Japanese Audio???

[Ajani]

Look in my gallery and of the three systems, you find planars in how many? The only brands where I own more than one of their product is Pioneer and VPI: I have a single player CD (on the shelf) and have a changer and have both a VPI RCM and turntable. Other than that, my systems are made up of different brands in each system with no overlap in any other system. I don't think you're a shill, but I confess that there is no other poster here or on any other website who has your dogged consistency. While there is certainly nothing at all wrong with enthusiasm, I agree that if you purport to be an objective reviewer, you need to expand that enthusiasm a bit.

What is a good $2000 speaker? AN
What is a good $80,000 speaker AN
What is a good DAC? AN
What is a good amplifier? AN
What is a good turntable? AN
What is a good cartridge? AN
What is a good speaker cable? AN

rw

Seconded.... The concept that one brand is the best in every category is perplexing (to say the least).... Even die-hard Naim fans, will often prefer speakers or cables from other brands....

[Feanor]

... Feaner and E-Stat won't because for them there is NOTHING ELSE except panels - NOTHING. Feaner is obviously a shill for Magnepan correct - after all he recommends them for people seeking rock - so he is either completely deaf or is on their payroll right?

...

This is factually untrue. I always qualify Magneplanar recommendations by saying they are best suited to acoustic music, and I also mention positioning restrictions.

I have mentioned that Magneplanars can be used with particular subwoofer arrangements to deliver adequate rock sound, but I never recommended them for gut-punch music.

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

[Ajani]

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

Problem is that MANY audiophiles suffer from that same type of arrogance & self-delusion... Which is why there are so many never-ending quarrels about brand and technology superiority on HiFi sites...

I can't just prefer the sound of Solid State to Tubes... it has to be that SS is Technically Superior...

I can't just prefer the sound of Vinyl to CD.... It must be that Vinyl is more like real music than digital....

I can't just prefer the sound of Planars to Box Speakers.... It must be that removing the box, results in the sound no longer being colored...

I can't just prefer the sound or cost of headphones.... It must be that anyone who buys traditional speakers is a fool for spending that much, when I could have achieved better sound for a tenth of the price....

In 10 years on this site, I still see the exact same quarrels and same type of quarrels... Whether it was Flo talking about the superiority of his Apogees or Peruvian claiming that PSB speakers were better than anything else for about double the price, the same failure to comprehend that we all have different tastes and sonic priorities is apparent... There is no best brand in HiFi... There is only the brand you like the best.... And you don't need to prove to anyone else that your brand is better than theirs... If I like Marantz or any other Japanese Brand, then who cares whether other persons on this forum think that European or American brands are better or are SOTA???

We can choose to spend our time fighting about what brands are better, like children on the playground debating whether Batman is more awesome than Spiderman, or we can accept that we all have different tastes and move on...

[Feanor]

...

We can choose to spend our time fighting about what brands are better, like children on the playground debating whether Batman is more awesome than Spiderman ...

But this is much of the fun, is it not?

[GMichael]

If one amp uses the filet mignon of caps and the other is using the big mac of caps - - then chances are one of them will sound better. And then there is different but generally equal.

.

And there goes my diet! Suddenly all I can think of is a good steak (and a crappy burger) either would be fine about now.

[RGA]

Seconded.... The concept that one brand is the best in every category is perplexing (to say the least).... Even die-hard Naim fans, will often prefer speakers or cables from other brands....

First E-Stat should know better and so should several other attackers. E-Stat knows for example that his "one maker" attack is a lie.

AN Speakers are in fact Snell Loudspeakers - the AN E is a Snell Type E. How exactly is that "one make?" Explain it to me. Linn, Rega, Naim etc all design their own stuff and I don't think any of these is remotely in the same class as Audio Note simply because contrary to popular opinion I agree that being a jack of all trades is very tough and very expensive. And incidentally, Rega, Naim and Linn all make good products - Linn makes nice speakers for the price, so does Rega - have not heard Naim - they all make nice amps in their price ranges. None of them go to cost no object lengths except Linn and they only do it with their source. It's simply NOT the same kind of company.

