Conrad Johnson/ Vincent preamps

[Feanor]

'Mon, you're being mean, mean, mean to Mr. P who is a sensitive guy. (I'm glad to see him posting again, for sure.)

Were I anywhere near you guys I'd haul over both my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 and my Jolida passive pre.

The former is exceedingly neutral and solid state-like except that with vintage Amperex 'PQ' tubes it does add that fake ambiance you can get with tubes. The Jolida would be the truth-teller provided the power amps don't have unusually low input impedance.

One thing I wonder is how the Zu's can be worth a pinch if they are so hard to drive -- I'm a bigot of course, but I put it down pro-type compression drivers.

[frenchmon]

OK, so I have been following this thread and wondering why all the focus is solely on the Pre-Amp for driving speakers.

I have 1 pre amp but 2 amps and 2 pairs of speakers. Amp A drives one set of speakers properly where Amp B does not. When I swap the speakers in my system, Amp B drives set 2 better than Amp A. But all 4 tests are using the same Pre Amp.

So why all the focus on just the Pre? Did anyone consider that the Amps may not be matched correctly with the speakers?

Were any tests done by running the source right to the Amps bypassing the Pre altogether?

My Counterpoint NPS400 does not drive my Dynaudio 82s the same as my Stratos, while the Stratos does not drive the Clearfields as good as the Counterpoint. Both using a VAC CLA1 MKII Pre Amp.

I find it odd that the Vincent drove my Canton Book shelves the ZU and Dyns, but the CJ cant drive the ZU, nor get bass out of my book shelves, and not as good as my Vincent when it comes to the Dyns.

[frenchmon]

'Mon, you're being mean, mean, mean to Mr. P who is a sensitive guy. (I'm glad to see him posting again, for sure.)

Were I anywhere near you guys I'd haul over both my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 and my Jolida passive pre.

The former is exceedingly neutral and solid state-like except that with vintage Amperex 'PQ' tubes it does add that fake ambiance you can get with tubes. The Jolida would be the truth-teller provided the power amps don't have unusually low input impedance.

One thing I wonder is how the Zu's can be worth a pinch if they are so hard to drive -- I'm a bigot of course, but I put it down pro-type compression drivers.

Ahhh Peabody will be alright! He and I are going to listen to some Canton Floor standers and perhaps some Revel speakers next Monday...that is if he don't kick my ass the next time he sees me.

[Ajani]

Gents I think you may want to tone down the discussion... I would hate to see Frenchy and Peabody stop being friends over a difference of opinion on Peabody's HiFi.

A couple of things to keep in mind: from what I've read (assuming I'm not mistaken) Zu speakers need proper matching to sound right also, from the Stereophile review, Peabody's CJ Pre is not plug and play and also requires careful matching...

I've never heard CJ gear, but based on the descriptions I've heard I wouldn't expect to like the sound of a CJ/Dynaudio Combo... (Bear in mind that I'm not a Dynaudio Fan since in my experience they've been too bass heavy and warm for my tastes)... So I could easily imagine the combo sounding as Frenchy describes... But of course that would likely come down to my own listening preferences, which are likely not the same as Mr Peabody...

I wish I could bring my Benchmark DAC1 over and hook it up as pre to see how the system would sound...

[harley .guy07]

Actually with the right gear and setup dynaudio's are quite detailed and while they do put out a good amount of bass for their size I would think that is a good thing as long as it is tight and detailed which I assure you it is with every Dyn speaker I have heard. But they are power hungry and when they don't get proper power that they need to do their job they let you know about it. I think that people are going to far with the CJ Dynaudio thing because I have heard his system myself and while it does have a laid back smoother presence to it which CJ is known for that is what Mr. Peabody was looking for when he switched from Krell to CJ in the first place and I listened to his system for quite some time with my Dyns and his and to me I never felt fatigued or that it lacked much in my opinion. Now in saying that I will say that for my personal tastes his system was more laid back than perhaps I would choose but I am not the owner of the equipment and from what other CJ owners and the reviews on CJ equipment I would believe that CJ is one of the tops for their type of equipment and people that know CJ know the sound character and are quite frankly looking for that type of sound while others prefer a more direct detailed approach. Just like I hate most metal dome tweeters or at least the ones on the speakers I have heard that are affordable for their inability to keep the fatigue factor down which is very important to me since I have very sensitive high frequency hearing and can hear higher frequencies than most people so I have to select speakers very carefully for this and also I wanted speakers that presented the sound very naturally which I believe the Dyn's do(my opinion). While others don't express the same opinion is the same as someones ears having a different hearing response than I do which is perfectly normal and everyones ears are different. I think the fact that Frenchmon is a different person with different hearing and also different tastes in what they want their system to sound like plays a big factor in why they chose the equipment they did and why they stand behind the way it sound just like I stand behind mine.

