Hello from Down Under, fellow audiophiles and freaks

Hello everyone.

I found this site most informative and helpful, which is why I had to say hello and interact with you all.

First of all I believe we are all here for the same reason. We love listening to music, regardless on what style, or genre it is.

So the only thing that is stopping complete happiness, is the means, equipment that we own and use for music at home.

This is why I am writing this post. I've hit a major crossroads because it is time to upgrade my system.

I had some 'experts' come in a review my hi fi system, and agree with me, that my strongest component is my speakers. The imaging is incredible. However my receiver cannot give the juice the speakers need.

Here is what I have :

yamaha rx-v1300 receiver
Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MK II's

Ok, additional information regarding my personal audtioning for McIntosh :

I have a pair of Dynaudio Contours 1.8 Mark II's, and just as the salesman said, I would
be able to better detect if a CD recording was produced well, or not. I actually auditioned many brands of speakers, it took me 6 months and 30 shops to narrow it down to 3 brands. Dali, B&W, and Dynaudio. I managed to get the latter, and do not regret that decision.

Now it took me 6 months before making an informed decision to part with that much money. It was no where near as 12K, but since we're talking about 12K, one word of advice that you don't have to be an audiophile, or genius to work out, take your SWEET time and audition as many systems as you can. Let your ears tell you what is good as well. I just think 12K worth of money is worth a lot of time to invest before parting. Maybe it's just that I'm old-fashioned. 12K isn't normally spare change. It's harder to justify a 12K bad choice, put it that way.

I have listened recently to a McIntosh and B&W setup, it was from what I was told
a 35K pair of B&W fronts (don't know which model).

1x McIntosh MCD205 CD changer
2x MC1201's
1x McIntosh Control centre (sorry didn't take down the model number)

The overall setup was about 75K to 80K.

Then I put on 2 of my favourite CDs, and one SACD which is their copy in the shop.

Now the CD I first played contained a mp3 song, which was obtained legally from the artist directly, it had to be a good produced mp3. When I played it on my system, I could hear the choirlike sample of about 5 to 8 voices.

When I heard that same track in the shop, it was as if someone cleaned my ears out, I could hear an additional 20 voices in the same song. It was absolutely incredible.
I auditioned a new CD I brought from last week, and it was great. I got a better kick from the mp3, so it really does make a difference what CD you feed it.

I am going to find it extremely hard to find any alturnatives to McIntosh, perhaps it's the poor setups of all of the other shops that I've gone to. I just checked ebay before posting this post, that there are NO McIntosh items for sale. Only outside Australia. Ok there are not many Australian distributors (I am in Oz), but I have not heard of any returns or resales either. The only resales I have heard are tradeins for upgraded McIntosh gear.

I'm thinking of getting a new power amp first, because for the time-being I can use the yamaha as a pre-amp. The 402 poweramp may be beyond what I need to drive my Dynaudio 1.8's, however the 402 is quadbalanced. Which I have been told is able to drive each channel much better. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I have read a lot of reviews of different brands.

So far most people have said nothing but positive things about McIntosh equipment.

So far it's not within my budget yet, do you recommend it's worth the wait to eventually
get it ? I'm thinking of the MC402 - Power Amplifier which is quad balanced.

However the review I saw of my Dynaudio speakers state that am amp of 150 W, should be enough. However my receiver gives 100W, which from the extensive amount of hearing that I have done, it's definately not doing my speakers justice.

Then eventually get the 201 CD/SACD player.

I don't want to buy something that is half price, and not be satisfied with it 3 years down
the track. I'd like to get it right the first time.

Is it worth the wait ?

I don't have that many choices in terms of brands in Australia.

There's NAD Master series, Plinus, Anthem, Marantz.

I'm also leaning more towards "balanced' connectivity and options for future
components. I have read and been told from enough experts that the quality from a balanced connection is much better than unbalanced.

If that is untrue, let me know.

I have yet to find negative feedback about McIntosh, and I know from my own eyes that the equipment looks beautiful. It DOES sound very good, when I auditioned them, that is not in question.

Any comments and advice would be appreciated

If you really like the Sound of the McIntosh, then I'd suggest waiting.... You can rush to spend your money on a minor upgrade and be dissapointed in the long run, or take your time and get what you really want....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

I don't have that many choices in terms of brands in Australia.

There's NAD Master series, Plinus, Anthem, Marantz.

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Welcome OzzieAudiophile,

I have a keen interest in this thread as I'm considering taking a job in Brisbane. Where are you living?

The one thing I was wondering if I should sell or store my current rig and buy down there or take it with me and get some power converters. What would be available for speakers down under? Any comments would be appreciated.

Cheers,

LDB

Hello Ajani.

Well like I said, I've been thinking for a long time about budget for something cheaper now, or wait 6 months to budget for the McIntosh gear, and get 1 piece at a time.

I don't know if the 252s would be enough to drive my dynaudio 1.8's, or I would need the 402. It's I think 250 W's per channel vs 400 W's per channel.

My Dynaudio's are 250 W speakers, and from one website it's stating that an amp that can give 150W will be enough to drive them. However I have a Yamaha RX-V1300 and that gives 100 W per channel, and my speakers are really screaming out for more. I did get the receiver BEFORE the speakers.

I am currently finding it very difficult to find an alturnative brand which performs as good.
But each other component IS cheaper.

I am not afraid to sacrifice my happiness (lol) in order to save up to get the McIntosh 252s or 402s. I need feedback of anyone who's used McIntosh, PLUS other brands of high end stuff to provide comparisons if that is possible :)

Gday Luvin Da Blues.

Well I live in WA, which is as west as you can get. Brisbane is far away. Each state I'd say would have a slightly different market. Some brands sell better in some states than others.

I don't know how it's all set up in Brisbane, what is high in demand etc. What you can do is look at all the major brands in hi fi and find out the list of Australian Distributors. I am not sure if the job you are considering taking up is working at a hi fi store or not, but if it is, then by doing your homework, you can find out which brands you will be trying to sell to your customers, before your company tells you. :23:

If you are going to work NOT in the hi fi industry, Brisbane , yeah check out the weather during the year so you know what to expect. Brisbane would be a busy area, like Perth is to WA.

