-
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
There's no way that I can and the same goes for you.
Very good reason to not speculate. The performance envelope of the Raptor is well known.
rw
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by frahengeo
Don't know how much confidence you have in Wikipedia, but according to the site it was originally American:
Yes, Saul Marantz was an American from New York state and developed some famous components in the 7C preamp, 8b and Model 9 amplifiers and the 10b tuner. He sold his company to a Japanese firm in the 60s. He later partnered with Jon Dahlquist in the original DQ-10 speaker in the 70s.
rw
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
i think with the issue of build quality one has to separate the internal from the external - plenty of amplifiers - and other gear - add a lot od superfluous weight to the case which has absolutely nothing to do with the internal parts of an amplifier - McIntosh makes a heavier amplifier than a given Audio Note but in terms of the quality of parts inside - it's not even remotely a close contest - Audio Note uses more expensive exotic materials from soldering materials to wiring, to transformers etc.
....
I am not really for the idea of buying an AN dac and sticking into a Krell Dynaudio system - it's just not what AN had in mind and frankly I don't think one can actually "hear" what AN sounds like in a system like that - that's not a knock on Dynaudio or Krell - it's reality - They were never designed with those kinds of speakers or amplifiers in mind and in some cases there is an audible mismatch of input impedances especially if the DAC was the previous generation to the new filterless varieties.
....
RGA, your relentless shilining for AN is getting old. As an aspiring semi-pro reviewer you at least ought to pretend to be objective.
"Impedance mismatches" are avoided by proper design, that is, high input impedance + low output impedance. Period.
-
Being objective is merely telling it like you hear it. As for McIntosh - I have looked inside compared to what's inside a competing AN unit - Seems objective to me - maybe you would agree if A) you ever bothered to listen and B you ever bothered to look. Assuming I am not being objective when I have heard both, seen both, and made an assessment. It seems like YOU are not being objective - just attacking without any actual experience.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Being objective is merely telling it like you hear it. As for McIntosh - I have looked inside compared to what's inside a competing AN unit - Seems objective to me - maybe you would agree if A) you ever bothered to listen and B you ever bothered to look. Assuming I am not being objective when I have heard both, seen both, and made an assessment. It seems like YOU are not being objective - just attacking without any actual experience.
Yeah well, and to what extent is your judgement as the superiority of the AN's internal components anything more than subjective? Because a capacitor says "Audio Note" on it, does that make it better? Last I heard you were not an electrical engineer.
-
I have a 1.1x which does include the trademark "no filter" technology. I bought it sometime before they switched distributors and started offering the things as a kit. I know people are into that but it really took the resale value out of it. For some reason buyers like things that come from a manufacturer opposed to an individual. Although mine was not a kit it still seems to have that association.
I also used the Ead/AN combo for the front end of my CJ for a long time. Until the transport died. Then in search of a good transport my ears fell pray to the T+A. The T+A seemed to have a lot of the naturalism of the AN but was much better in resolution and the T+A had more snap to things. I am a bit unsure any more to use the word "dynamic" as the reviewers seem to have splintered dynamics into several types. As the 1.1x is AN's entry DAC I'd sure love to hear one of the better ones because the 1.1x is excellent. Talking about it reminds me I have never had it hooked to the CT6, sounds like something to do in time.
-
Feaner one does not need to be an electrical engineer to read what electrical engineers have to say about the matter.
"RGA
As a non Audio Note owner I have often been one of your strongest defenders. I have tested many capacitors myself and AN not being one of them and can not believe the difference in sound from one to another. AN said all along high quality foil sound the best and this is being proven time and time again. I have found AN to be unique as a company, no other audio company talks at extensive detail my language and the only one the should matter parts quality.
On the McIntosh website I seen tons of pretty pictures of blue lights but can find very little about quality of parts? On the AN site Peter will go into great (and maybe boring to some) detail of parts quality and how everything is made. I have never seen such detail of quality of parts.
On the tempo Electric website
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm
"Formerly made by Jensen in Denmark and relabeled for Audio Note, current production is fabricated in England by another firm. In 2008, their dielectric was changed from paper-in-oil to mylar-in-oil. The silvers were out of our price range and we just overlooked the coppers. Peter Qvortrup of AN (UK) has been kind enough to offer loaners for the next round".
Peter will also allow his capacitors to be tested against the very best money no object caps in the world. He either makes or buys some of the best. This is not normal and I can not understand how the new Mac owner (corporate Clarion) could ever do something like this? As a corporation they must have much more focus on the bottom line. There is also no proof that using the best parts improves the bottom line in fact no doubt does the opposite drives up cost while reducing sales because of that cost.
