McIntosh preamp?

I am considering buying a McIntosh C2200 preamp. Does any one know any thing about the sound?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by blackraven

I am considering buying a McIntosh C2200 preamp. Does any one know any thing about the sound?

Thanks!

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I've read that preamp was very good.....very quiet with a very neutral sound. Might be what you need. I am one that happends to like McIntosh...some say they are too warm....I find them very musical,

Here is a great review on the C2200. The reviewer does not call the preamp warm but he says it is neutral. I like the fact that it has tone controls which can be taken out of the loop. It may not be the last word in resolution but it may be what I am looking for. I had a bid on a CJ ET-3se but the guy would never respond to me on audiogon.


http://akdatabase.org/AKview/albums/...0%20Review.PDF


I was a bit concerned about the output impedance being 500 ohms but I called Pass Labs and they said the X250 would be fine with an impedance up to 1K.

The C2200 is great. Easy setup, very quiet and I like the flexibility of being able to play around with different tubes. The tone controls w/defeat are extremely handy and could not do without them. Having 2 outputs is super for adding a subwoofer although it would be such a bonus to have a crossover for the main output and limit low frequencies to the main speakers but I realize that's rare for a stereo preamp. It does have the older style remote control which is fine but the following generation feels much better in the hand. Also I don't know why in the hell they went with the tiny 1/8" headphone jack instead of 1/4", this choice really chafes my ass to no end! Just mentioning it gets me irritated. Overall a great unit and I bet they can be had for a pretty reasonable price these days.

Raven..why dont you go and get this? You will be in heaven I can assure you!

Vincent - SA-T8 Symmetrical hybrid stereo preamplifier - Vincent-tac


Vincent - SA-T8 - Tube Hybrid Stereo Preamp-Audio Advisor


TAS 188: Vincent Audio SA-T8 Preamplifier & SP-T800 Monoblock Amplifier | The Absolute Sound

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And the story gets even better with the SA-T8 line preamp. It made a very positive first impression with its precise and speedy transient reproduction, pure midrange textures, and rhythmic drive. I did initially note a bit of grain and assertive brightness through the upper registers, but as the preamp settled in after several hours of break-in the rough edges essentially disappeared. The lower treble, however, remained a bit coarser texturally relative to the midrange. Despite the fact that this is an all-tube preamp, its presentation was both direct and broadband in nature. No deficiencies were noted as far as treble roll-off or bass extension. And most remarkable of all, it evinced a velvety black background, which allowed the music’s harmonic tapestry to unfold with crystalline purity.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Raven..why dont you go and get this? You will be in heaven I can assure you!

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$2,500.00 for a featureless bare bones chinese preamp....eh, not so sure. Now used for let's say 1k then worth a shot.

Oh, you dont have to be sure....I am! And your not Raven.

Dont you have Castle Speakers?

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Oh, you dont have to be sure....I am! And your not Raven.

Dont you have Castle Speakers?

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I do have Castle speakers (not sure how that relates to a preamp) and what's your problem with others posting in this thread? If you asked for opinions on a piece of gear you were considering buying wouldn't you want to hear as many comments as possible both good and bad?

Minimalistic preamps have their place for sure but my point was the Vincent seems like a complete rip job at that price regardless how it may sound.

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Originally Posted by TheHills44060

I do have Castle speakers (not sure how that relates to a preamp)

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Made in China....just like those Swan speakers you had/have.

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and what's your problem with others posting in this thread? If you asked for opinions on a piece of gear you were considering buying wouldn't you want to hear as many comments as possible both good and bad?

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Dont have any problems with peps posting in thread...but you where rude, when you didnt have to be.

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Minimalistic preamps have their place for sure but my point was the Vincent seems like a complete rip job at that price regardless how it may sound.

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Naw...not a rip at all...I own amp/preamp...the pair $4300.00 retail, and its very much under priced.

Frenchmon,

I have considered the Vincent and it appears to be a great preamp from the reviews. I have always admired their gear and if I was starting from scratch I would probably go with them as they are a company that is a lot of bang for the buck with tube gear. But I think that I will get the most bang for the buck going used. I really wanted the CJ ET-3se (which is only slightly warm and not syrupy) but the guy on Agon was a dealer and would not respond to me. I think he sold it privately.