I can only tell you what is popular speakers here in WA, it 'might' be helpful.

Harvey Norman normally go with Jensen, you won't find B&Ws, Dynaudio or Dali in those
particular shops.

The 'hi fi' specialists will stock B&W, Dynaudio and Dali mainly. There's a few which
stock Jensen. Some stock Monitor (Audio is it) ?, probably not more than 20 brands in WA.
A small market in terms of range. However pricewise, there is some really nice stuff
going for more than 10K, 30K, 50K etc. If you got the bucks those brands, they can get them in.

There is no way you have the flexibility and choice of brands as you would in the US, UK and the rest of Europe. Sorry, there's just a larger market in those countries. Not too many Australians have put themselves in the hi fi map making excellent gear lol.

Australian Hi-Fi is an excellent magazine which audition the very hi end equipment.
The jan issue audtioned Boulder series Amp, which go for about 20K, but it has 4 balanced inputs (drool....).

Good luck.

Thanks Ozzie,

The job is actually in the mining engineering/environmental field. The company is a Canadian firm base out of Vancouver and they have a office in Brisbane. I feel that they're going to give me an offer soon then I'll decide if I want to take it. It would be a HUGE move.

I have checked out they weather and just about everything I could think of that would influence my decision. There wouldn't be too much culture shock and the work visa is for 4 years (renewable) so I could come back if things don't turn out for the best.

Anyway, thanks for the tips, I'll be sure to check them out.

Cheers,

LDB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

I have yet to find negative feedback about McIntosh, and I know from my own eyes that the equipment looks beautiful. It DOES sound very good, when I auditioned them, that is not in question.

Any comments and advice would be appreciated

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Hi, welcome to AR.

as a Mcintosh owner, I can honestly tell you that if you like th Mcintosh sound (and it seems that you do) Nothing else will do.

nothing.

going from that yamaha to a Mcintosh will be a world of difference. and even 250 Mcwatts will be more than enough to drive the dyn's. in fact, you'll have plenty of headroom...

I'm driving a power hungry set of thiels with a 100 mcwatts, and I never had any problems whatsoever, and the setup just keeps impressing me.

with the 252, you'll need a preamp too though, a poweramp alone won't be enough, unless you're planning on using your yamaha as a pre, but unless the budget doesn't allow otherwise, I wouldn't recommend it :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Gday Bert.

Thanks for both the welcome and your advice regarding the McIntosh.

I appreciate the feedback, yes I had a feeling that the 252 would be enough for my Dyns.

I've compared the differences between the 252 and 402 apart from how much
power it can give.

The 402 has the following two extra features :

1. Quad-differential design cancels virtually all distortion and consists of four complete amplifier circuits, each a mirror image of the other, whose outputs are combined in the unique McIntosh made autoformers, delivering absolute transparency and musical accuracy into loads of 2, 4, or 8 ohms.

2. Fully Balanced Input to Output

I have no idea what they mean by 2. The 252 doesn't say 2. it says Balanced and Unbalanced Inputs instead.

I currently have no idea what prices each unit is, I'm waiting for a quote, but I'm in
no hurry to get anything yet due to my budget.

If the 2 features are worth the extra money then I may save up the extra to get it.
If the asking price for the 402 is too great, I may have no choice but to decline that
one. I'm sure most prices are way overinflated in Australia compared to USA/UK.

To answer your question, yes I do intend to use my Yamaha as my pre-amp for the
time-being. I'll eventually get a matching McIntosh pre-amp, however that answer may
change depending on the answer to this question :

One other thing about Balanced/XLR connections, obviously you would connect via XLR
from Pre to Power Amp. Now despite I have other components/sources which are
NOT balanced, do I still take the full advantage of "fully balanced" signal from source
to finally out of my speakers ? Or is the signal too degraded through an unbalanced
connection to the preamp, it will NOT improve from the pre to power amp process,
despite that they are connected via XLR ?

If the answer is NO all of your components must have balanced outputs and connect
directly via XLR into my pre or the sources will suffer degration, then I see no point getting
a McIntosh Pre-amp.

I have been told that the pre-amp is basically a means for volume control and to plug
things in. Well the yamaha receiver can do that, and will have 5x as many inputs as
any McIntosh pre-amp. Someone, please answer the question :)

the 252 has the balanced inputs (XLR) as well as the unbalanced inputs (RCA), but it's not a balanced design. The 402 is a balanced design, you could almost say that it was built for using the XLR's. To get the full benefit out of it, you do need a fully balanced pre too.

In terms of sound quality, the 402 Is better than the 252, but you'll have to decide if the extra money is worth it...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Gday Bert.

I received feedback from E-Stat, who stated the following regarding the PowerGuard
feature that is McIntosh technology :

"Actually most any amp has some sort of internal VI current limiting designed primarily to protect the amplifier, not the speaker. Some brands, however, like Pass Labs don't need such because the output stage is more capable. I think you are referring to their Power Guard circuitry. It's a compressor. Sorry, but I think compromising the signal by putting a compressor in the signal path on a presumed high end product to protect speakers from clueless folks who don't understand (or hear) clipping is ridiculous. You find that on mid-fi and pro gear."

Stepping back a bit, being a 'consumer' for the purpose of this thread, I am finding it
difficult to know which members on here are speaking more from a salesman perspective,
which ones own McIntosh, and which ones never owned McIntosh. I am not having a go at
anyone, and not pointing fingers, I appreciate all feedback and help.

Out of the 10 brands I have auditioned, only the McIntosh 402 upwards offer "fully
balanced" input/output.

Audio Research, VTL, Pass Labs, BAT, Conrad-Johnson are recommended that I
look at, if possible. So I'll ring up and find out if any of those exist in WA.

I am considering the Parasound A21 Power Amp with the P3 Pre-Amp, the A21 will
provide 400 W per channel, but is not fully balanced. I have also been told that Dynaudio
speakers LOVE current, so the McIntosh 402 will also provide 400 W per channel on
4 Ohms. I guess having extra reserve power wouldn't harm my system either.