So in my mind ONLY a private company like AN could even build high quality sound. This is much of what was the vintage by the way meaning Saul Marantz, Avery Fisher (and McIntosh) etc when they owned their companies they could (shoud they want to) go crazy on quality with little financial gain. As a public company one can not do this as a CEO or one gets fired!
I can not afford any new AN gear but am very glad their is someone doing this. I reference the AN site all the time about what matters and to try and understand audio."
And from an electrical engineer and audio review expert http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/blac...te_Feb2003.pdf
And another engineer http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
And that's just the capacitors - of course Audio Note actually bothers to listen to them all try them all and use the best ones. Most companies have a purchasing agent select "whatever" capacitor meets a spec sheet value - because after all "it all sounds the same" - stick a nice blue light on the front and put 70lbs of sheet metal around the blue light and the people will line-up. They take no interest in the parts quality - and interestingly if all the parts all sound the same and they can buy based off the spec sheet - you as a consumer may as well do the same.
-
Interesting. My tech just finished my Golden Tube which had infamously bad capacitors in it. I spent top dollar to put Wima and other TOTL caps into it, and the result is glorious.
How these changes sound is subjective for the listener, however both my tech and I agreed that more detail was evident. Sound aside, I'm not sure how a TOTL machine can be sold using anything less than the best capacitors. Anything less will most likely fail earlier. We could be talking about 15 - 20 years, but none the less...
From what I can see, Audio Note assumes the utmost intelligence from their customer, and as a result, reveal and discuss accordingly. However, I don't think this takes away from Mac. I'm sure if one has the right questions, they could be answered. Of course, you would have to ask...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Feaner one does not need to be an electrical engineer to read what electrical engineers have to say about the matter.
"RGA
As a non Audio Note owner I have often been one of your strongest defenders. I have tested many capacitors myself and AN not being one of them and can not believe the difference in sound from one to another. AN said all along high quality foil sound the best and this is being proven time and time again. I have found AN to be unique as a company, no other audio company talks at extensive detail my language and the only one the should matter parts quality.
On the McIntosh website I seen tons of pretty pictures of blue lights but can find very little about quality of parts? On the AN site Peter will go into great (and maybe boring to some) detail of parts quality and how everything is made. I have never seen such detail of quality of parts.
On the tempo Electric website
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm
"Formerly made by Jensen in Denmark and relabeled for Audio Note, current production is fabricated in England by another firm. In 2008, their dielectric was changed from paper-in-oil to mylar-in-oil. The silvers were out of our price range and we just overlooked the coppers. Peter Qvortrup of AN (UK) has been kind enough to offer loaners for the next round".
Peter will also allow his capacitors to be tested against the very best money no object caps in the world. He either makes or buys some of the best. This is not normal and I can not understand how the new Mac owner (corporate Clarion) could ever do something like this? As a corporation they must have much more focus on the bottom line. There is also no proof that using the best parts improves the bottom line in fact no doubt does the opposite drives up cost while reducing sales because of that cost.
So in my mind ONLY a private company like AN could even build high quality sound. This is much of what was the vintage by the way meaning Saul Marantz, Avery Fisher (and McIntosh) etc when they owned their companies they could (shoud they want to) go crazy on quality with little financial gain. As a public company one can not do this as a CEO or one gets fired!
I can not afford any new AN gear but am very glad their is someone doing this. I reference the AN site all the time about what matters and to try and understand audio."
And from an electrical engineer and audio review expert http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/blac...te_Feb2003.pdf
And another engineer http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
And that's just the capacitors - of course Audio Note actually bothers to listen to them all try them all and use the best ones. Most companies have a purchasing agent select "whatever" capacitor meets a spec sheet value - because after all "it all sounds the same" - stick a nice blue light on the front and put 70lbs of sheet metal around the blue light and the people will line-up. They take no interest in the parts quality - and interestingly if all the parts all sound the same and they can buy based off the spec sheet - you as a consumer may as well do the same.
MOS, (more of same).
Testimonials! :rolleyes:
-
Hey Bill, I think we should try and hook up again. DAC and if you're willing, Golden Tube into your 1.6's...I'll email you.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Hey Bill, I think we should try and hook up again. DAC and if you're willing, Golden Tube into your 1.6's...I'll email you.
Sounds good, PC. :cornut:
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
On the McIntosh website I seen tons of pretty pictures of blue lights but can find very little about quality of parts?