As far as the Mac goes, I just happened upon a C2200 that has only 150 hrs on it. The Vincent may be comparable in sound for all I know. I have heard mixed reviews on the tonal quality of the 2200. The reviews say it is neutral and some people say it is warm.
The same can be said for BAT VK-51se that I am looking at. Warmer is what I want but not overly warm. The Vincent would probably give me what I want but I want a preamp that sold for $4K and above. There is definitely diminishing returns on the sound as you get above $3K but it is noticeable.

One thing that I like about the C2200 is tone controls. It would certainly help with some of my Cd's that are overly bright or sibilant.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Made in China....just like those Swan speakers you had/have.

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Please get your facts straight. Castle speakers are now made in China (since 2010-ish so don't quote me) but they were manufactured in England for years and years. I bought mine in 2001 and wouldn't touch any of the new chinese Castle variants. There is no comparison between the two.

The Swans are indeed chinese but they also happen to be super inexpensive and a value to my ears. I wouldn't recommend them for full time duty but for my application in a second system with sub they are just what the doctor ordered. I didn't want to make much of an investment.

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Dont have any problems with peps posting in thread...but you where rude, when you didnt have to be.

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How was I rude? I said my opinion was that it was overpriced for what you get and a much lower used price would be more inline.

Now it's blatantly obvious you took offense to the me stating the Vincent was chinese made and you happen to own one. Not sure why that would bother you but don't worry you don't need to explain.

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Naw...not a rip at all...I own amp/preamp...the pair $4300.00 retail, and its very much under priced.

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That's fine and dandy. The more options for Raven the merrier and I have always enjoyed reading your posts but in the meantime don't take things so personally when someone puts in their 2 cents also. It's all good here, sheesh.

Oh and raven i did experiment with the swapping tubes and the changes are evident when compared to the stock tubes. Sometimes better and sometimes just different. I didn't have any particular issues with the Mac tubes but I wanted to tinker. I think you have more experience than me in that area so I'm sure you already have your favs.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

One thing that I like about the C2200 is tone controls. It would certainly help with some of my Cd's that are overly bright or sibilant.

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Agreed 100%. The tone controls are absolutely invaluable in my experience. Heck even the balance knob is useful.

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Originally Posted by TheHills44060

Oh and raven i did experiment with the swapping tubes and the changes are evident when compared to the stock tubes. Sometimes better and sometimes just different. I didn't have any particular issues with the Mac tubes but I wanted to tinker. I think you have more experience than me in that area so I'm sure you already have your favs.

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What Mac did you have and what tubes did you like? I am only familiar with all the 6CG7's, 6N1P's, 6DJ8's and 396A's. The Mac's use different tubes.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

What Mac did you have and what tubes did you like? I am only familiar with all the 6CG7's, 6N1P's, 6DJ8's and 396A's. The Mac's use different tubes.

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I currently own the C220 preamp but I had both the C2200 and C2300 in my own system for a while so I got to dabble quite a bit. First I tried Electo-Harmonix because they were a friend's leftovers. Oddly I didn't hear much of a difference at all which made me paranoid because I thought I must be missing something. It was my first tube swap so naturally i was bummed out.

Next I tried some Ruby's that came from from a guitar amp and my first impression was that they hissed a lot more than I liked. Good crunch but I couldn't get over the background noise. Not sure if that was due to the fact that they were burned hot in the amp but nevertheless I was turned off.

I borrowed some Svetlana's which I really liked but in the end I ended up with Gold Lions. I love a warm sound but these tubes gave me the best of both worlds and kept me from diving into the overly warm pool which I tend to do sometimes.

EDIT: I never did get a chance to try Tung-Sol's which I have heard some favor in the Mac preamps.

Was the C2200 detailed? Did it have good air, sound stage and transparency? Was it warm or more neutral? How as the midrange?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Was the C2200 detailed? Did it have good air, sound stage and transparency? Was it warm or more neutral? How as the midrange?

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Let me address air and sound stage first. The best I can describe is that I wasn't hearing a big wall of sound crashing on top of me but instead I felt like was surrounded by music in different locations on different planes yet everything melded together without being mushed together into a conglomeration. The air was there because if I chose to I could easily focus on a particular instrument and analyze it then break my concentration and enjoy the piece as a whole. Not sure if that makes any sense but it's the only way I can explain it without resorting to all useless reviewer adjectives and terminology.