Just re-interating, I did audition the MC1201 with the MCD205 , it was an incrediable
listening experience, nothing that can be said on this thread can change that fact.

Mind you, simply budget will stop me from getting anything more than a MC402
(pending quoted price).

If I choose to go with McIntosh, it will be my intention to get the McIntosh pre, and
MCD205 or MCD201. I (may) be able to get a good price for the MCD205 as it has a
slight dent on the top case (top left hand corner).

BlingBling72

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

Gday Bert.

I received feedback from E-Stat, who stated the following regarding the PowerGuard
feature that is McIntosh technology :

"Actually most any amp has some sort of internal VI current limiting designed primarily to protect the amplifier, not the speaker. Some brands, however, like Pass Labs don't need such because the output stage is more capable. I think you are referring to their Power Guard circuitry. It's a compressor. Sorry, but I think compromising the signal by putting a compressor in the signal path on a presumed high end product to protect speakers from clueless folks who don't understand (or hear) clipping is ridiculous. You find that on mid-fi and pro gear."

Stepping back a bit, being a 'consumer' for the purpose of this thread, I am finding it
difficult to know which members on here are speaking more from a salesman perspective,
which ones own McIntosh, and which ones never owned McIntosh. I am not having a go at
anyone, and not pointing fingers, I appreciate all feedback and help.

Out of the 10 brands I have auditioned, only the McIntosh 402 upwards offer "fully
balanced" input/output.

Audio Research, VTL, Pass Labs, BAT, Conrad-Johnson are recommended that I
look at, if possible. So I'll ring up and find out if any of those exist in WA.

I am considering the Parasound A21 Power Amp with the P3 Pre-Amp, the A21 will
provide 400 W per channel, but is not fully balanced. I have also been told that Dynaudio
speakers LOVE current, so the McIntosh 402 will also provide 400 W per channel on
4 Ohms. I guess having extra reserve power wouldn't harm my system either.

Just re-interating, I did audition the MC1201 with the MCD205 , it was an incrediable
listening experience, nothing that can be said on this thread can change that fact.

Mind you, simply budget will stop me from getting anything more than a MC402
(pending quoted price).

If I choose to go with McIntosh, it will be my intention to get the McIntosh pre, and
MCD205 or MCD201. I (may) be able to get a good price for the MCD205 as it has a
slight dent on the top case (top left hand corner).

BlingBling72

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Two Points:

1) All the brands you are considering (McIntosh, Parasound, Audio Research, VTL, Pass Labs, BAT & Conrad-Johnson) are well respected... so deciding which one to use will really just come down to which one sound best to you and gives you enough power....

2) I know you're not bashing any members (you just don't know who to listen to and who to ignore yet)... but E-Stat is definitely someone to listen to, as he knows his audio... That said, everything still comes down to what sounds good to you...

Hi Bert.

Thanks for the feedback. You raised a very good point, who's advice carries what weight
lol.

As I said, no disrespect intended. There are advantages and disadvatages of being in
WA, Australia being exposed to very few hi-end hi fi brands.

Disadvantage : Not many choices, so suffering from variety.

Advantage : Not many choices, save times auditioning so many brands.

Ok, I've taken a look at the other recommended brands, here is what I have found :

VTL, Pass Labs, are not available in WA.

Conrad-Johnson - at least 2x the price, and that's on special. RRP is 12K minimum :(


BAT : JACKPOT, the same shop that is selling McIntosh on their link state that they
stock BAT as well.

I will find out if the VK-250 is available, and obtain a price.

Thankyou Mr Bert, and Mr E-Stat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

Gday Bert.

I received feedback from E-Stat, who stated the following regarding the PowerGuard
feature that is McIntosh technology :

---

with my 100 watt Mcintosh integrated, I have rarely seen the power guard lights go on. That was driving power hungry thiels.

at the moment you see the power guard lights light up on the amp, on a 402, you'll be pretty much deaf...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by basite

...at the moment you see the power guard lights light up on the amp, on a 402, you'll be pretty much deaf...

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I'm not trying to be difficult here, but one necessarily incurs a sonic compromise simply by putting the input to output comparator in the signal path. Most high end audio components, on the other hand, strive for a simplified gain path. Compressors are found in many pro amps that are regularly overdriven and otherwise abused where sonic quality is a secondary consideration to power and reliability under all conditions.

My 27 year old Threshold Stasis has neither any sort of in circuit compressor nor any protection circuitry. It has thirty-two closely matched 150 watt output devices to source its 100 watt per channel output which obviates the need for such. And it has been utterly reliable in that many years.

I have found that simple is usually better with the sonic performance of audio circuits.

rw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

BAT : JACKPOT, the same shop that is selling McIntosh on their link state that they stock BAT as well.

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Victor Khomenko makes some excellent amplifiers in both tube and solid state models. A Russian immigrant to the states, his entire family worked at the Svetlana tube factory in St. Petersburg at one time or another. As one might assume by the company name, all of his amps are balanced. :)

rw

Thanks again for your input (input - no pun intended).

Thankyou for the "balanced" view (I think I'm in my Austin Powers mood) :P

I just hope that the store I will go to stock B.A.T. otherwise it's going to trim down my
options again.

I guess what I am limited to is the quality of the rest of my components, there is a saying,

"Your hi fi system is only as good as it's weakest component"

My Dyns are good, but obviously not the supreme of all speakers. My CD/DVD 5-disc
changer is a panasonic one, which does a great job feature-wise, however nowhere
near the league of anything of "quality".

I don't believe paying the extra 5K to 10K will really come out on my overall system.
However I do intend to get a high-end CD player. My collection is over 800 CDs, and
500 DVDs.

I took a look at the B.A.T. products, they don't look so asthetically pleasing, but it's by
far not the most important features I seek in a component. It will be interesting to find out
what prices they are in comparison to the McIntosh options.

All that I do know is that of all the ones I have auditioned so far, McIntosh is on a level
way above the rest.

As much as I can dream about it, there is no way I could literally afford anything near
the 10K range. Keep in mind that I still have a pre-amp (95% sure I'll need to use one
instead of using my Yamaha as one), then a decent CD/SACD player. I figured that
I would definately want a CD player that can play SACD's properly, and access the
actual SACD layers. I have a few SACDs, and they are all incredible quality.