Take the DAC - they went and hired Michael Kerster the head designer at Sonic Frontiers who in their hayday were arguably making the best digital on the planet. He helped in the design of the zero-times oversampling design - that is not a 100% in house design anymore if you go out and hire someone from another company. Turntables are improved versions of Systemdek. They didn't design Systemdek now did they - Systemdek did. Audio Note basically tweaked it rewired them - upgraded the motors - created a two and now a three motor version of them but that's different than designing the whole thing from scratch.

So when I recommend AN it is like recommending

What is a good $2000 speaker? AN (SNELL)
What is a good $80,000 speaker AN (SNELL)
What is a good DAC? AN (AN/SF)
What is a good amplifier? AN (AN) and incidentally I don't recommend them as often as I recommend other amps - and I will put $10,000 on this fact - bring it on.
What is a good turntable? AN (SystemDek IIX)
What is a good cartridge? AN (Goldring)
What is a good speaker cable? AN ( I don't recommend cables)

So E-Stat is reading things that are not there - I recommend SET - he Reads AN, I recommend High Efficiency speaker - he reads AN.

I have recommended speakers from Klipsch, Trenner and Friedl, Tannoy (not mine or anything resembling mine), KingSound, Sonist, Studio Electric, Gallo, Usher, Sillbatone, Wilson, Wharfedale, ProAc, Harbeth, Acapella, Vandersteen, Gershman Acoustics, Reference 3a, Energy, Quad, Sonus Faber, Meridian etc. So E-Stat's Hyperbole aside there are plenty of loudspeakers alone that I like.

I have not recommended AN cables, and rarely do I recommend a specific amp from them unless the OP is particularly looking at a Single Ended amp in the given price points and wants to accumulate an "audition list" - and AN is one of if not the biggest selling SET maker on the planet so I hardly think it's out of the question to bring them up.

I happen to share Peter's belief about how audio should be approached - because it is one of the few that is based in any sort of logic in a field that is woefully lacking it.

The best system that I have ever heard happens to be an all Audio Note system. So it stands to reason that I would therefore recommend them. I would hope that if I were asking - people would be recommending their favorites to me - and not just list a bunch of different stuff in the hopes to be seen as objective. There is a difference between being objective and pretending to be objective. I don't have time for posers.

[RGA]

This is factually untrue. I always qualify Magneplanar recommendations by saying they are best suited to acoustic music, and I also mention positioning restrictions.

I have mentioned that Magneplanars can be used with particular subwoofer arrangements to deliver adequate rock sound, but I never recommended them for gut-punch music.

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

Yes but then people who get insulted usually are the people that have never bothered to listen to any of it. Rather than get all defensive about it why not hear a few elite samples of it for a period of time. But I get it the guys on AA several years back got on me for not trying such systems and I ate my words and sold my speakers.

[RGA]

This is factually untrue. I always qualify Magneplanar recommendations by saying they are best suited to acoustic music, and I also mention positioning restrictions.

I have mentioned that Magneplanars can be used with particular subwoofer arrangements to deliver adequate rock sound, but I never recommended them for gut-punch music.

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

I Have never said it is the best of the best - though I have said that they have made the best system that I have heard - that's not the same thing is it. Or is English not your first language? If this is the case I am sorry.

I use my OTO amp as an example. As a reviewer and I have reviewed it - I note several drawbacks. Hi-Fi choice gave the amp 4/5 and I agree with the assessment because such products are simply too finicky for a mass audience. Sure they said it sounded the best in their shootout but it is woefully hampered by a lack of power, no features, heat and I would have added good but not great build quality. So as good as it sounds in the right system I would still agree that it would be a 4/5 or a class B product because I view it as an idiosyncratic product. I don't recommend the preamps - they simply don't work with much stuff - I chose a Rotel Preamp for review purposes because it's quite neutral for the money and is friendly over a wide spectrum of power amps - the AN M1 IMO sounds miles and miles better - but it only sounds miles and miles better with select power amps. So you don't see me suggest people buy an M3 too often - sometimes but not often.