Now as far as warmth vs detail that's a more slippery slope. My preference is for warmth over detail and i think I'd rate every piece of gear in my system from source to speakers to be on the warm side. What I can say is when I inserted the C2200 into the mix I didn't I feel like I turned my listening room into a quiet ski cabin with thick area rugs, giant tapestries and furry elk heads on the wall which rob high frequencies. You mentioned tone controls for taming sibilance, well the same cd's where I needed to turn down the treble with other preamps I still needed to do so with the C2200. Based on this I think it's has some pretty darn neutral qualities but since nothing is absolutely neutral I'd say a tick on the warm side.

I have used various Rotel, Adcom, Onkyo Integra, Creek, Bryston preamps in my system in the same room and the C2200 was my favorite.

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Originally Posted by TheHills44060

The C2200 is great. Easy setup, very quiet and I like the flexibility of being able to play around with different tubes. The tone controls w/defeat are extremely handy and could not do without them. Having 2 outputs is super for adding a subwoofer although it would be such a bonus to have a crossover for the main output and limit low frequencies to the main speakers but I realize that's rare for a stereo preamp. It does have the older style remote control which is fine but the following generation feels much better in the hand. Also I don't know why in the hell they went with the tiny 1/8" headphone jack instead of 1/4", this choice really chafes my ass to no end! Just mentioning it gets me irritated. Overall a great unit and I bet they can be had for a pretty reasonable price these days.

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I was just reading reviews on the latest big Rotel units and the same complaint from owners there about the 1/8 Headphone jack. It would seem that MFGs think that everybody uses cheesy ear buds or they save $0.50 on each unit by using the 1/8 in place of the 1/4 jack. Either way, that sucks.

Thanks Hills! I am at the point that sacrificing a smidge of detail for the overall sound is worth it. I really like my X1 preamp but it is definitely missing some emotion to the music. The Mac is probably not as detailed or transparent but it sounds like it will fit the bill. It has XLR, tone controls, tubes and great reviews and heritage. It was an Stereophile class A component for what ever that is worth. And its lovely worthless blue meters.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I was just reading reviews on the latest big Rotel units and the same complaint from owners there about the 1/8 Headphone jack. It would seem that MFGs think that everybody uses cheesy ear buds or they save $0.50 on each unit by using the 1/8 in place of the 1/4 jack. Either way, that sucks.

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Wow what a sad trend. Even if for some ungodly reason I wanted to use 1/8 plug walkman headphones with a nice stereo preamp I'd still rather use a 1/8 to 1/4 adapter just for the snug connection and piece of mind. I'm always worried about that little plug snapping off.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Thanks Hills! I am at the point that sacrificing a smidge of detail for the overall sound is worth it. I really like my X1 preamp but it is definitely missing some emotion to the music. The Mac is probably not as detailed or transparent but it sounds like it will fit the bill. It has XLR, tone controls, tubes and great reviews and heritage. It was an Stereophile class A component for what ever that is worth. And its lovely worthless blue meters.

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No problemo. I wish I had heard the X1 before so i could give you a precise A to B comparison but I've never known anyone with a Pass preamp however I think your gut feeling is on track. I agree that from the reputations of both companies one would think you may lose some of that initial Pass excitement and pop but gain some long term emotion and enjoyment with the C2200.

As embarrassing as it sounds the glow of the Mac really does have a soothing effect. It would be strange for me not to see the blue and green hue cast onto the floor and walls in my listening room anymore.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Frenchmon,

I have considered the Vincent and it appears to be a great preamp from the reviews. I have always admired their gear and if I was starting from scratch I would probably go with them as they are a company that is a lot of bang for the buck with tube gear. But I think that I will get the most bang for the buck going used. I really wanted the CJ ET-3se (which is only slightly warm and not syrupy) but the guy on Agon was a dealer and would not respond to me. I think he sold it privately.

As far as the Mac goes, I just happened upon a C2200 that has only 150 hrs on it. The Vincent may be comparable in sound for all I know. I have heard mixed reviews on the tonal quality of the 2200. The reviews say it is neutral and some people say it is warm.
The same can be said for BAT VK-51se that I am looking at. Warmer is what I want but not overly warm. The Vincent would probably give me what I want but I want a preamp that sold for $4K and above. There is definitely diminishing returns on the sound as you get above $3K but it is noticeable.