The best ones I have are :

Dire Straits Brothers In Arms (20th Anniversary Edition), 3-layer, remastered by
Mark Knopfler himself

Best of the Carpenters

Jeff Wayne's - The War of the Worlds (2 SACD).

Andrea Bocelli - Andrea

Your hi end hi fi system would absolutely sing like angels in heaven if you auditioned
any of the above.

I have Emma Shapplin's Etterna on DVD Audio (absolutely incredible voice and quality).

I guess one other component I neglected to mention, another element I can add into
my overall hifi equation :

I have contact details of a Profesional Electrical Company which provide various
Surge Protection, and similar products/services.

One of them is an 8-outlet system that will provide a 'constant' 240 V throughout
all 8 outlets. Now it was pointed out to me that hifi equipment is able to provide optimal
performance if they are operating at precisely 240 V (that is the Australian standard),
I believe the way that it works, is that it constantly monitors how much is being fed, and will
prevent any 'additional', and make up for moments where it dips below that level.
I would imagine it would be expensive because it requires hookups with the overall
electrical system, the meter box, everything. I wouldn't be surpised if that is the same cost
as half of what my hifi system is worth :D

The sole company which provide our power, does not guarantee a consistant/constant
240 V supply. I don't know the costs involved, but having such an installation would
surely make an improvement.

Any equivalent product is used by any of you guys ? If so, what was the noticable
difference ? Much of a difference ? or all hype ?

Hello, I have added a new threat, in the "General Audio" Section.

The topic is called,

"Requirements to turn your room into an Optimal Listening Environment"

Please take your time to read, and pass comments, add recommendations if you can.

Thankyou muchly.

BK.

Mac? Why not? Well, you heard E-Stat's comments. But a great deal has to do with availability in your locale. Also, whether you would consider used equipment.

Personally if buying new equipment (on a generous budget), I'd consider Pass Labs and Ayre amplification first, then perhaps BAT, Audio Research (ARC), VTL, Conrad Johnson, and Monarchy (for powers amps), ahead McIntosh,.

For used equipment I wouldn't dispise any of the foregoing, including McIntosh models made in the last decade of so.

Don't obsess about balanced versus single-ended. If components are internally single-ended, (as are most McIntosh and Conrad Johnson -- to my limited knowledge), then balance connections aren't important except for very long runs of interconnecting cable. I believe Pass, Ayre, and of course BAT components are mostly balanced; between fully balanced components, balanced connections can be very synergistic.

Have you listend to the Plinus amps. I think that they have a wonderful sound. They are very expensive here in the States.

Hi blackraven.

Thanks for the tip, yes there is one shop which stock Plinius. I'll have to audition that
properly, will do tomorrow. I got some prices, the models appear to be relately old ones
in comparison to what you can get outside Australia :(

Feanor - thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated.

Used equipment ? There's only perhaps 3 or 4 shops which sell any used equipment, and
those are that old, I think Elvis himself was usin :ihih:

Those used hifi gear are cheaper than my cables :shocked:
You may use them if you needed a decent paperweight :ciappa:

No such thing as hi-end gear as used equipment in those shops. We probably wouldn't
have more than 50 hifi shops in WA. 30 of them are low-end to middle-range.

Ok, Pass Labs and Ayre, BAT, Audio Research (ARC), VTL, and Monarchy all NOT
available in WA :sad:

Conrad Johnson yes one shop does stock it, but only 2 models, and they won't get
any more in for you unless you buy it, which I'm not prepared to do.

CA200 - $8K (no balanced outs)
LP70S - $9K (no balanced outs)

I'll add these prices to ALL of my options to my topic above.

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

No such thing as hi-end gear as used equipment in those shops. We probably wouldn't
have more than 50 hifi shops in WA. 30 of them are low-end to middle-range.

---

What Middle range brands are available? I'm not going to suggest that they might sound better than McIntosh, but they may be such a substantial step up from your Yamaha Receiver that you won't feel the need to spend the extra money on the really high-end stuff.

You might want to check if you can audition NAD Masters Series, Marantz Reference or Musical Fidelity gear etc....

Hi. Well I've decided to close all doors, in terms of, it's high end, or nothing.

One thing has to be made clear, I'm NOT silly enough to realise that I need to spend,
X-amount of money minimum to get the high level of detail I need out of my music.

However, the middle-range products are like the $300 jobs, the all-in-one systems, that
all come in 1 box etc, that can fit in the boot of your car. My Yamaha receiver is at least
10x better than all of those options.

It's quality like low-end bookshelf systems, more for practical and space saver reasons.
Nothing wrong with those, but whatever I want to get, I want to be completely happy with
it, not just now, but 5 to 10 years down the track.

Well to answer your question, Yes I can make just one addition, use my Yamaha as
my pre-amp, and still get a decent power amp that can better drive my speakers.

Everyone can forget about removing my speakers out of the equation, these puppies need
a lot of juice, and I will need a very good amp to get the best out of it.

The paramount thing is that I "need" to get the best listening experience out of my
system, home, as possible.

However I can safely rule out 99% of everything, rule out low to mid end components, and
anything that costs more than 10K.

80% of all high end gear in WA costs $12K or more :(

Ok, I found out my two McIntosh options :

MC252 7.2 K
MC402 10 K

YES you see my point ? We have to pay much more than you guys in Europe or the USA.

Ebay, no McIntosh gear :( in Australia, as if they would part with it. In the US, yes
people will sell it on Ebay, but then you have different current settings, which I'm not
willing to fiddle about with, plus no warranty etc.

I won't consider second hand, for warrantee purposes. It's only my personal prefernece,
and I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to buy second hand gear. Problem with that is
that you have no idea how good/or badly the previous owner treated that component,
it may be half way out because all the years of overheating due to poor ventilation etc.

I took a listen to the Master Series, but the Universal player for example has too many
features missing (no Balanced out !!), the CD playback doesn't hold a torch to McIntosh.
The SACD playback is not the best either. Look it's fine, but it's nearly 4.5 K here.