[harley .guy07]

But in saying what I just said Jack powers his Contour 1.8's with a tube integrated and seems to like it so that tells me that Dynaudio is more open to different kinds of setups than I even thought they were. And jack is right its all a matter of opinion and that is what it is. this is turning into a Ford and Chevy talk and you know nobody comes out a winner in those arguments.

[Jack in Wilmington]

But in saying what I just said Jack powers his Contour 1.8's with a tube integrated and seems to like it so that tells me that Dynaudio is more open to different kinds of setups than I even thought they were. And jack is right its all a matter of opinion and that is what it is. this is turning into a Ford and Chevy talk and you know nobody comes out a winner in those arguments.

I know this whole discussion has got me wondering what my Dyns would sound like with a different amp. Would Frenchie find my system similar to Mr. P's? When I bought my 1.8's I took my Jolida down to the sellers house to hear what they sounded like together. He had a Krell 400i, so I got to hear the tube sound as well as the solid state. He lived in an apartment so we couldn't turn up the volume. His amp had mine out watted 5 to 1, but I still liked the sound of my tubes. And in the end that's all that mattered.

[Mr Peabody]

0+There's a difference in "driving" the Zu and achieving a "good" response. The Krell, or CJ are capable of driving the Zu to deafening levels, but neither seem to derive an acceptable bass response from them. My CJ has good bass with Dynaudio or the few models of Klipsch I've played with. Any one wanting to know what I like in the CJ can search for my thread when I bought the preamp. No one in their right mind would doubt Krell's ability to produce bass.

Frenchie and I pick up on different aspects of sound that's why we differ on speakers as well, if we both like a brand it must be good to be sure He focused on the Vincent slamming bass but missed the CJ giving the bass more of a pace and detail. It's about what you listen for. He missed the Vincent putting the sax and trumpet in center stage where the CJ put them to opposite left/right positioning a bit to side of center. I can't start replacing my gear over the Zu, I like my system and would prefer getting rid of the Zu. The CJ does fine with the Dyn's, I would like to maybe find something in speakers equally as capable but a bit more open and efficient than the Dyn's.

[frenchmon]

I know this whole discussion has got me wondering what my Dyns would sound like with a different amp. Would Frenchie find my system similar to Mr. P's? When I bought my 1.8's I took my Jolida down to the sellers house to hear what they sounded like together. He had a Krell 400i, so I got to hear the tube sound as well as the solid state. He lived in an apartment so we couldn't turn up the volume. His amp had mine out watted 5 to 1, but I still liked the sound of my tubes. And in the end that's all that mattered.

Jack....it not so much as warm sound verses a lively sound as it is as much as about a system the caliber of MrP's Preamp not being able to produce bass and just a fuller open sound all around. If Some one has a system that is warm and they like it....thats fine. Also remember the bass on my Cantons??? It was not there that night and you quickly pointed that out to me....but I called you and said the bass is back in my system...you remember that?

But I started this thread sharing with what I heard from the two systems...the VIncent made the CJ sound boring, uninspiring. There was no snap nor slam in the CJ once we heard what the Vincent could do. The bass was very light weight like it was not getting enough power to get it to open up like a bass is suppose to do with the CJ. I was just as surprised as MrP that Vincent brought life where there had been none. I even said that at Peabodys. I've heard many warm systems that had bass and slam and snap....and may I add...Peabody wants to conjure up this idea like the Vincent had no pace...that is far from the truth. The rate of movement was great and tight...but while the strained soundingl bass from the CJ had a tad...and I say tad more finer detail, the Vincent was still very great in that regard as well.

When I think about that night...I and MrP was amazed at the performance of the Vincent and its ability to do what it did...make the ZU and the Dyns sing the way it did. I came expecting the complete opposite. I was just hoping the Vincent could at least hang with the CJ and not get embarrassed...I even told MrP that as he was switching them out....I was thinking If the Zu did not sound good with the CJ and the bass was not opening up I assumed it would be even worse with the Vincent. It was the CJ that had the Pedigree and the Legacy so I naturally thought my Vincent would sound more of the same as the CJ in MrP's system. Boy was I ever wrong.

[harley .guy07]

that seems to be the problem, every time you find a speaker that is more open it is missing something somewhere else like the bass or inner detail. I know when I visited you talked about the New Dynaudio's that you have heard but that was a while ago I know they just came out with a new focus line or at least have done upgrades and they also have the confidence and other lines but most of them are the price of cars but I would wonder if saving your bones for one of Dynaudio's own more upscale models give you want you want. You said you listened to the first gen focus and thought that they were too polite and that is also what I have heard of some of the other people talk of their more affordable lines(even though there is nothing about Dynaudio that is affordable new), but that is not you talking there that is people just talking but I would wonder how the confidence C1 would do in your room on your setup. I have been told it puts out the bass for a smaller speaker and has the openness and detail that possibly the more affordable Dyns just don't have. Just an idea.

