• 06-24-2010, 05:36 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 3LB
    why? this is one of the few times that we're all, for the most part, in agreement.

    Get us out of Afghanistan now.

    +1 on this comment, I was completely baffled at the move.




    Quote:

    thing is, Americans always want to be perceived as the "good guys" and win the war. This is another instance where we can't have our cake and eat it too. We aren't really willing to do what it would take to win there. Sometimes you just gotta cut your losses.
    We are also dead afraid of being seen as weak in front of our enemies. It is this kind of pride that always gets our fanny in a crack. Sometimes it is better to be looked at as wise and smart, than just a prideful bully with very large guns.
  • 06-28-2010, 07:39 AM
    markw
    Yeah, we're winning their hearts and minds, aren't we?
    "Eight Arab, five Pakistani and two Afghan militants were killed when bombs they were making exploded prematurely inside a mosque in eastern Afghanistan, the interior ministry said on Sunday."

    Click here for more details.

    Boy, talk about being hoisted by ones own petard. Now, I really don't have problems with suicide bombers. I just don't like when they take others with them.

    Remember, we have to give them two weeks notice before we raid a house...
  • 06-28-2010, 08:49 AM
    3LB
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    We are also dead afraid of being seen as weak in front of our enemies. It is this kind of pride that always gets our fanny in a crack.

    Vietnam kinda blew holes in the theory that we'd always win because our hearts were good and pure and God (the blonde one) was always on our side, and that we'd surgically invade your country, kill they bad guys and give your children leftover spam and chocolate bars on the way out... The backlash from losing gave us a complex for a decade and made Pres. Carter (a former US Navy officer) afraid to use it even when he needed to. The whole Iran hostage crisis was blamed on Vietnam failure, since we showed the willingness to back out in disgrace, we made ourselves vulnerable to third world terrorism (of course the part where we secretly backed ruthless blood-thirsty dictators in the Middle-East, not to mention the ones in Central and South America, had nothing to do the third world's growing hatred of us).
  • 06-28-2010, 09:22 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 3LB
    ...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir TtT
    The bottom line is Afghanistan is an unwinnable war. We are wasting soldiers and money fighting it just to save our face, a face that will not be saved when all is said and done.

    thing is, Americans always want to be perceived as the "good guys" and win the war. This is another instance where we can't have our cake and eat it too. We aren't really willing to do what it would take to win there. Sometimes you just gotta cut your losses.

    And the other thing is, to "win" the Afgan war in military terms would be to loose it, arguably.

    There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and their problem with the West is that many of them perceive that we are waging a war on Islam. To conduct an unlimited military action in, say, Afganistan, would be to confirm this perception to the rest.

    The biggest contributing factors have been past mistakes of American and British foreign relations. These mistakes go away back: they include the UK's Balfour Declaration, unconditonal support of Israel, the Suez invasion, support for the late Shaw of Iran, and more recently, the invasions of Afganistan and Iraq. Of course we can't make the past go away, however we need not only to not repeat past mistakes, but also to remedy them in some degree.
  • 06-28-2010, 09:28 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    unconditonal support of Israel.


    That's pretty much it in a nutshell. And all this crap will never end as long as the US remains firm on this issue.

    And just exactly what does the US get in return from Israel? Nothing that I see. Enlighten me.
  • 06-28-2010, 09:30 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    That's pretty much it in a nutshell. And all this crap will never end as long as the US remains firm on this issue.

    And just exactly what does the US get in return from Israel? Nothing that I see. Enlighten me.

    The value of Israel as a Western ally has depreciated considerably since the end of the cold war -- in fact it's pretty close to zero.
  • 06-28-2010, 09:41 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    The value of Israel as a Western ally has depreciated considerably since the end of the cold war -- in fact it's pretty close to zero.

    Ally to do what? They can't defend themselves, how the hell would they ever help us out? We send all the money and weapons....they send us worldwide grief in return from all the Arab Nations. They would not exist if we were not there all the time to hold their little useless hands.
  • 06-28-2010, 12:22 PM
    3LB
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    Ally to do what? They can't defend themselves, how the hell would they ever help us out? We send all the money and weapons....they send us worldwide grief in return from all the Arab Nations. They would not exist if we were not there all the time to hold their little useless hands.