Everything in NAD Master Series is 4.5 K , I cannot justify 4.5 K for that series.

I have found many returns of those components, due to overheating, or the power
supply fried. It may be due to user error (i.e. poor placemant causing poor ventilation), but
I cannot assume all of them have made the same mistake.

The hifi store has pulled the plug on NAD due to too many returns.

There is basically at least one feature or another that is missing in the NAD Master
series in each component, it's too frustrating to justify 4.5 K to go without the
features.

The surround sound pre and power amp, have NO balanced connections.

So no point buying the SACD/CD player, as that has balanced outs.

Feedback I received the reps redistibutor is that their R&D will consider the missing
features for their next models, assuming he wasn't talking porky's.

The NAD M15 appears to be exactly the same as my Yamaha receiver, except the M15
has 2 HDMI in. My Yahama has at least 2.5 x as many inputs !!, and 2x as many
surround modes.

Only their integrated amp has a balanced in.

Well by foregoing XLR altogether it certainly provides me cheaper and more options.

From Feanor's and E-Stat's comments in my Poll Thread, to get the "full" benefit of
balanced connection from source to pre-power, the pre and the power must both be
fully-balanced.

It appears that for that to happen with the McIntosh brand, that's going to set me back
at least 16K :( that kind of money I certainly do not have.

There are many other components which have XLR outs, but are not "fully balanced".

I could consider the Parasound A21 + either the P3 or the JC2 (I'd assume the best
connection would be XLR, however it doesn't state that the components are fully
balanced.

A21 is just over 4K
P3 about 1.7 K
JC21 about 7K

The other option is to just get a power AMP, probably the Parasound A21, and
keep with the Yamaha RX-V1300 to use as a pre-amp.

What I really want is a Universal Disc player, which will upscale DVD to either 720p /
1080i, can play SACD, and have balanced outputs

There's a Parasound D3 for 3.6 K

I would imagine the McIntosh CD/SACD, and Multi players would cost at least 6K.

My player will have to be DAMN good, because I have a LOT of CDs.

I have yet to actually sit down and compare the same components, with a single-ended
connection, and a XLR connection. I would like my ears to tell me.

Anyone tried/owned/or know anyone who owned Parasound Halo Series ?
and how was the go with it ?

the parasounds aren't fully balanced. Just like the MC252, they also offer XLR (balanced) inputs, but aren't fully internally balanced.

and if I were to choose between the parasound and the 252, i'd pick the 252 anytime.

oh, if you are dropping the idea of getting a Mc though (financially, they do seem to be pretty expensive over there :)
then also check out Primare...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

Well by foregoing XLR altogether it certainly provides me cheaper and more options.

---

I'm not convinced that balanced connections are necessarily better. With certain systems, yes. They were designed to reduce noise for extremely long cable runs. My longest run is 2 meters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

w anyone who owned Parasound Halo Series ?
and how was the go with it ?

---

I have heard the JC-1 / JC-2 combo driving Sound LAB Majestics. AMR Cd player. It was during a meeting of the Chicago Audio Society and both Richard Schram of Parasound and Dr. West of Sound LAB were both there. Superb sound, but I wouldn't trade the amps for my VTL tubes. I'm not sure if they were run balanced, but both are most certainly balanced in their design. Above the JC-2 is John Curl's ultimate preamp, the Blowtorch.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/parasound.jpg

rw

Thanks Mr Rw.

Yes I believe I'll need to return back to the shop to reaudition the Parasound series,
and compare Balanced, with Unbalanced. Last time I was there it was a P3 Pre with a
A23 Power, with a 16K set of DynAudio Confience floors. They connections were all
unbalanced. I was not convinced even the unbalanced cables they were using were that
good. It looked like a $10 job. The sound lacked bass, and had not very good detail
in comparison to MY set up. I would blame it more to poor set up. So I'll give them
another go.

I'd be more interested in the A23, they have a Raysonic CD128, which is a valve tube
player. Looks very nice.

It has to sound nice at the store, otherwise no matter what component it is, what brand,
how much it costs, I cannot be encouraged to buy it. Surely it HAS to sound at least
as good, if the speakers and source are 10 times better than mine !!.

If I am mistaken, let me know :)

E-Stat, thanks for the info, yet again.

Just to throw a spanner into the works, I finally Auditioned the Plinius Pre-power and CD
player. I was very impressed. Unfortunately the entire system is going for 15K.

The power amp is 6K. I may not be interested in their CD player because it doesn't do
SACD.

I'm getting pretty sick of going to shops which have no CD players that can access the
SACD layers :( I have 6 SACDs and intend to end up with a good collection of them.
Nobody will convince me that SACD is NOT a worthwhile feature, as I have heard the
difference.

The Mcintosh so far is the best SACD player that I've auditioned from all the shops I've
gone to.

Then again all McIntosh equipment has also been connected via Balanced, whereas
every other system, and setup in all other shops have been connected via single-end
whether they have Balanced outs, or not. The shops do not even stock XLR cables !!! :(
the cheapskates, AND all shops stock only 1 brand of cable :( The stocks in these
shops (even the ones that stock the most expensive components), don't even stock
the top of the range cables !!!. That is a rather disspointing thing I noticed.

As if no one in WA is never going to spend more than $150 for an interconnect, or more
than $2 per metre speaker cable !!! :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

Yes I believe I'll need to return back to the shop to reaudition the Parasound series, and compare Balanced, with Unbalanced.

---

When I worked at a hi-fi shop (long ago), we would encourage serious customers to borrow a component over the weekend to try out in their system. Naturally, we would get an imprint of their credit card to minimize their ability to take an additional discount. :)

Such is the only way I believe you can get the full measure of a component. One by one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

Last time I was there it was a P3 Pre with a A23 Power, with a 16K set of DynAudio Confience floors. They connections were all unbalanced. I was not convinced even the unbalanced cables they were using were that good. It looked like a $10 job.