[Poultrygeist]

Zu's are bottom slot ported and this granite slab improved their bass response.

[Ajani]

I can't start replacing my gear over the Zu, I like my system and would prefer getting rid of the Zu. The CJ does fine with the Dyn's, I would like to maybe find something in speakers equally as capable but a bit more open and efficient than the Dyn's.

Yep... it would not make much sense to replace your electronics to suit the ZU (unless you recently won the lotto and forgot to share with the rest of us)...

So what speakers have you heard with CJ that really got you excited? I suspect the best option is to visit as many CJ dealers as you can and listen to the speakers they match with CJ...

[LeRoy]

maybe the Zu Audios are just finicky picky speakers that need just the right thing to make them sound good, that would sure explain why so many are on the gon for sale or at least they were a short time ago. As for audio opinions I would of had to have been there myself to get the full effect of what both of you are saying but it sounds like that both of you have different tastes and that is that. Frenchmon says he likes the sound of his Vincent and Mr. P says he preferred the CJ. I have heard one of the systems and while it did have a different sound character than I am used to it also offered something that I was not expecting and while I love the sound of my Dyn's in my system they did have soundstage depth and bloom unlike my system. I just wish I could have been there to give my 2 cents and also to have been able to put my Nuforce in the mix as well.

Hi Harley,

Earlier this year I got an opportunity to listen to the Zu's. Its the model that was being put on sale for about a grand but I forget the model number but I know it was the same one that Mr. P has.

Anyway, I took by Rega Brio 3, all of 49 WPC, and tried to drive the Zu's...well that was a mistake because it just sounded awful.

My local audio buddy was driving the Zu with a Naim Pre and bi-amped them with Naim Amps as well... if memory serves correct..the combination was about 130 WPC. Now that sounded much better than with the Rega but for my tastes there was nothing about the Zu that compelled me to rave about the experience or want to go buy some. To me ears, they are just the flavor of the week kind of audio experience...

So, different electronics will either flatten, reduce, or open up the audio presentation and man there are just toooo many variables in this audio game.......I think its just plain difficult to try and pre-determine a synergistic paring....

[harley .guy07]

I do believe you have a good point there. I have spent many years putting different combos together and have either been surprised or let down but in the end when you find the gear that you like and have spent that much money on it would not be a wise decision to change it for a certain speaker unless that speaker has proven itself worthy without a shadow of a doubt. I have seen too many people buy the Zu's then a couple of months later put them on Audiogon because they thought they liked them at first then after time living with them they got fatiguing or they just did not deliver the goods like others out there. I have actually never heard them but from what I am gathering from the well known sources that I know they are kind of a flavor of the week thing and some people liked the flavor and some didn't. I will say from what I have read that they would not be for me but I am not one to totally smash a component either so I will let the Zu lovers love their speakers and I will continue to love the sound of my Dyn's

[Poultrygeist]

The Zu house sound ( and it is a house sound since all models share the same basic 10" full range driver ) is not for everyone.

"Zu is a somewhat old fashioned sound that goes back to the days of tubes where tone, color, micro-dynamics and organic flow were valued. where Zu is modern is with its insistence on full bass coverage and to be able to crank the wick without apparent compression." - Srajan Ebaen

Due to the slotted finger ports on the bottom, set up can be problematic. The most common errors people make is that they aren't spread far enough apart, don't toe them in hard, fail to set the gap and place them on carpet. The latter two greatly affect bass response.

I tried to show the set up gap with my Zu's placed on granite plinths but posting pictures here from my gallery is always hit or miss. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.

[frenchmon]

Zu is modern is with its insistence on full bass coverage and to be able to crank the wick without apparent compression

Can you flesh this out a bit? The Vincent tube pre was able to drive the ZU with no problems at all.

[harley .guy07]

the Zu audio's woofers are made by Eminence which makes drivers for guitar and bass guitar cabinets mostly and from what I understand the Zu's 10" driver for there speakers are a modified version of one of their full range guitar speakers with a bass throw like one of their bass guitar speakers and from what I can tell you from the past is that most of their guitar speakers like an overdriven pre tube or hot sound in order to get them to bark or sound the way they were intended and that might be what is going on here is that the drivers in the zu are liking the hotter or higher driven sound with your vincent instead of the CJ or Marantz Preamp the Mr. P has or the other people have tried them with. The fact is most guitar and bass guitar amps with tubes are pushed harder and are driven hotter than home tube gear is to either get distortion for the sound they want or a form of overdrive that makes the speaker more edgy sounding for blues or light rock or just plain drives the speaker harder for more musical impact off of the instrument which might not work in some home audio gear as well. After doing some research and having good experience with guitar and bass guitar amps and cabinets I am just throwing this in as an idea for why they might be so picky with some tube gear and some SS for that matter. I know some will disagree and others might agree but it is just an idea.