What you need to do is tour their facility which I have done. They use a mix of state-of-the-art automated assembly surface mount components (where they make sense) along with good old fashioned hand assembly. While I confess that I am not one of their biggest fans, they are very passionate about the quality of the product. I will agree, however, that you do not find the most exotic capacitors as you would in products by some other companies like Audio Research, et. al.
I will echo Bill's comment that you seem to believe there is but one company on the planet worthy of mention. My experience suggests otherwise. There are dozens of leading edge companies who share the same passion as Peter Q. As for me, I find choosing components from a single company to be like inbred marriage - there is value to combining the efforts of the many rather than limiting to any one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
And that's just the capacitors - of course Audio Note actually bothers to listen to them all try them all and use the best ones. Most companies have a purchasing agent select "whatever" capacitor meets a spec sheet value
Perhaps *most* only in the sense of including the mass market companies. ALL leading edge audio manufacturers listen to the sonics of passive components and many have their own choices custom made.
rw
-
I'm surprised you didn't mention Manley Labs Ralph, being that you're a fan, great example. Ridiculous quality in their products. HiFi-Tommy has toured their factory, I'm jealous.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I'm surprised you didn't mention Manley Labs...
That's exactly why I didn't mention them. The good news today is there are countless exceptional firms and designers out there producing wonderful product. :)
rw
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
What you need to do is tour their facility which I have done. They use a mix of state-of-the-art automated assembly surface mount components (where they make sense) along with good old fashioned hand assembly. While I confess that I am not one of their biggest fans, they are very passionate about the quality of the product. I will agree, however, that you do not find the most exotic capacitors as you would in products by some other companies like Audio Research, et. al.
My problem with McIntosh is the general sound quality and general lack of focus. My belief is that they don't have a belief about sound quality. They make tubes - first chance they get they dump it for solid state - then when tubes become popular in North America - they bring back tubes. These are not decisions made by a philosophical view about sound - but "whatever will sell" and sticking sexy blue lights on the front to sell to male buyers who are "visually stimulated" is great marketing but little else. They make reasonably competent gear but that's about it.
Moreover, I find it puzzling that many people who will pay LARGE for interconnects and speaker cables will at the very same turn buy amplifiers and cd players and turntables without being at all interested in the internal parts of the items they're buying. McIntosh is on record for not being interested in the internal cables - they all sound the same. That view may have changed recently - the wind blew and they change with it. Audio Note was founded by a Metallurgical engineer so the internal wiring and soldering material and "parts" were always the priority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I will echo Bill's comment that you seem to believe there is but one company on the planet worthy of mention. My experience suggests otherwise. There are dozens of leading edge companies who share the same passion as Peter Q. As for me, I find choosing components from a single company to be like inbred marriage - there is value to combining the efforts of the many rather than limiting to any one.
There are "some" companies that are worthy of mention but few have the same passion as Peter Qvortrup. And you can walk into the rooms at CES and figure that out pretty fast who is passionate about music and who is passionate about making a buck. And some are passionate but unfortunately don't make particularly great stuff.
Audio Note is a mix of many companies - you should know this by now. They did not design everything and never claimed to and often hire away the best designers of other companies to create what they need. And besides that I don't see buying from one company to be a problem - if the system is "better" than a competitor's mix and match then who cares how you got there. I don't think there is anyone that does what Audio Note does to the level. I know of no other company that makes the entire chain that is in the top tier of equipment in each thing they make. Linn turntables yes, you might make the case for their CD 12 (I would not but even if I included it) everything else they make isn't up to that level? Shindo? maybe - have not heard it. Silbatone - no digital, Zanden possibly but not sure they make loudspeakers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Perhaps *most* only in the sense of including the mass market companies. ALL leading edge audio manufacturers listen to the sonics of passive components and many have their own choices custom made.
No they most certainly do not. The head engineer of McIntosh who was there for 25+ years didn't "listen" to internal cables - which is why they use the cheapest junky wiring going and then the customer is out spending $500 a meter on Kimber cable - it's just idiocy to spend all that money on an interconnect to then have it connected to total crap inside the amplifier and CD player. And most audiophiles are out there doing this exact same thing - look at the industry that is out there "FIXING" amplifiers and speakers - Oh you can fix that Magnepan by using a competent resister or "the first thing you should do is replace the B&W capacitors to get it to sound decent". Or You should upgrade the transformers, or replace the speaker's wiring. There is a whole industry around this. CLEARLY parts quality matter and very few makers seem interested.
It makes no sense whatsoever to buy some pricey interconnect and speaker cable that is made of completely different material and design than what is inside the amplifier and speakers (or source). It is whacked.