---

I think you are simply hearing differences in the cables, not necessarily the type of connection. Seek those with the lowest dielectric coefficient (L x C /1034). A perfect cable would be 1 - as a point of reference, my JPS Labs are 1.12.

rw

rw, thanks for the jpslabs info. The only place I could get any of those cables is ordering
off the net. There'd be no way any shops in WA would have them.

I upgraded my standard cables over to Monster. There was a substantial improvement in
the overall sound. I even purchased 24 carot gold-plated speaker connectors to connect
my AudioQuest CV-4 speaker cables into, rather than connecting via bare wire.

We are that far behind cable-wise, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. There's no way
to possibly even get the top of the line Monster cable, even if I wanted to.

One shop stored XLR Audioquest cable (in the official box), and I also saw a couple of
pairs/boxes of other Audioquest cables, which were going for between $500 and $2K.

As I stated earlier, the rest of the shops pretty much sell other brands, but never the
very top of the line. Sort of mid-range.

I basically minimise the length of any of my cables, everything is 1m, with exception
of my speaker cables, which are between 1.5 and 2 metres.

The overall room is quite small, and all of my components are stacked together.
My new cabinet will mean the components will have more space between each other,
however 1M is still more than plenty.

I would take the guess that what the cables cost, and reputation of the company, would
be at least a semi-indicator as to the "quality" of it. I would make the guess the cables
I purchased are about 1/2 the prices of what you paid for xv.

Though my components (apart from my speakers) are probably worth (retail wise)
about 1/5 of what yours are.

I'm making the assumption I'm just about getting the best I can, out of what components
I have. My profile has the list of components I am currently using.

Cheers.

Look at the Marantz SACDP's. They make some excellent High End SACDP's. They should be available in Australia as I've seen some Aussie reviews on them.

Qualifi sells the SA11s2, SA11s1, and SA15s1, these are all great players

Yep blackraver, thanks for the input.

My priority for now, is the poweramp, IF I don't choose to get an integrated amp instead.
So far, regardless on brand, I've been much happier with the poweramp, in terms of
features, the juice it can give, than the integrated. I have to consider the number of
inputs of any pre-amp in comparison to my Yamaha RX-V1300. Most of the preamps
definately have nowhere near as many inputs, which is not really my main concern
anyway. I've yet to find any preamp that has no HDMI 1.3a inputs, and I'm unlikely to
find any. It won't be the reason I'd never get one. However rest-assured, any power amp
that I DO buy ? Will have a matching preamp of the same brand, that's a given !!.

Yeah I'm finding it very hard to end up getting anything else than a McIntosh 402, as it's
the only fully-balanced one, which is the cheapest in that brand :(

Ok, it is still being argued and discussed on this thread, that it is not necessary. I need
to compare that 402, or any other McIntosh amp that is fully balanced, with the McIntosh
amps that are NOT fully balanced.

I need to justify the extra 4K :( or haha. Before any of you reply to this comment,
I WILL be willing to forego 6 more months of pain, in order to get this 402, if I find the
fully-balanced feature is worth it.

Anyone who has a fully-balanced system setup, and has been able to compare it with
a non-balanced setup, PLEASE share your experience on here. I'd prefer if it was the
same speakers that you tested :)

I MUST and I repeat must, get this power amp purchase correct, as I want this amp to
last me for the next 10 years AT LEAST. In terms of how McIntosh looks ? I lurrve it haha.
It looks very nice. However that is NOT the reason I will end up buying it if I do.

Yes E-Stat, I completely agree the cables make an excellent and significant difference.
I am happy with my Monster choices, however if I knew I could of got the top of the range
equivalent on the Monster website at the SAME price :(

Clear TIP for anyone in Australia, the prices are WAY overpriced in the shops. Not entirely
their fault, Australia have to pay an excessive import tax. If you are able to go to the
official website, look at the price online. Will be a bit of an eyeopener. However you DO get the
advantage of getting the advice from the shop, and you know where to return it if you are unhappy
with it, or something goes wrong with it.

I would be unable to spend 1K or more for any particular cable, no matter how much you can convince
me it's worth every dollar :)

Yes I agree, the component itself makes more of a difference to the overall performance as opposed
to balance/single end, or how it is connected. I'm sure you guys would be frustrated by now, that I'm
nearly talking myself into getting the 402. However I need as much feedback about your setup as
possible, so I can get a better insight. It's always appreciated, as it has been so far from every
reply to this thead to date :)

Hi all.

I got the original PS3 and started off a Blu-Ray collection. I watched Heroes, The Dark
Knight, absolutely incredible.

Despite what reviewers have said about the 'poor' playback for music PS3 do, well I would
guess if you had to compare PS3 CD playback to some of the best sources money can
buy, then I'd be forced to agree.

However PS3 does a pretty good job with CD playback for me, but my DynAudio
Contours are my strongest component. The SACD playback expectedly is much
better than CD.

I've conntected the audio using a Monster mid-range Optic cable. I intend to upgrade
that cable. I'm trying to upgrade my cables right now to reduce the number of
weak links of the signal.

HI ozzieaud- i'm from WA as well! Perth Metro. I just joined the forum a while back. I don't consider myself an audiophile as i don't have what's called high end (or even middle end, so i've learnt) equipment. I certainly would have audiophile ears though! I surprised you havn't considered buying overseas and getting it shipped here yourself. It would cut out the massive middle man/distributor markup. I restore US cars and buy a lot of stuff for them from the States. If you are careful, you can save about 40% on what the parts sellers here are selling them for. Surely you can ring around the world, after emailing first to see what they have, the prices, cost of shipping etc. I dare say your expensive amp would be heavy- FedEx or UPS would be the best option, although with FedEx you always have to pay Import Duty unless it is made in the USA , and GST. Doing it this way would definitely get you the Mcintosh at a better price. But the risk is damage in transit and warranty in case of problems.