One thing that I like about the C2200 is tone controls. It would certainly help with some of my Cd's that are overly bright or sibilant.

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Raven...I understand. Every mac I've heard was not overly warm. But as you know, one mans warm, is not the same as that other mans warm, so you may have to take a chance, have a listen to one, or go with some ones ears you trust. Right now the only person we know who has heard it is TheHill$4406. So you may have to go off his ears.

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Originally Posted by TheHills44060

Please get your facts straight. Castle speakers are now made in China (since 2010-ish so don't quote me) but they were manufactured in England for years and years. I bought mine in 2001 and wouldn't touch any of the new chinese Castle variants. There is no comparison between the two.

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Ok...good for you.

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The Swans are indeed chinese but they also happen to be super inexpensive and a value to my ears. I wouldn't recommend them for full time duty but for my application in a second system with sub they are just what the doctor ordered. I didn't want to make much of an investment.

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Also...good for you.

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How was I rude? I said my opinion was that it was overpriced for what you get and a much lower used price would be more inline.

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Ok...thats your opinion...I don't share that.

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Now it's blatantly obvious you took offense to the me stating the Vincent was chinese made and you happen to own one. Not sure why that would bother you but don't worry you don't need to explain.

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Its not a secret its Chinese made...infact at the ShengYa factory. German owned and designed in Germany and built at ShengYa factory for cost. I would hope you understand some great products come out of China...its a global market you know.

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That's fine and dandy. The more options for Raven the merrier and I have always enjoyed reading your posts but in the meantime don't take things so personally when someone puts in their 2 cents also. It's all good here, sheesh.

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Perhaps I took offense of you saying its over priced when infact I know they are under priced. Not that I want them to raise prices, but thats the reason they went to China....cost. Perhaps I read a negative tone when I should not have.

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Oh and raven i did experiment with the swapping tubes and the changes are evident when compared to the stock tubes. Sometimes better and sometimes just different. I didn't have any particular issues with the Mac tubes but I wanted to tinker. I think you have more experience than me in that area so I'm sure you already have your favs.

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Originally Posted by TheHills44060

Agreed 100%. The tone controls are absolutely invaluable in my experience. Heck even the balance knob is useful.

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I have tone controls on my SA-T1 and never have to use them. I find the Telefunken, Valvo, and Kobe TEN tubes give all my music a neutral sound that is never to bright and I never hear any sibilant. Now with Gold Lion tubes its a different story.

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Originally Posted by TheHills44060

I currently own the C220 preamp but I had both the C2200 and C2300 in my own system for a while so I got to dabble quite a bit. First I tried Electo-Harmonix because they were a friend's leftovers. Oddly I didn't hear much of a difference at all which made me paranoid because I thought I must be missing something. It was my first tube swap so naturally i was bummed out.

Next I tried some Ruby's that came from from a guitar amp and my first impression was that they hissed a lot more than I liked. Good crunch but I couldn't get over the background noise. Not sure if that was due to the fact that they were burned hot in the amp but nevertheless I was turned off.

I borrowed some Svetlana's which I really liked but in the end I ended up with Gold Lions. I love a warm sound but these tubes gave me the best of both worlds and kept me from diving into the overly warm pool which I tend to do sometimes.

EDIT: I never did get a chance to try Tung-Sol's which I have heard some favor in the Mac preamps.

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In my system the Gold Lion where leaning towards more of a lively presentation pared with NOS Telefunken than I cared for in my preamp. And Mullards/Telefunken where great until I put the NOS Valvo tubes in the amp. Those Valvos are great! I am now waiting a set of Tungsram NOS.

Raven...what tubes are in the McIntosh?

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Thanks Hills! I am at the point that sacrificing a smidge of detail for the overall sound is worth it. I really like my X1 preamp but it is definitely missing some emotion to the music. The Mac is probably not as detailed or transparent but it sounds like it will fit the bill. It has XLR, tone controls, tubes and great reviews and heritage. It was an Stereophile class A component for what ever that is worth. And its lovely worthless blue meters.

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Raven..are you still missing some mid range texture with the X1?

Raven...heres more for your consideration.