You do NOT see me recommending the OTO very often - I have probably recommended people look into SS Odyssey amps more and certainly I have recommended the SS Sugden more than any Audio Note amps - I do not own a Sugden and while I did own a Sugden I usually recommended the one I didn't own. Why? Because the A21a would be a better fit with most people's speakers.

I recommend SET/HE a lot however - no question about it but that does not contain the words Audio Note - you simply "assume" and "read into" it that I must be talking about AN. I can't help it that you read things into posts. Tri, Antique Sound Labs, Trends Audio, aesthetix, KR Audio, Grant Fidelity, Cary, Lamm, Jolida, Mystere, Rogue Audio among others are tube amps that I like and could recommend and have recommended.

I think the single biggest thing I recommend from Audio Note and I am pretty sure if you look you will agree are the loudspeakers and the idea of the complete system be considered at the outset is the best approach. But over the last couple of years more and more speakers have been added to my recommendation list.

You will be surprised at which ones I recommend most strenuously at CES. But the $7600 AN E/SPE HE at $7600 IMO hung in with everything at the show and bettered most of them. Can you really blame me if I audition $20k, $30k, $40k and $375K loudspeakers and I say umm yeah but the $7,600 speaker is easily in that same class and betters most of them in actually just sounding like the instrument is in the room and not a woofer in a box or a string in the air vibrating.

So if you were in my shoes you'd want to be recommending that to people as well. And still I mention the Tannoy Kensington, King Sound's Prince II and Gallo and Studio Electric and Teresonic - if you have not seen me recommending them much you will see them more often in my recommendations from this point forward.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat knows for example that his "one maker" attack is a lie.

A lie? Ever looked at the AN website under the products link?

AN Speakers are in fact Snell Loudspeakers

For some reason, the "E" is not to be found here. I understand the original lineage, but don't recall Snell ever adding $70k worth of silver to their speakers.

The best system that I have ever heard happens to be an all Audio Note system.

Now, there's a surprise!

rw

[Feanor]

I Have never said it is the best of the best - though I have said that they have made the best system that I have heard - that's not the same thing is it. Or is English not your first language? If this is the case I am sorry.

...

Calm down, Rich. "Best of the best" and "best system that I have heard" sound pretty close to me. Pardon my broken English.

Admittedly I'm looking forward to reading your future reviews.

[Ajani]

The best system that I have ever heard happens to be an all Audio Note system. So it stands to reason that I would therefore recommend them. I would hope that if I were asking - people would be recommending their favorites to me - and not just list a bunch of different stuff in the hopes to be seen as objective. There is a difference between being objective and pretending to be objective. I don't have time for posers.

Such a shame you have no concept of what being objective is....

A poser is the typical pompous audiophile, who assumes that his personal preference is the best or most like the live event... A poser is is the typical pompous audiophile who claims to have more refined tastes than others... A poser is the typical pompous audiophile who feels justified in his purchases by claiming that reviewers with 40 years of experience have now started recommending a brand he's been loving for years...

Objective is understanding that we all have different sonic preferences... Objective is being willing to suggest a varied selection of products and allowing the other person to make up their own mind, rather than trying to convince them that your own preferences are the best...

Anyway, I have no more energy to waste on a futile discussion... So go back to arguing about the same old crap that you've been arguing for years on this site.... I'll go listen to some tunes....

[Feanor]

...
For some reason, the "E" is not to be found here. I understand the original lineage, but don't recall Snell ever adding $70k worth of silver to their speakers.
...

Neither does AN; that's just how much they charge!

[E-Stat]

Neither does AN; that's just how much they charge!