Also, i'm surprised you mentioned Harvey Norman - i think they would sell the Chinese made stuff that they can get a huge markup on. And i have just recently learnt that there is a surprising amount of "name brands" that are now made in China with Chinese made components and very little engineering. (read: cheap and poor quality). Examples are your aforemention Monitor Audio (once a respected English speaker manufacturer), Infinity, AR - Accoustic Research and Jensen i think, plus some others i can't think of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by challengaaah

HI ozzieaud- i'm from WA as well! Perth Metro. I just joined the forum a while back. I don't consider myself an audiophile as i don't have what's called high end (or even middle end, so i've learnt) equipment. I certainly would have audiophile ears though! I surprised you havn't considered buying overseas and getting it shipped here yourself. It would cut out the massive middle man/distributor markup. I restore US cars and buy a lot of stuff for them from the States...

---

I don't want to be responsible for taking your thread Off Topic, but do you make house calls? :idea: My 2000 Formula needs some body work and some engine work before I sell it and replace it with an '09 G8 GT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by E-Stat

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but one necessarily incurs a sonic compromise simply by putting the input to output comparator in the signal path. Most high end audio components, on the other hand, strive for a simplified gain path. Compressors are found in many pro amps that are regularly overdriven and otherwise abused where sonic quality is a secondary consideration to power and reliability under all conditions.

My 27 year old Threshold Stasis has neither any sort of in circuit compressor nor any protection circuitry. It has thirty-two closely matched 150 watt output devices to source its 100 watt per channel output which obviates the need for such. And it has been utterly reliable in that many years.

I have found that simple is usually better with the sonic performance of audio circuits.

rw

---

I know Threshold has been a great high-end company for many years, but your email made me curious. Should one of your outputs fail, does Threshold have your device parameters documented so a replacement can be found, or would all devices require replacement to acheive the same performance level? I would imagine after 27 years of use, some components parameters would have shifted, electrolitic capacitors dry out, resistor resistances changes, so the latter would seem a better option. After 27 years I can't believe all devices would have shifted identically.

Audio/video has been my hobby for over 40 years. I've never had to replace a failed amp/receiver, so I doubt blown outputs are a real concern in mid/hi-end audio. It just sounds like something a high-end company like Threshold might do for their customers.

I haven't listened to a MC amp since 81' when working for CBS. We used several different models. I worked in their tape mastering and replication plant. We used 2125 in our Mastering/Dolby and A/B rooms, 5150s in our individual QC listening booths and suprisingly used MC40s for our PA system. Luckily after the plant moved to Georgia from Indiana, I was able to get a couple of the MC40s. We also used Crown DC300, but the MCs sounded soooo much better.

For sources we used Nakamichi high-end decks 700, 1000 and 582Zs, as well as Ampeg and 3M mastering decks. They used mostly JBL speakers at the time, Studio Monitors in all except the QC rooms where JBL bookshelf speakers were used. The MCs always sounded great at all volume levels. Never any distortion.

Hi all.

Thanks for the information, it is definately all extra food for thought. Plenty to digest lol.

Welcome aboard challengaaah to the best audio forum on this planet lol. I appreciate
your feedback. Yes I have heavily considered the points you raised, particularly purchasing
from overseas. I found several companies will not provide a warranty if you purchase
from overseas when I pursued this on the official sites.

The hassle to ship here, pay the extra postage, assuming it does not get stopped
at customs, is one thing, but to ship it back for repair, then wait for it to come back,
just even more hassle, the cost for the postage is not covered by warranty. As strange as
it sounds, I am willing to pay the exta 10 to 20% if I can get the components local.

I must say I have not been too impressed with Harvey Norman and most of the other
similar chain shops, not one would say have 'hi-end' gear. I have been rather impressed
with the monster cable range, I'm about to place an order from a US supplier for the
top end cables. I will be able to future-proof with these cables, at least for several
years, and they will still be cheaper to what Harvey Norman will charge.

Retail will be highway robbery in WA, unfortunately there's no such thing as being
smart enough to make anything half decent here, so it's all imports. Some shops
however really know their stuff and I've been around the block long enough to know
whether they know what they are talking about.

I wouldn't mind obtaining a Cedia qualification, but then I'd have to work in the industry.
Well if the money was right... :2:

The amp is going to be my major concern. I still need a replacement, I know I can get
much more out of my DynAudio Contours.

To date I've been impressed only with McIntosh. The other brands I have auditioned, just
have some aspects missing. It may be possible due to poor set up, but you'd think
they'd all set it up to optimal conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bfalls

Should one of your outputs fail, does Threshold have your device parameters documented so a replacement can be found, or would all devices require replacement to acheive the same performance level?

---

The current Threshold is a completely different company today than it was in the 80s so they would likely not be of much assistance. On the other hand, the gifted designer Nelson Pass (now of Pass Labs), is one of few designers who readily provides schematics and online advice regarding any of his electronic children. You can find many a thread on this very topic here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bfalls

I would imagine after 27 years of use, some components parameters would have shifted, electrolitic capacitors dry out, resistor resistances changes, so the latter would seem a better option. After 27 years I can't believe all devices would have shifted identically.

---

With respect to the outputs, only faster versions of the originals can be found. I replaced the Mallory electrolytics about two years ago. My comments regarding the lack of protection circuitry has more to do with the current capability of the output stage than the device matching.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bfalls

We also used Crown DC300, but the MCs sounded soooo much better.

---

That didn't require much as Crown gear of that vintage was pretty harsh sounding. The IC-150 preamp was the poster child for how not to use ICs and massive amounts of negative feedback. I had a D-150 from '74-'75.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bfalls

The MCs always sounded great at all volume levels. Never any distortion.

---

Perhaps not overtly audible distortion, but in the true context of the word, they most certainly changed the input signal. I will agree, however, that their sins are largely of omission rather than commission.

rw

Hello everyone.

It's been a long time since I was last on here. What's news is I am about to get a new
Power Amp, and it's about TIME !!!.

I've pretty much tested as much brands of power amps I can for my area. If you can recall
my previous threads, I've not purchased anything earlier due to something either missing,
or it just didn't sound right when I auditioned it. Now anything relatively less than
5 years old over 1k is going to perform better than my Yamaha RX-V1300.

In case you're new to my situation I auditioned the following brands :

McIntosh
Plinius
NAD Master Series
Parasound
(all prices mentioned are in Australian dollars)

McIntosh - is mainly the price, 7 K regardless on how good
it actually is, far beyond my budget for 1 component. It was not really the great
help (you know who you are if you posted on my thread before) which disuaded me from
purchasing. The price made it quite impossible.