Aesthetix Calypso - Upscale Audio

Atma-Sphere MP-3 Mk II.3 with Phono & Teflon cap upgrade! - Upscale Audio

Cary Audio SLP 98L Formula One with HT Bypass! - Upscale Audio

Yes, the X1 is a little thin in the midrange. That Atma Sphere preamp looks like a great deal and it is enticing. I have looked a an MP-3 pre before. But it has no remote which is a deal breaker because I an too lazy to get up and change the volume after a long day at work. It also has only one pair of outputs and no sub out.

I am going to go over to my local Mac dealer later today and give a listen to some of their preamps to help me decide on the C2200.

Sounds good. You know, the right cable could do it for you. A nice reference cable, one that is above a hi fi-ish sounding cable....more a reference cable that has lots of texture and refined, strong in the mids could give you texture that is missing. In some cases its not that the gear doesnt have it, but the cable is not good enough to pass it.

BR, try to audition the BAT vk-42se pre. It's an outstanding piece, even though it is solid state. It absolutely changed my perspective on ss preamps. My A21 Attachment 9597 sounds unrecognizable. In a word it's terrific.

That CJ pre you mentioned is pretty average, imo.

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Originally Posted by bluetrain

BR, try to audition the BAT vk-42se pre. It's an outstanding piece, even though it is solid state. It absolutely changed my perspective on ss preamps. My A21 Attachment 9597 sounds unrecognizable. In a word it's terrific.

That CJ pre you mentioned is pretty average, imo.

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If I go with a BAT it will be tubed. Probably a VK-51se. I just listened to an ARC LS 27, an Atma-Spere MP3 and a Mac C220 all on an Ayre power amp Ayre evolution CD player Magnepan 3.7i's and 1.7's. The Mac sounded hifi while the other 2 were audiophile. The ARC was dark and tubey sounding but with great detail, air and transparency. The MP3 was the best sounding, it had more of a neutral tone almost SS but with tube warmth and a more full, textured midrange. Highs were probably a little rolled of as I brought a sibilant sounding CD and the MP-3 tamed it but on other passages the treble did not seem rolled or recessed. The Mac tamed it as well with use of the tone controls (i wish all gear had them as I could not tell the difference when the tone controls were defeated). The ARC did not help the Sibilant sound at all.

The MP3 is high on my list but the freaking remote control option is $950. It has only 1 set of speaker outputs but you can add a second set for $75. Also the volume control is stepped and clunky. But the sound was truly amazing. The best preamp that I have heard. It actually sounded some what similar to my Pass X1 but with a more textured and lush midrange.

Tomorrow I am going back to my local shop and I am going to bring my preamp and DAC to compare to the MP3.

By the way, I was surprized at the dark tubey sound of the ARC. Most people say just the opposite about ARC gear. I could live with the ARC but it was out classed by the lower priced Atma Sphere.

If any one is interested the 3.7i's sounded great. They have a slightly warmer darker sound than the 1.7's with more detail and a much smoother sound.

Raven...that's good news! The ARC may have had darker sounding tubes. They usually have a more lively open sound.

So the MAc was hifi sounding? When was production of tha amp? Man tha Atmasphere would be a great statement piece of gear! I hope it works out for you....man I don't think I could ever live with a SS amp again. I mean Last time I was at Peabodys house, his system was sounding amazing....but man you gotta have that tube texture.

Atma-Sphere music systems, inc.

Frenchmon, the ARC had stock tubes. I have to say that I was not impressed with the Ayre power amp. It did not have the musicality or bass slam of my Pass.

The amp was an $8000 VX-5 and it was way out classed by the Pass in every way.

Ayre Acoustics VX-5

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Raven...that's good news! The ARC may have had darker sounding tubes. They usually have a more lively open sound.

So the MAc was hifi sounding? When was production of tha amp? Man tha Atmasphere would be a great statement piece of gear! I hope it works out for you....man I don't think I could ever live with a SS amp again. I mean Last time I was at Peabodys house, his system was sounding amazing....but man you gotta have that tube texture.

Atma-Sphere music systems, inc.

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Frenchy Mr. P's amp is SS or isn't that what you meant. You said you don't think you could live with SS amp and then you said his system sounded amazing.

I'm not familiar with Atma-Sphere but $950 for a remote is insane.

