I like tube preamp plus ss amp!!!

[Poultrygeist]

I sold my Bada tube hybrid ( MF clone ) as it couldn't come close to matching the fidelity of my lowly $200 MiniWatt SET. Tube hybrids, and I have owned two, are the worst of both worlds IMO.

I have yet to hear a high power solid state amp I could live with as that all important "first watt" always sucks. The only ss amps I would be remotely interested in would be an F1 or Dayens Ampino.

[E-Stat]

However, I kinda agree with RGA; why not just get a powerful tube amp if you aren't satisfied with the sound of SS?

Two reasons: budget and damping factor. Powerful tube amps are pricy (mine has doubled in price over the past ten years) and many speakers require an amp with lower output impedance for neutral response. The double Advents in the garage sound bloated and dark with the VTLs.

rw

[Feanor]

Such is true of all preamps I've heard vs. using attenuators. You are most likely hearing the sonic signature of the output coupling capacitors. From pics I've found through Google, it appears that the SF-1 used polypropylenes. By contrast, my decidedly neutral sounding Audio Research unit uses polystyrenes. The very best units today use Teflon. Each capacitor type has its own sound. Back in the 70s, many solid state receivers capacitively coupled their solid state output stage (typically using electrolytics) having a similar softening effect.

rw

A good arguement for passive attenuators, then -- likely you agree.

Maybe I email Chris Johnson at Parts ConneXion and as him what they do in case of the SE and SE+ modifications to the SL Line 1 -- I'm not likely to go for it though, since it's over $600.

[frenchmon]

RGA....if my memory serves me right, you seem to favor the combination of the Shengya PM 150 Monoblock hybrids and your Rotel RC 1082 preamp you reviewed some time ago. Is it that combination rather than a tube pre and SS amp you like better?

[frenchmon]

I sold my Bada tube hybrid ( MF clone ) as it couldn't come close to matching the fidelity of my lowly $200 MiniWatt SET. Tube hybrids, and I have owned two, are the worst of both worlds IMO.

I have yet to hear a high power solid state amp I could live with as that all important "first watt" always sucks. The only ss amps I would be remotely interested in would be an F1 or Dayens Ampino.

Ok...kindly explain this to me. Why would the first watt suck? My SS RB 1080 seems to be doing an outstanding job according to my ears....

[frenchmon]

I know that many audiophiles like to mix a tube pre with a SS amp to get what they consider the best of both worlds... However, I kinda agree with RGA; why not just get a powerful tube amp if you aren't satisfied with the sound of SS?

My thought is to either use a source component that can control the volume like a Benchmark or Bel Canto Dac or a cheap passive pre and then spend the savings (from not buying an active pre) on a really great amp... My feeling is that if I need a tube pre to improve on my SS amp, then the problem is the amp...

And..the Vincent SA-T1 out classes the Rotel RC 1090 in every way in my opinion. So tell lme Ajani....What would the tube amp do for me that the SS amp wont? Kindly give me some more insights. Do you think its possible to have more resolution and detail? I suspect it will seeing the SA-T1 gave me more than the Rotel pre.

[E-Stat]

A good arguement for passive attenuators, then -- likely you agree.

Definitely when the system supports such. I use the preamp for phono duty only.

Maybe I email Chris Johnson at Parts ConneXion and as him what they do in case of the SE and SE+ modifications to the SL Line 1 -- I'm not likely to go for it though, since it's over $600.

The use of the exotic teflons is why the ARC REF40 and CJ ART line stages are so expensive.

rw

[Ajani]

And..the Vincent SA-T1 out classes the Rotel RC 1090 in every way in my opinion. So tell lme Ajani....What would the tube amp do for me that the SS amp wont? Kindly give me some more insights. Do you think its possible to have more resolution and detail? I suspect it will seeing the SA-T1 gave me more than the Rotel pre.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying tube is better than SS... I think it's a matter of personal preference... What I'm really saying is that rather than spend for example

$1.5K on a tube pre + $1.5K on a SS amp, why not use no pre (if your source has volume control) and just get a $3K amp? (you should be able to get a high powered tube or at least a better SS for that money) ... Or get a cheap passive pre (around $300) and devote the remaining $2.7K to an amp...

So I suspect if you ditch the pre altogether and maybe just get the Vincent amps, you could get more resolution and detail..

But you'd need to try it for yourself and see...

If I'm remembering correctly, you really like the Bel Canto 1.5 (or 2.5)... So perhaps combining a 1.5 with a more expensive Amp would be the ticket...