They charge serious change for the Sogon. The meter long Harmonic Technology Magic power cords I use with the VTL amps employ 10 gauge 6N silver and ran merely $1800 for the pair.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, you like Vandersteen? Klipsch?

[RGA]

[QUOTE=E-Stat] A lie? Ever looked at the AN website under the products link? /QUOTE]

Are you serious - you seemed to be to be someone who studied a bit of audio history. Peter Q was Snell's distributor in the late 70s and was a huge fan of the original Type A, E, J and K. All of them are Peter Snell designs. Peter died in his 30's and Kevin Voecks - the speaker company killer, came in and changed the designs. Peter felt the new designs sounded like caca - (he was right they do) and so he purchased the rights to the original models, bought the entire world stock of Snell speakers as well as all of the unfinished cabinets. http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...ers_info.shtml

There were changes to the speakers - Audio Note changed the port to allow for corner loading and removed the rear firing tweeter. They changed all of the internals drivers.

For some reason, the "E" is not to be found here.

The current Snell is name only - there is zero about current Snell that Peter Snell intended - Current Snell is owned by Denon and sounds like it.

I understand the original lineage, but don't recall Snell ever adding $70k worth of silver to their speakers.

And it may explain why the AN versions a helluva lot better (better parts again yield better sound not just in amplifiers and cd players.. Snell also didn't use the cabinetry, drivers, capacitors or port design. Peter Snell put Snell on the map and back in the day they were very highly regarded - a lot of that has crumbled sadly since his death and beancounters taking over the name and selling appearance.

And the entry level prices are in line with inflation on the entry level side of things. And yes they get expensive but you can get them for $2500. That's the point you the customer get to choose how far you want to take the design. How much is the A1? LOL - be serious.

[RGA]

They charge serious change for the Sogon. The meter long Harmonic Technology Magic power cords I use with the VTL amps employ 10 gauge 6N silver and ran merely $1800 for the pair.

rw

Have you examined why the difference in price is there - and when did you actually audition the Sogon in your system? Or is this all based on zero actual experience?

[RGA]

RGA, you like Vandersteen? Klipsch?

Yes Vandersteen brought their flagship $45,000 models and they sounded very good and quite unlike the 2ce which I don't care for. Klipsch's Reference series speakers are quite a nice bargain at the budget end of the spectrum - it's too bad they sell in crappy stores with receivers and bad rooms. Fortunately I got to hear them with a good tube amps and a nice front end - they sounded better than several much more expensive Paradigm and B&W's. With price in mind they can sound quite nice. And the K-Horn despite some issues is a great loudspeaker regardless of era.

[RGA]

Anyway I don't really want to go down this road again - Japanese make good gear - CES was evidence to that. Good luck living life forming opinions on stuff you've never actually auditioned. But hey it's working for you so enjoy.

[E-Stat]

Are you serious

Quite serious. Did you follow my link? There you will find:

7 cartridges
6 MC transformers
5 tonearms
3 turntables
3 CD players
2 CD transports
9 DACs
11 preamps
8 integrated amps
19 power amps
6 speakers with endless options and
20 cables!

Most of which are designated AN dash something. So these are NOT AN products? Huh?

The current Snell is name only

Now they are sold under the AN name. You seem to have difficulty associating the products found on the AN website to be...AN products today.

Have you examined why the difference in price is there

I've already answered that. It is all about Ag with their foil caps, voice coils and cable. Hemp cones optional. I haven't made any observations about their sound.


rw

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, just keeping up with the posts and trying to read objectively, it seems if one changes the drivers, crossovers and cabinet, there isn't a lot left to resemble the original speaker. Especially in sound. I've only heard one pair of Snell, about 15 years ago. Probably not true Snell. I remember they did sound better than the Paradigm at the time. So I'm thinking they must not be so bad. I also wonder where Snell is today in the market. None of the Denon dealers carry them around here. Are they still in business?