I take issue that I supposedly only like Audio Note. Unfortunately, or fortunately for them - they make systems and components from under a $100 to over half million. And I consider their "systems" and "components" in league with anything in their price points and often the reference to be beaten. There are terrific speakers that I would probably be "just as happy" with like the Trenner and Friedl RA Box - but it's $25,000 so how am I going to recommend it to the guy looking at speakers for $7,500?
There are plenty of companies though that have passion and ability - no question that there was some great stuff that impressed the hell out of me at CES and a few - very few - that genuinely seem interested in MUSIC and not demonstrating the usual suspects of audiophile recordings - which are usually garbage to play to the strengths of the system. Wikle some of them have different objectives that Peter has in the end result I found their perspective to be entirely valid and would create long term excellent sound. For me personally, CES was nice to FINALLY hear stuff that you could tell had passionate ears behind them and not selling watts, numbers and "in" designs. Unlike you - I don't feel that is remotely the case for most of them - who are selling price points and style in expensive boxes to make a buck.
My show report is coming very slowly but there is a LOT of stuff that I like - probably more than you do in fact and certainly more than Feaner - Panels or nothing guys or am I wrong?
It's interesting that I am blasted, usually only by panel guys, for being close minded and only liking Audio Note - and yet I probably would own over a dozen loudspeakers including a couple of panels - yet you guys insist on the outright silly notion that panels are more accurate and less coloured - perhaps only your glasses are coloured!
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Testimonials! :rolleyes:
So what do you want - the technical adviser for Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice and the founder of Monitor Audio is not good enough for you?
Maybe you are a little too dim to understand but if you have the best cut of beef from an organic fed cow and you have a great Chef make you a steak with the elite cut of beef - it does actually yield better results than a worm filled steroid fed McHamburger. Granted I may not be able to "prove" that the first 5 star burger from the master chef is better than a McHamburger in a completely objective way - so we must use our taste to determine that. Some people have better taste than others.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
So what do you want - the technical adviser for Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice and the founder of Monitor Audio is not good enough for you?
Maybe you are a little too dim to understand but if you have the best cut of beef from an organic fed cow and you have a great Chef make you a steak with the elite cut of beef - it does actually yield better results than a worm filled steroid fed McHamburger. Granted I may not be able to "prove" that the first 5 star burger from the master chef is better than a McHamburger in a completely objective way - so we must use our taste to determine that. Some people have better taste than others.
Fine, you can have the last word. :)
Incidentally I wasn't saying all capacitors sound the same -- in case you thought so.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Fine, you can have the last word. :)
Incidentally I wasn't saying all capacitors sound the same -- in case you thought so.
Then I don't get it. Do you truly believe there is nothing in audio that is "better and worse" and that everything is 100% a matter of taste. Sorry but I happen to believe there is stuff that is better than other stuff. If one amp uses the filet mignon of caps and the other is using the big mac of caps in their amps then I don't see why you had a problem with my first post on the subject. If something sounds different - then chances are one of them will sound better. And then there is different but generally equal.
I am wondering what "different" $1600 loudspeakers that you believe are the equal of the Maggie 1.6 - a box? No right? You chose the 1.6 therefore there is nothing made that is better for the money.
Mr. Close minded Audio Note guy found that gee I could see someone buying a Prince II loudspeaker over my speakers - I wouldn't but there was certainly a "different" but reasonable reason to go that route. Or eve the new Gallo 3.5 I could see, or Studio Electric or Usher or piles of others that I consider very formidable products.
The only people who are one note about all things audio - are panel owners - every single one - except the few like Art Dudley and several others who switched to ahem a box.
-
I don't care for taking sides or whatever, but I really do not think RGA is a shill.
Just too passionate about the AN products. I really need to hear them for myself, and have thought about acquiring one of their phono preamps for their simple design and quality components.
I think Japanese makes both horrible and excellent products, nothing in between that I can think of though...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
No they most certainly do not. The head engineer of McIntosh who was there for 25+ years didn't "listen" to internal cables
FWIW, I don't consider Mac to be a leading edge company. They are the Cadillac of the industry with all that implies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
My show report is coming very slowly but there is a LOT of stuff that I like - probably more than you do in fact and certainly more than Feaner - Panels or nothing guys or am I wrong?
Then why is it you ALWAYS talk about AN?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
It's interesting that I am blasted, usually only by panel guys, for being close minded and only liking Audio Note
It has nothing at all to do with choice of speakers. All you talk about ad nauseum is AN and no one could ever accuse you of brevity!
rw
-
AN comes up more from me due to a numbers game ONLY.
You don't ask why every speaker recommendation from Feaner is ALWAYS and only Magnepan.