[Ajani]

Two reasons: budget and damping factor. Powerful tube amps are pricy (mine has doubled in price over the past ten years) and many speakers require an amp with lower output impedance for neutral response. The double Advents in the garage sound bloated and dark with the VTLs.

rw

Re: budget - my thought is to do essentially what you have done and use an inexpensive passive pre (or in my case no pre as my DAC has volume control) and spend the rest of the budget on a more expensive amp... so cheap pre + expensive amp rather than the more traditional approx 50/50 split on active pre + amp...

As for the speakers needing SS: Why not combine them with the kind of gear that caused you to like them in the 1st place? For example; If I fall in love with a pair of speakers on a Naim system, then my aim should be to pair those speakers with Naim or something similar... If you didn't fall in love with those speakers on tubes, then why would you want to use tubes on them?

[Poultrygeist]

There is over 10 times the dynamic range in the first watt as there is in the second. The problem is resolution - if you can't hit a listening level with the first watt you're not likely to hear what's happening in that first watt. If you value inner detail and want to hear all the textures and layers of a good recording you need fast, efficient and coherent speakers which require low amplification. The best low powered amps are single ended triode tube amps. This combination will allow you to hear what's happening in that all important first watt and what's missing in a high powered system.

[frenchmon]

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying tube is better than SS... I think it's a matter of personal preference... What I'm really saying is that rather than spend for example

$1.5K on a tube pre + $1.5K on a SS amp, why not use no pre (if your source has volume control) and just get a $3K amp? (you should be able to get a high powered tube or at least a better SS for that money) ... Or get a cheap passive pre (around $300) and devote the remaining $2.7K to an amp...

So I suspect if you ditch the pre altogether and maybe just get the Vincent amps, you could get more resolution and detail..

But you'd need to try it for yourself and see...

If I'm remembering correctly, you really like the Bel Canto 1.5 (or 2.5)... So perhaps combining a 1.5 with a more expensive Amp would be the ticket...

Oh yeah....I did really like the Bel Canto. It was a classy piece of gear. SS with a subtle warm tube sound. When I by-passed the Rotel pre, and hooked it straight to the Rotel SS amp, and then ran the Musical Fidelity XRAY to the Bel Canto....great synergy, fantastic rich mids. Nice combination.

What stopped me from making the purchase of the Bel Canto 2.5 was that the analog input digitizes the analog to much. And as you know...while I still love my XRAY, I am sorta much a vinyl junkie these days. Don't know if you know much about Bel Canto and the great stuff they put out, but what turns a lot of audio hobbyist off of them these day is the fact that some of Bel Canto's gear is proprietary....like if you buy their phono amp, it can only be used with Bel Canto.

As far as the Bel Canto sound compared to what the SA-T1 is doing in my system right now, the SA-T1 is besting it. The sound is real tube. I believe its more detailed with greater extension both ways. I do believe the Bel Canto had a wider sound stage but the SA-T1 has greater resolution and is just sounding amazing right now....I pushed it today at really loud levels to see if I could detect any break up and to see if the bottom end would get sloppy and lose control and no sir...she stood up extremely well. As I said before its a German Design and German company and made in China to keep cost down.

I understand the suggestions you've given me and I appreciate it. Right now I don't plain on buying an amp. Don't know if you've ever heard of Musical Designs/Musical Concepts, but they make tubed gear and do a lot of mods and are about 15 minutes away from me....Some time down the road I may take the Rotel amp over there to get a tune up with new caps for cheap. But right now, Im still thinking over if I want to keep the Vincent. I like what its doing in my system but I may take it over to Peabodys to compare how close it is in performance with his Conrad Johnson pre. Sound wise I don't think its as warm as his CJ pre....The Vincent is more lively.

The SA-T1 when introduce in 2005 retailed for $1795...I've seen it retail lower at $1395-$1495. The one I have is a dealer demo and he is giving it to me for less than $1000 if I decide to keep it. I had my doubts before I stuck it into my system. I was in for a big surprise. Before I brought it home, I read lots of reviews and they where all positive and kinda saying this thing was unbelievable. Well I still had my doubts. I read only one bad review and that was over at Audio-asylum...some guy was saying it was the worst Vincent he had ever heard in comparison to all the other Vincent gear he heard that was just outstanding. But when I got it home and listened it sounded kinda boring....until the tubes got hot and all of a sudden things where not flat any more. And it made the XRAY sound awful good...sorta like when I plugged the XRAY into Peabodys system. My dealer says it only has about 100 hours on it.

So Im not buying another amp...at least not this year or next. But I have been looking for another preamp for a while...will it be the Vincent? I don't know but there's a good chance it will be.

[frenchmon]

There is over 10 times the dynamic range in the first watt as there is in the second. The problem is resolution - if you can't hit a listening level with the first watt you're not likely to hear what's happening in that first watt. If you value inner detail and want to hear all the textures and layers of a good recording you need fast, efficient and coherent speakers which require low amplification. The best low powered amps are single ended triode tube amps. This combination will allow you to hear what's happening in that all important first watt and what's missing in a high powered system.