It's a shame Vandersteen has to go to $45k to make a speaker that sounds good. I'll have to take your word for that. I'll also try to keep an open mind that some day I might hear a Klipsch I can tolerate. It's not only the sound but after having a pair of their towers in my home for an audition really made me lose respect for Klipsch. I believe they were in the RF line, a tower with two 10's and a horn. Not only did they completely go into distortion with good clean amplification at high volume, a look into the large port revealed minimal internal bracing at best, cheap cap for crossover and almost no damping material. Hopefully, this treatment doesn't stretch across all their models.

[Ajani]

RGA, just keeping up with the posts and trying to read objectively, it seems if one changes the drivers, crossovers and cabinet, there isn't a lot left to resemble the original speaker. Especially in sound. I've only heard one pair of Snell, about 15 years ago. Probably not true Snell. I remember they did sound better than the Paradigm at the time. So I'm thinking they must not be so bad. I also wonder where Snell is today in the market. None of the Denon dealers carry them around here. Are they still in business?

It's a shame Vandersteen has to go to $45k to make a speaker that sounds good. I'll have to take your word for that. I'll also try to keep an open mind that some day I might hear a Klipsch I can tolerate. It's not only the sound but after having a pair of their towers in my home for an audition really made me lose respect for Klipsch. I believe they were in the RF line, a tower with two 10's and a horn. Not only did they completely go into distortion with good clean amplification at high volume, a look into the large port revealed minimal internal bracing at best, cheap cap for crossover and almost no damping material. Hopefully, this treatment doesn't stretch across all their models.

That's actually exactly what I thought... After having the design for over 30 years and making all those changes, they should be all Audio Note and not Snell by this point...

[RGA]

Quite serious. Did you follow my link? There you will find:

7 cartridges
6 MC transformers
5 tonearms
3 turntables
3 CD players
2 CD transports
9 DACs
11 preamps
8 integrated amps
19 power amps
6 speakers with endless options and
20 cables!

Most of which are designated AN dash something. So these are NOT AN products? Huh?


Now they are sold under the AN name. You seem to have difficulty associating the products found on the AN website to be...AN products today.


I've already answered that. It is all about Ag with their foil caps, voice coils and cable. Hemp cones optional. I haven't made any observations about their sound.


rw

The name on the front of the box means little - what counts is what is inside the box - Audio Note's transport is the Philips Pro - piles of companies use the Philips Pro - And some companies will make significant changes to the inside - most only make changes to the outside and the prices are high on all of them. See Lexicon.

Your contention is that Audio Note is poor because no company could be great at everything.

Unfortunately, your assessment is not supported. Your contention is supported for all other single make companies who make the entire chain - and I am not disagreeing with ou on the point. For instance you can make the case that Linn's sources are very highly regarded while their speakers and amps are considerably lesser.

But can you honestly "objectively" say that in the review press that there is something from Audio Note that is considered a "weak link?" Even if you don't like the sound yourself.

What I want you to do is just look at it from a Press perspective ONLY - just taking a massive sampling of the review press from all around the world online and in print - you can see that Rega is noted more for turntables than speakers, Linn sources more than amps, Naim - more for amps than anything else.

Putting myself in a bystander perspective - I have read many reviews that consider the LP 12 to be one of the best turntables in it class ( I personally may feel something else is better but I acknowledge the fact that the review press lauds the LP12 for being at a certain "elite" level in their price class at least - Would you agree that the LP12 has been very highly regarded around the world in the review press? Yes - of course RGA.

However, never ever have I read that about their amps, or speakers being in some kind of "elite" class of amplifiers or loudspeakers. One tunrtable and one CD player and that's it. Two products in their entire history in the review press have been widely considered around the world as "elite" products. There may be a couple more but I think it's fair to say that in general my assessment of Linn - and taking my ears completely out of it - the CD Sondek 12 (or whatever it was called) and Linn LP12 have widely been viewed as "elite" level products. Regardless of my opinion on them - I bow to the fact that they are considered elite products.