You don't see that come up as much because they ONLY make loudspeakers.
Someone says they want a sub $1k speaker - so given the very many loudspeakers I have heard including the MG 12 and MMG I would recommend the AX Two, - but I also recommend several other loudspeakers. Someone is in the market for a CD player in the $3k range - sorry but I go with what I have heard and feel is the best I have heard - Sorry but that just so happens to be an Audio Note. Speakers - I value a speaker that can handle Nightwish at loud levels but also sound absolutely spot on right with acoustic music, and vocals. Happens to include Audio Note - but I recommend other speakers WITH Audio Note.
If some says "looking for speakers under $10k" I include Audio Note virtually every time for the simple reason that I find little else that is out there that I think are as good. That's an honest assessment. There are other speakers that I like a whole lot but I'll recommend my favorite one first. It's not my fault that so far I find the E/Spe HE to be the best deal in the audio industry for loudspeakers. I just happened to find that early in life while Dudley took 40 years of listening to everything to draw the same conclusion.
I think that those sorts of companies deserve to be shouted about while most of the industry is shouting about rubbish to generate income for the industry and partners.
I find that most poster recommend the same thing all the time - Mr. P Dynaudio and Krell, Feaner Magnepan, Bel Canto or whatever else he bought this week, Florian and all things Panels, PatD and whatever measures well that week - Paradigm and PSB etc.
Gee in the last months here I have recommended everything from Kind Sound, Grant Fidelity, Odyssey, Klipsch, Audio Note, Sonist and several others. Feaner? you?
-
RGA, I take issue with that, I do not always, and in fact, seldom recommend Krell and Dynaudio. Well Dynaudio I may put out there more so than Krell. That just happens to be the last thread you read with me on it. I try to recommend what the person is looking for that I am familiar with. In most instances here posters are not looking to spend in the Krell and Dynaudio range. I think it is better to go with what the poster is wanting. You, on the other hand try to convert them to SET and AN speakers no matter what they are looking for. I think that's the issue more so than you being an AN fanboy. You also do not consider where people live and what they have access to. It may be vogue to you to recommend stuff no one has ever heard of but may be try and zero in on the question. Not everybody wants a Shanpooki or Yatzumutzi or whatever your Chinese flavor of the week is.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
RGA, I take issue with that,...snip...
Oh come on...seriously?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
RGA, I take issue with that, I do not always, and in fact, seldom recommend Krell and Dynaudio. Well Dynaudio I may put out there more so than Krell. That just happens to be the last thread you read with me on it. I try to recommend what the person is looking for that I am familiar with. In most instances here posters are not looking to spend in the Krell and Dynaudio range. I think it is better to go with what the poster is wanting. You, on the other hand try to convert them to SET and AN speakers no matter what they are looking for. I think that's the issue more so than you being an AN fanboy. You also do not consider where people live and what they have access to. It may be vogue to you to recommend stuff no one has ever heard of but may be try and zero in on the question. Not everybody wants a Shanpooki or Yatzumutzi or whatever your Chinese flavor of the week is.
Yeah you know now how I feel when someone says all I recommend is Audio Note. You might get it - people saying all you recommend is Krell and Dynaudio - you may tout it more often but not to the exclusion of everything else. Feaner and E-Stat won't because for them there is NOTHING ELSE except panels - NOTHING. Feaner is obviously a shill for Magnepan correct - after all he recommends them for people seeking rock - so he is either completely deaf or is on their payroll right?
As for SET conversion - no it's myth busting and fact correction. As for the size of the maker - well yes some of them will be tough to find and audition but then again that's the point of forums and reviews etc is to get the word out on superior gear that went under the radar - if forums are not for that no one needs to get on them - they can pick up Hi-fi Choice and What Hi-Fi and get the latest speaker shootout of the major players.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Feaner and E-Stat won't because for them there is NOTHING ELSE except panels - NOTHING.
Look in my gallery and of the three systems, you find planars in how many? The only brands where I own more than one of their product is Pioneer and VPI: I have a single player CD (on the shelf) and have a changer and have both a VPI RCM and turntable. Other than that, my systems are made up of different brands in each system with no overlap in any other system. I don't think you're a shill, but I confess that there is no other poster here or on any other website who has your dogged consistency. While there is certainly nothing at all wrong with enthusiasm, I agree that if you purport to be an objective reviewer, you need to expand that enthusiasm a bit. :)
What is a good $2000 speaker? AN
What is a good $80,000 speaker AN
What is a good DAC? AN
What is a good amplifier? AN
What is a good turntable? AN
What is a good cartridge? AN
What is a good speaker cable? AN
rw
|