Plinius - Hmmm I started to get into my head that anything over 3K is at least worth
an audition, this was going for about 4 to 4.5k ish. However I auditioned several of my
CDs (of various music genres), and just could not lure me. It just didn't sound like
4k to me, not really that much better than my yamaha. Perhaps my DynAudio
speakers were better than the ones in the store, but the latter were reasonably good.

Parasound - Well I recall speakers were DynAudios, Confidence Series, so the next
level up from my Contours. However I would have to blame mainy the setup, I was
quite dissapointed with them. Even if they were half the price of what they were selling
them for, I'd still refuse to buy them. I couldn't even force myself to like anything about
them.

NAD Master Series - The audition was quite good, about 4 to 4.5 K for the power amp.
At the time I was auditioning the entire series. One local supplier was quite dissapointed
to note that most of their customers returned overheated units. Yes Class A run hot,
and if you don't give them room, they can't breather fault of the consumer. Still, that
wasn't the main reason I said no. There were just some features that were missing.
This brand to me appears that it is one of the ones where the more components of the
same series, it would perform better. You know that some components and brands don't
need that kind of dependency. Call it more intuition of the listener. Take the last comment
with a grain of salt. Perhaps you can relate to that comment.

Well I heard about the Xindak advertised in the same supplier who used to stock
NAD Master Series. I then asked if anyone knew much about this, was it a Class A ? etc.
I was informed it was, and the website (as little English that's doesn't appear translated),
confirms this. I thought ok what does it sound like ?

To be fair I thought it would be better to bring in my Yamaha and compare it. The Dyns
probably would not fit in my car, plus they had similar quality speakers. First their
speakers were hooked up to my Yamaha, their source, my CDs, their cabling. Yep,
my Yam could not drive those speakers haha. Absolutely terrible job. The music was
reasonably clear, but... the speakers sounded quite lousy. BIG tip folks, if your speakers
are decent enough, your amp must also be able to power them more than adequately.

Ok well I thought I could use the Yam as a pre amp (as I could not afford a pre and
power as 1 purchase), so tried the Xindak XA8800MNE Mono Power Amplifier, hooked
up the speaker cables to the latter, same cables, same source (Cambridge Audio 840C),
and my same CDs.

You know you hit a winner when you hear 2 seconds into any song that you play the
extreme amount of improvement. No I'm not exaggerating you read right 2 seconds.
The store speakers were very easily powered by this Amp, I would imagine the overall
experience would be just a little worse off since I don't have a decent source. However
400 W p/c for my 250 W Dyns, yes really will do the job.

These monoblocks will easily fit into my hifi cabinet, I have at least 11 to 13 cm extra
space in all dimensions so they can breathe. I will however will double check to make
sure it is enough. If these Class A's need more space, then, grrrrr hehe.

I cannot wait to get them and will be soon :14:


Big problem however, I am not very happy with any pre amp I've seen from Xindak or
anywhere else for that matter. I am looking for a pre amp that has...

1. Xlr inputs and outputs as options
2. At least 4 inputs. 2 of them ideally optical.
3. HDMI ins and outs (so I can fully replace my Yamaha receiver)
4. 5.1 speaker inputs (so I can fully replace my Yamaha receiver)

To date the only pre amp which meet all 4 above is the Marantz AV8003.

After looking at it on paper, can somebody please explain to me as to when I think of
Marantz, I think of home theature specialists only, and not as competitive in the 2-channel
market ?

Ok I know what you're about to say, you cannot really get the best of 2 and x-channel
in 1 box, at least for serious listening. Is the AV8003 too good to be true or is it
the real deal and solve my dialemma ?

Ozzie,

I've been reading your posts. I own a Plinius CD-LAD preamp. It's not a current unit, but I have yet to find anything that compares. I also purchased mine used (off of eBay, of all places), but it's been rock solid. Current Plinius preamps should offer the same quality and they are definitely fully balanced all the way. Plinius also makes excellent amps, although these will run hot from what I've been told, so they'll need to be in an well ventilated cabinet. Suffice it to say I'm a big fan of the brand.

Several years ago I purchased a b-stock Perreaux amp from Audio Advisor, here in the states. It was only 200w, but it was a fantastic amp. I only sold it to buy something I thought was better (it wasn't). But Perreaux is another down-under brand you should consider. Rock-solid gear and great sound.

According to their websites, I found a few other brands I believe are also carried in Australia: Cambridge Audio, Naim, YBA, and PS Audio. The latter should be available from several retailers. They just introduced a new CD player / DAC combo, the PWT/PWD, that is supposed to sound amazing. For a CD player with balanced out, the Cambridge 840c is a terrific value and they also sell DVD/SACD players, although not with balanced outs. Anyhow, Cambridge may not be of the same caliber, but it's a just a suggestion. Finally, both Plinus and Perreaux make excellent CD players (CD-101 & CD-1 respectively) that have balanced outs.

Also, if you want really good CD playback, have you considered an external DAC? There are several that would improve the playback of just about any player (even the PS3) that will also have balanced out. What comes to mind immediately is the little $400 Cambridge DAC, but if you need something higher end, you could always opt for the McIntosh MD-1000. I also read that Benchmark ships to Australia and may be an option too. Their DACs are very highly rated here.

LDB,

You're moving??? What about that MH DAC you just bought?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

... so tried the Xindak XA8800MNE Mono Power Amplifier, hooked up the speaker cables to the latter, same cables, same source (Cambridge Audio 840C),and my same CDs.

---

Congrats. The amps look gorgeous (at least to my aesthetic). I like seeing lots of brawny TO-3 outputs that don't get upset when you throw them a curve with a challenging speaker load. Here's a great naked pic: scroll down a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile

Big problem however, I am not very happy with any pre amp I've seen from Xindak or anywhere else for that matter... Is the AV8003 too good to be true or is it
the real deal and solve my dialemma ?

---

Sorry, I'm not much of a high end AV processor buff. You might start a new post on the HT section to get better exposure to your question.

rw