We can do the same for Rega and several other companies and find the same kinds of thing - one or two products here or there that get that attention.

Now keeping that same "what I hear" out of it - and looking objectively at Audio Note's flagship products does the same argument we made about Linn hold true?

If we look at the sources - Dac 5 and either version of the TT3 turntable, tone arm, and cartridge? I think they are widely considered to be in an "elite" level

Amplfiers? Pretty sure that the M3 on up Ongaku, P4 and Gaku-On's have been widely recognized as being at an "elite level"

Speakers? Yup - maybe more so than anything else

Seems to me like something in each part of the audio chain has been widely acclaimed around the world to offer something at an Elite level - something you can't objectively state for Linn or Naim or Rega etc.

Again without auditioning or even putting your ears into the equation and ONLY looking at the objective sampling of reviews.

I don't think there is any other case to be made - none of that means you won't like a Bat amp Wilson Maxx 3s and a PrimLuna source better. Some no doubt will. I'm just looking at the case from a review print perspective and the issue that one company can't make an entire chain of elite level stuff.

[RGA]

That's actually exactly what I thought... After having the design for over 30 years and making all those changes, they should be all Audio Note and not Snell by this point...

It's all how you look at it - yes the speakers are now Audio Note - they bought the rights and Peter Snell is dead. But as with most speaker designs someone copied something from someone and then improved it to make it better. The AN E box design was created by Acoustics engineer and opera house designer L.L. Beranek in 1940. Snell took it and created the Wave Launch approach. Audio Note took the Snell and supercharged it. The cabinet dimensions are exactly the same as the L.L. Beranek model. The Snell wave launch and matching system has been kept. But AN has been trying to make it better and better to extract more and more of what is possible from that cabinet. But that is NOT a single manufacturer approach - they do a lot of it but they get help from the engineers and experts past and present. You could say that the AN E is an Snell/Audio Note co-effort - but it would be wrong not to have Snell or LL Beranek as the major parts of the deal - without them there would not be an AN E. And if Snell lived he may have made much better speakers than the AN E. Peter Qvortrup said that he believes had Snell lived he would have made better loudspeakers that what Audio Note is capable of doing. So I think you can't just write off Peter Snell.

[RGA]

Fred Crowder of Dagogo has his Audio Note show report up. Unlike virtually any other reviewer out there - Fred has deep pockets - he can pretty much afford all of our speakers combined. He currently owns the $192,000 Acapella Triolon Excalibur loudspeakers and has been going to CES and other shows for over 20 years. He has similar though not identical taste to me. Now, like I said - Audio Note is not "THE BEST" because I simply don't think you can say that about any gear. What you can say is what is the best to you.

Fred has heard it all. Fred would choose the Acapella speakers over Audio Note speakers. I have heard Acapella's Violoncello II and frankly if the AN E is going to lose to something there is no shame at all losing to the Violoncello II ($80k) let alone the Triolon Excalibur. Fred has a massive listening space too which makes it a moot point anyway because even though he loves the sound of the AN E it's just not going to work in large rooms - no matter how good it is.

His show report http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=694

His Bio and equipment listing http://www.dagogo.com/View-Staff.asp?hStaff=5

There are few out there with his pockets and knowledge.

[E-Stat]

what counts is what is inside the box

And who is calling who a liar by way of observation!

Your contention is that Audio Note is poor because no company could be great at everything.

When did I say that? You need to expand your horizons past one company if you wanted to be taken seriously as a reviewer.

Unfortunately, your assessment is not supported.

What assessment is that?

But can you honestly "objectively" say that in the review press that there is something from Audio Note that is considered a "weak link?" Even if you don't like the sound yourself.

I'll repeat for the umpteenth time. I think you should branch out beyond the work of a single company. You might be surprised what you find.

What I want you to do is just look at it from a Press perspective ONLY...

I totally lost you after this. It seems you can't take a crap in the morning without talking about AN.

rw