Ok...im learning something here. So how do you know when you've hit the first watt? And kindly give me a short list of some of these amps and speakers you speak of...and then im off to research your opinion/facts...not that I don't believe you, its that I'd like to read up on it. And im not a burner....I don't listen to really loud music...I listen at low levels most of the time....Like now, the Vincent is doing to my Dizzy Reece album at this level that the Rotel could never do... Thanks for the education...

[frenchmon]

Ok Poultrygeist....I thought you would have responded by now. Unlike me, you must have a life.

Well I have a 200 watt SS amp and my speakers are 87db's. So you telling me at low levels I wont be able to hear that inner detail at lower levels like a 1 watt SET amp, and 100db speakers?

[Poultrygeist]

I knew nothing of crossover-less full range drivers and single ended triodes until I became friends with Ed Shilling who builds and sells the world famous Hornshoppe Horns. Before meeting Ed I too had the bigger is better mentality and spent lots of time and money on powerful systems that sounded great at first but became boring over time. The most common complaints I had with powerful ss amps ( like my Classe ) paired with complex and difficult to drive speakers ( like my Aerial Acoustics ) were they sounded dry, sterile, lifeless, fatiguing, and failed to connect me with the music. All that changed when I heard Ed's single driver back loaded horns which are Stereophile rated. What I longed for so long ( purity, intimate detail, liquid sound, and holographic sound stage ) I found in Ed's little horns driven by a tiny 2.5 wpc Miniwatt SET. I was hooked when I first heard his system and soon sold all my high powered gear. I never got around to buying the $800 HS Horns but own a Miniwatt and built a pair of Mk3 Frugal Horns which I love. Take the time to read the glowing reviews of Ed's horns here on Audio Review. I suggest you also read Martin J. King's papers who is a guru on full range speaker designs as is Bob Brines. There are forums dedicated to full range speakers/open baffle/tube gear at AC that will offer insight into this sub culture of high end audio for less money. I currently own three commercially made full range speakers: a Tekton 4.5 in bass reflex, a Tekton 4.5OB and a pair of Zu Omens. I drive these with a 2a3 direct heated SET of 4.5 wpc, a MiniWatt SET of 2.5 wpc and various low powered T amps. I have built four Frugal Horns, and a pair of Tang band WE-1808 Open Baffles over 15 inch Eminence Aplha bass full rangers. There is not one power robbing sound sucking crossover in any of these which is one reason I can hear what's happening in that first watt.

There are pictures of most of my gear in my gallery.

[Feanor]

Ok Poultrygeist....I thought you would have responded by now. Unlike me, you must have a life.

Well I have a 200 watt SS amp and my speakers are 87db's. So you telling me at low levels I wont be able to hear that inner detail at lower levels like a 1 watt SET amp, and 100db speakers?

Audio religions are like other religions; arguing with the converted is futile.

[Ajani]

Audio religions are like other religions; arguing with the converted is futile.

Pretty much...

Best to just try things for yourself and see if you like it...

[Ajani]

@ Poultry - Have you tried the HSU HB-1 Horns?

I've read a few forums where they claim to get great results pairing it with a Miniwatt SET:

[Poultrygeist]

Anji,

The HSU looks like a very nice HE speaker with a horn tweeter and a crossover.

It shouldn't be confused with the loaded/folded horn that I referred to. A back loaded ( terminus in rear ) or front loaded horn ( terminus in front ) has a single full range driver, no tweeter horn and heaven forbid a crossover. It gets it's name from the folded pathway inside which in Ed's design resembles a tuba. If you opened my Frugals and unfolded their pathway it would approximate a trombone with a wide bell.

It's been a great learning experience taking the road less traveled and we're getting new converts everyday. Sometimes I feel I'm all alone over here but when I go to AC I'm preaching to the choir :-)

[RGA]

I know that many audiophiles like to mix a tube pre with a SS amp to get what they consider the best of both worlds... However, I kinda agree with RGA; why not just get a powerful tube amp if you aren't satisfied with the sound of SS?

My thought is to either use a source component that can control the volume like a Benchmark or Bel Canto Dac or a cheap passive pre and then spend the savings (from not buying an active pre) on a really great amp... My feeling is that if I need a tube pre to improve on my SS amp, then the problem is the amp...

The only thing I can think of is cost to the consumer. Eventually audiophiles seem to get tubes in there someplace. Once they figure that out then it's a matter of going all the way. SS power amps are dirt cheap compared to good tube power amps.