Bluetrain, you found the CJ ET-3se ordinary? In what way? Every review and person that I have corresponded with feel that it is an outstanding preamp. What don't you like about it?

Thanks,

Larry

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Frenchmon, the ARC had stock tubes. I have to say that I was not impressed with the Ayre power amp. It did not have the musicality or bass slam of my Pass.

The amp was an $8000 VX-5 and it was way out classed by the Pass in every way.

Ayre Acoustics VX-5

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I am interest by your impression of Ayre VX-5 since Ayre would be one of very few brands I would ever consider next to Pass Labs. Your impression make me more content with my X150.5.

I was also interest in you preamp comparison. Since I value air & transparency higher above "texture" the ARC LS27 might be my choice of those you auditioned. I have an LS9 which, of course, is solid state: if I were disposed to go for a tube pre I might consider an LS16 or LS17 since the the '27 would be 'way out of my range.

Regarding the original topic I wouldn't mind hearing the MAC but there are probably better sounding preamps for money -- though the C220 has tone controls, phono, and balance outputs. I'd probably be happiest, though, with a Pass Labs for that kind of money, though I'm I kind spring that at the this time. BTW, though it has balanced outputs, the MAC isn't a "fully differential" design.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

Frenchy Mr. P's amp is SS or isn't that what you meant. You said you don't think you could live with SS amp and then you said his system sounded amazing.

I'm not familiar with Atma-Sphere but $950 for a remote is insane.

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Hi Jack!

Yes Peabodys system was clicking and sounding great, but in my opinion....the tube texture in the mids is missing and just the overall tube presence and all that comes with that are not heard.. I mean don't get me wrong, its a out standing amp and high end to the max, and refined of a sound as can be....transparent, and very well balance from top to bottom....but there's no overall tube presence. So its more of a personal thing...a preference thing.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Bluetrain, you found the CJ ET-3se ordinary? In what way? Every review and person that I have corresponded with feel that it is an outstanding preamp. What don't you like about it?

Thanks,

Larry

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I think Peabody had the CJ CT5 and it was a nice preamp...I though it was to syrupy, but I also think a change of tubes would have taken much of that away. But I don't find that preamp ordinary in the least.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

I am interest by your impression of Ayre VX-5 since Ayre would be one of very few brands I would ever consider next to Pass Labs. Your impression make me more content with my X150.5.

I was also interest in you preamp comparison. Since I value air & transparency higher above "texture" the ARC LS27 might be my choice of those you auditioned. I have an LS9 which, of course, is solid state: if I were disposed to go for a tube pre I might consider an LS16 or LS17 since the the '27 would be 'way out of my range.

Regarding the original topic I wouldn't mind hearing the MAC but there are probably better sounding preamps for money -- though the C220 has tone controls, phono, and balance outputs. I'd probably be happiest, though, with a Pass Labs for that kind of money, though I'm I kind spring that at the this time. BTW, though it has balanced outputs, the MAC isn't a "fully differential" design.

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Feanor..a buddy of mine here in St. Louis has the LS16 and LS17 and both have lots of air & transparency!

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Feanor..a buddy of mine here in St. Louis has the LS16 and LS17 and both have lots of air & transparency!

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Regarding these two, it's good to know other people's experience. If I'd had the cash I'd got one of those instead of the LS9 but they were both over twice what I paid for it.

I would like to know how the ARC LS 26 compares to the LS 27. You see the 26 on audiogon frequently. I still would also like to hear a BAT. While I would love to have the MP-3, the extra $950 for a remote is probably a deal breaker for me. Also the stepped volume control does not allow for fine volume control. I talked to the guys at Atma Sphere and it took them 2 years of R&D to develop the motorized control which is just now being offered as an option.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Hi Jack!

Yes Peabodys system was clicking and sounding great, but in my opinion....the tube texture in the mids is missing and just the overall tube presence and all that comes with that are not heard.. I mean don't get me wrong, its a out standing amp and high end to the max, and refined of a sound as can be....transparent, and very well balance from top to bottom....but there's no overall tube presence. So its more of a personal thing...a preference thing.

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I thought that was where you were going with your comment and didn't want anyone to misread you. I'd like to see Peabody bring home an LS27 or even a Ref 5SE and see how he likes it.