[Poultrygeist]

frenchie,

That's a quote from Srajan of 6moons fame.

The bandwidth of the Omen Def is 30-25hz. Seldom does a string bass play a note below D which has a frequency of 36hz. Bass is one of the strong points of Zu speakers but if those finger ports can't breathe the Zu's become sealed speakers.

[frenchmon]

frenchie,

That's a quote from Srajan of 6moons fame.

The bandwidth of the Omen Def is 30-25hz. Seldom does a string bass play a note below D which has a frequency of 36hz. Bass is one of the strong points of Zu speakers but if those finger ports can't breathe the Zu's become sealed speakers.

Well I stuck my finger in the ports of MrP's Zu's so they where not blocked. What preamp are you driving your Zu's with? And what is it that it has that makes it able to drive them when others fail? I have been told mine may be high current or hot or super charged. Is your super charged or hot? And if it is hot is that a bad thing?

I am stumped to why mine did and Peabodys didn't. He has very good mono amps which are more that capable, and I would think his preamp would be too. It does not matter the character of the preamp which is very warm....but even with the thick warmth of the CJ pre...why would it not drive the Zu properly?

[E-Stat]

with Conrad Johnson mono blocks, T+A CDP, ZU speakers and Siltech cabling. I knew the Vincent performed well in my system, but you really dont know what you have until you stack it up and shoot it out with other gear...

How did you reverse phase when comparing the CT-6 to the Vincent? Virtually all C-J line stages invert phase which makes comparisons to other line stages a bit more complicated. My exposure to them is somewhat limited, but I can tell you the ART II is superlative.

rw

[frenchmon]

How did you reverse phase when comparing the CT-6 to the Vincent? Virtually all C-J line stages invert phase which makes comparisons to other line stages a bit more complicated. My exposure to them is somewhat limited, but I can tell you the ART II is superlative.

rw

MrP did the switching...dont know if he did...nor if we needed to.

[E-Stat]

MrP did the switching...dont know if he did...nor if we needed to.

The easiest way is to swap the leads to speakers. Did he have to pause at either speaker before listening to the other choice?

C-J's choice to invert phase is rarely found. Not a wrong decision per se when you read their explanation here - but one not commonly shared elsewhere. I'm 99% sure that yours does not invert phase. Nor do either of mine.

rw

[frenchmon]

The easiest way is to swap the leads to each speaker. Did he have to pause at each speaker before listening to the other choice?

C-J's choice to invert phase is rarely found. Not a wrong decision per se when you read their explanation here - but one not commonly shared elsewhere. I'm 99% sure that yours does not invert phase. Nor do either of mine.

rw

Thanks for this information E-Stat....this is what the CJ web site says.

Q. How do I know if my conrad-johnson component is phase inverting?
A. Phase information on conrad-johnson products is in all but the earliest conrad-johnson owner’s manuals (PV1,PV2, PV3, MV45 and MV75). Early conrad-johnson preamplifiers were phase correct (with the exceptions of the PV3 and the PV4 which inverted phase of line-level inputs). From the PV7 and the Premier 7 on, all conrad-johnson brand preamplifiers (both tube and solid-state) have been phase inverting in the line-stage. All three pre-preamplifiers (HV1, HV2 and Premier Six) were phase inverting. All conrad-johnson power amplifiers, tube and solid-state, are phase correct except the Premier 350.

This is very interesting and has me wondering now.

This is what he did. He unplugged his preamp from the amp and CDP by reaching behind the preamp and feeling where each was plugged. Then he left the pluggs from teh CDP and Amps sitting there as he pulled the CJ preamp out and slid the Vincent in after I told him where the Vincent stages where. HE never said anything about the CJ being out of phase. I dont think Peabody has had his CJ out of phase all this time...naw...I dont think so, but I will email him and ask him.

[frenchmon]

The Vincent does not invert phase....so if he had his gear hooked up as if it was in phase, and then hooked mine up the same way...that explans it....boy MrP would know about the phase im sure but he never ever touched the speaker cable at all.

[E-Stat]

I dont think Peabody has had his CJ out of phase all this time...naw...I dont think so, but I will email him and ask him.

If a phase change was not made between each swap of line stage, one would expect to hear those kind of differences reported. Even when comparing the same preamp and the effects of inverted phase.

rw