SDS-254 Complete amp - Complete Amplifiers - PRODUCTS

Here it is in kit form with its listed specs-

Class D Audio SDS-254 Kit - Class D Audio Kits - PRODUCTS

One of our forum members bought the SDS-254 kit and really likes it. It replaced his Monarchy Amps. PM Feanor and get his opinion on it.

These amps have a tube like quality to the sound. They are very dynamic with great air and transparency. Bass is deep, powerful an well controlled.

I recently bought the cheaper CDA-254 which is a great amp. I just paired it with the bargain of the century DAC-11, and my Magnepan MMG's. The spacing between instruments with this combo you just can't get without spending about $2k more.

You can read about user experiences here-

$175 Class D amp--120 wpc

And here is my recent review of the DAC-11 with a Class D amp and the MMG's-

DAC-11, It's Here!

[mlenda]

If you are even thinking about a pair of Magnepans you should be considering a better amp than the Cambridge Audio 651A. I would not go with an amp less than 125wpc of high current power that can deliver at least 200wpc at 4ohms.

This Class D Audio amp is a real bargain and delivers 125wpc at 8ohms and 250wpc at 4 ohms. It compares to amps in the $1500-$2000 range. It is very dynamic and would be a great match with a Grant Fidelity DAC-11 Preamp/DAC and a Bellari tube phono preamp. You could get all three for under $1100 or upgrade the phono preamp to the Pro-Ject Tube Box IIse and be around your $1500 mark. It would be a killer system.

Class D Audio SDS-254 Complete amp - Complete Amplifiers - PRODUCTS

Here it is in kit form with its listed specs-

Class D Audio SDS-254 Kit - Class D Audio Kits - PRODUCTS

One of our forum members bought the SDS-254 kit and really likes it. It replaced his Monarchy Amps. PM Feanor and get his opinion on it.

These amps have a tube like quality to the sound. They are very dynamic with great air and transparency. Bass is deep, powerful an well controlled.

I recently bought the cheaper CDA-254 which is a great amp. I just paired it with the bargain of the century DAC-11, and my Magnepan MMG's. The spacing between instruments with this combo you just can't get without spending about $2k more.

You can read about user experiences here-

$175 Class D amp--120 wpc

And here is my recent review of the DAC-11 with a Class D amp and the MMG's-

DAC-11, It's Here!

I like the concept -- bargain but high-performing amp and DAC paired with a quality phono preamp. And I'm now finding the same thing over and over about the MMGs: drive them with lots of power!

I can't find any good rearside screenshots of the Class D Amp -- I'm not exactly sure how I'd hook all my goodies together, how many inputs the amp has, etc. Looks like the DAC would be my volume control?

Thanks!

-m

[JoeE SP9]

The ClassD amp is just a power amplifier. It has inputs to drive a power amp. The variable output from the DAC11 would be connected to the ClassD's inputs. All switching and volume woulld be controlled by the DAC11.

[blackraven]

The Class D Amp is not an integrated amp and has only one set of inputs as most power amps have (unless it has XLR inputs as well). It is the Preamp that has multiple inputs such as the DAC-11 which is a Preamp and DAC all in one. However, you can have a Class D power amp custom made such as this example showing the rear panel and insides, you will have to scroll down the page in the link-

$175 Class D amp--120 wpc

The DAC-11 has multiple inputs, 2 analog, 1 digital coax, 1 digital optical and 1 USB. And it has multiple out puts-Tube Out, Line out, DAC out.

Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 D/A Converter


By the way, then MMG's not only like high power but they like high current power. Some people may argue this point but in my experience with my MMG's and QR1.6's, higher current seems to make the sound more dynamic with more depth and better sounding at low volumes as well. It may just be a function of having a better amp rather than current but I believe that many Magnepan owners will agree with me.

[mlenda]

The ClassD amp is just a power amplifier. It has inputs to drive a power amp. The variable output from the DAC11 would be connected to the ClassD's inputs. All switching and volume woulld be controlled by the DAC11.

Just what I thought. Would I use the "Tube Out" or the "Line Out" output from the DAC-11?

(silly questions...)

By the way, then MMG's not only like high power but they like high current power. Some people may argue this point but in my experience with my MMG's and QR1.6's, higher current seems to make the sound more dynamic with more depth and better sounding at low volumes as well. It may just be a function of having a better amp rather than current but I believe that many Magnepan owners will agree with me.

Noted, thanks!

-m

[blackraven]

You can use either output but the tube out is where this unit really shines. You can use the tube out for the preamp out to the power amp or for just a DAC out through the tube stage to a separate preamp.. I think that you will really like the sound of this preamp paired with the digital amp and a tube phono preamp. The nice thing about the DAC-11 is that you have a Preamp tube out, solid state out and solid state and tube output for the DAC.

The nice thing about the Class D amp and DAC-11 is that it its a lot of bang for the buck and you could spend hundreds more if not a thousand more trying to get the same sound. Pair these with the MMG's and a nice sub (if you want more bass, but with the Class D amp you will be surprised at the nice deep punchy bass it puts out) and you will have quite the system.

Let us know what you decide to do. It is always nice to get some one's opinion whether good or bad.

[mlenda]

You can use either output but the tube out is where this unit really shines. You can use the tube out for the preamp out to the power amp or for just a DAC out through the tube stage to a separate preamp.. I think that you will really like the sound of this preamp paired with the digital amp and a tube phono preamp. The nice thing about the DAC-11 is that you have a Preamp tube out, solid state out and solid state and tube output for the DAC.

The nice thing about the Class D amp and DAC-11 is that it its a lot of bang for the buck and you could spend hundreds more if not a thousand more trying to get the same sound. Pair these with the MMG's and a nice sub (if you want more bass, but with the Class D amp you will be surprised at the nice deep punchy bass it puts out) and you will have quite the system.

Let us know what you decide to do. It is always nice to get some one's opinion whether good or bad.

I get the same feeling. Bang for the buck.

I'm thinking the the wiring for everything would be:

Turntable Phono Out ==> Tube Phono Preamp In ==> Tube Phono Preamp Out ==> DAC In ==> DAC Tube Out ==> Power Amp In

Next question is, what is the DAC doing to the signal coming from the TT phono preamp? Is it just passing it directly to through to the power amp? Of course, the volume and switching are controlled by the DAC, but other than that?

What I like about this setup is that all I need to do is turn the selector wheel from Line A (or B) to USB (or optical), and they're both using the Tube Out going to the power amp.

(... right?)

-m

[blackraven]

You don't use the DAC for the phono which is analog, its only for the Digital out from a CD Player or DVD player bypassing the internal DAC in the players. You will run the turntable to the Phono Preamp to the Analog input of the Preamp/DAC-11 and then out the tube output to the power amp (or the solid state out if you chose to bypass the tube if you so desire). You will hook up your CD players digital out to the digital input of the DAC-11. The DAC-11 has a selector switch so that you can switch between different inputs (SOURCES-like turntable, CD player, tuner, computer, etc.). A TurnTable does not use a DAC ( converts a digital signal to an analog signal) as it puts out an analog signal that must be amplified by a phono preamp.