[E-Stat]

so cheap pre + expensive amp rather than the more traditional approx 50/50 split on active pre + amp...

I've found the price differential to be greater with high powered tube amps. I pair a $2500 preamp with $9000 (2001 price) amps.

If you didn't fall in love with those speakers on tubes, then why would you want to use tubes on them?

I approach the topic somewhat differently. When I chose the VTL 450s ten years ago, there really weren't SS amps that had that midrange magic to these ears. By that, I don't mean added warmth - rather a higher level of focus on voices and a number of acoustic instruments. Fortunately, my Sound Lab stats have a relatively tame impedance curve which works ok with tubes. Conversely, when you start by choosing most speakers, they really require SS.

I'm not an SET fan largely because they are a poor match for the power needs of most full range electrostats.

rw

[Poultrygeist]

If you like the sound of electrostats you would love good open baffles powered by a SET.

[E-Stat]

The problem is resolution - if you can't hit a listening level with the first watt you're not likely to hear what's happening in that first watt.

I first noticed that about thirty years ago when I compared a Threshold Stasis 3 with Conrad-Johnson MV-75As. While the C-Js were sweet in the midrange, their resolution fell apart at low levels. The Stasis resolves very well all the way down to the floor.

If you value inner detail and want to hear all the textures and layers of a good recording you need fast, efficient and coherent speakers which require low amplification.

The fastest and among the most coherent speakers (single panel full range stats) are not especially efficient, but do benefit from high bias amps that run class A at low power levels resulting in good resolution down to the floor. As for speed, the moving mass of the 2.5 micron diaphragms used with Sound Lab stats is less than the air around them and are uniformly driven. Just don't ask them for OSHA busting output levels.

rw

[woofersus]

It seems like pairing a tube pre with SS amps is becoming more common. Ron Nagle of Enjoythemusic.com used Sanders ESL mono's with our Melody Pure Black 101 in his review a couple of months ago. Personally, I find most of the tube magic happens at the power tubes, but I've heard tube/SS combos I like before. Usually they were expensive components though. Unfortunately, many people who employ tube preamps with ss poweramps do so because they want to keep it cheap and only think of tubes as "warm" and that's the effect they're looking for. This usually results in slow, wooly sound.

[RGA]

RGA....if my memory serves me right, you seem to favor the combination of the Shengya PM 150 Monoblock hybrids and your Rotel RC 1082 preamp you reviewed some time ago. Is it that combination rather than a tube pre and SS amp you like better?

I would prefer a tube preamp. The problem is few good tube preamps have the features of the RC 1082 or are as inexpensive for what you get.

The RC 1082 preamp is really quite under the radar and underrated. I liked it better than an ARC preamp and a LOT more than Bryston's preamp which costs more than double.

The 1082 also has a pretty good phono stage on board that is both MM and MC. I felt it was a good reviewer's preamp.

I sold the preamp to Ryan M on this forum because I am heading overseas to work. I am debating what to do with my AN gear.

I bought the 1082 to be used mainly as a review preamp - in case I got certain gear in where I would need such versatile unit. If I was buying just for myself - AN's zero or M-1 are much better sounding for around the same price - but incredibly limited in what you can do and neither would have a phono stage and can be temperamental with SS power amps.

I still don't buy a lot of the arguments over power - stop focusing on watts and look at the QUALITY of the transformers - There is a panel owner on AA who swears by running SETs with all panels no matter the model - including the 1ohm variety.

[frenchmon]

I would prefer a tube preamp. The problem is few good tube preamps have the features of the RC 1082 or are as inexpensive for what you get.

The RC 1082 preamp is really quite under the radar and underrated. I liked it better than an ARC preamp and a LOT more than Bryston's preamp which costs more than double.

The 1082 also has a pretty good phono stage on board that is both MM and MC. I felt it was a good reviewer's preamp.

I sold the preamp to Ryan M on this forum because I am heading overseas to work. I am debating what to do with my AN gear.

I bought the 1082 to be used mainly as a review preamp - in case I got certain gear in where I would need such versatile unit. If I was buying just for myself - AN's zero or M-1 are much better sounding for around the same price - but incredibly limited in what you can do and neither would have a phono stage and can be temperamental with SS power amps.

I still don't buy a lot of the arguments over power - stop focusing on watts and look at the QUALITY of the transformers - There is a panel owner on AA who swears by running SETs with all panels no matter the model - including the 1ohm variety.

RGA...dont forget, I have the Rotel RC 1090....the big brother to your 1082 so I do know how good it is. But the Vincent SA-T1 best it. But I guest its not a fair comparison seeing one is SS and the other is tube. And you are right...the Rotel has an excellent onboard phono preamp. Which ARC preamp are you talking about?