    Unwaivering, unconditional support of Israel is rather Templar-esque, don't you think? Even contemporary conservative christians who claim no ties to the Masons still believe in a religious reverence for all things Israel (the chosen people), lest we fall out of favor with God (still, the blonde one). Even though the Jews railroaded and killed Jesus, many Christians still think they need to hedge their bets.
  • 06-28-2010, 12:43 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    Ally to do what? They can't defend themselves, how the hell would they ever help us out? We send all the money and weapons....they send us worldwide grief in return from all the Arab Nations. They would not exist if we were not there all the time to hold their little useless hands.

    Oh boy do I agree with you on this, and I even support Israel. However, their stance and action are becoming dangerous to our security. Being a supporters does not mean giving them a pass on everything they do. They really need to prove to me they want peace with the Palestinians, as I am not convinced up to this point.

    What confuses me is how folks really think that we should support Israel without expecting anything in return from them. Their blatant disrespect of Obama and Biden is absolutely inexcuseable. I still support Israel, but it sure in the hell ain't unconditional.
  • 06-28-2010, 12:52 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Oh boy do I agree with you on this, and I even support Israel. However, their stance and action are becoming dangerous to our security. Being a supporters does not mean giving them a pass on everything they do. They really need to prove to me they want peace with the Palestinians, as I am not convinced up to this point.

    What confuses me is how folks really think that we should support Israel without expecting anything in return from them. Their blatant disrespect of Obama and Biden is absolutely inexcuseable. I still support Israel, but it sure in the hell ain't unconditional.

    No reason for confusion: certain people, i.e. those running for Congress, get plenty from the pro-Israeli interest groups, e.g. AIPAC who fund ultra-Zionist lick-spittle and counter-fund any candidate who is the least critical of Israel. It cost a lot of money to get elected to Congress -- and they who pay the pipers call the tune.
  • 06-28-2010, 12:54 PM
    bobsticks
    Y'all would appreciate Israel more if'n y'all had some stock in General Dynamics... :yikes:
  • 06-28-2010, 02:51 PM
    3LB
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Y'all would appreciate Israel more if'n y'all had some stock in General Dynamics... :yikes:

    you might be onto something there...as always, follow the money
  • 06-28-2010, 05:25 PM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Y'all would appreciate Israel more if'n y'all had some stock in General Dynamics... :yikes:

    Teva Pharmaceuticals is one of my customers, but then they also have an office nearby.
  • 06-28-2010, 06:54 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Y'all would appreciate Israel more if'n y'all had some stock in General Dynamics... :yikes:

    I have divested stock from several very successful companies because I didn't like some of their practices. I could have made a ton of money, but that was not more important than my principles. I thank God I am not a whore for money, and cannot be played that way.
  • 06-28-2010, 08:37 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    And just exactly what does the US get in return from Israel? Nothing that I see. Enlighten me.


    I really enjoy Israeli couscous. It's a great alternative to heavy starches and can be flavored in many truly spectacular ways.
  • 06-29-2010, 03:00 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    I really enjoy Israeli couscous. It's a great alternative to heavy starches and can be flavored in many truly spectacular ways.

    Alrighty then, Unwavering Support it is!!
  • 06-29-2010, 07:12 AM
    bobsticks
    Well there's two sides to every story...I'm just sayin'...
  • 06-29-2010, 07:22 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Well there's two sides to every story...I'm just sayin'...

    I have tried that line on my wife to no avail.
  • 06-29-2010, 07:49 AM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    I have tried that line on my wife to no avail.


    Lol, yeah, it doesn't work real well in these parts either.
  • 06-29-2010, 03:07 PM
    Ajani
    Very interesting thread, Feanor. So here are my thoughts on a number of the points discussed so far:

    1) McChrystal had to be fired. Obama would have zero credibility as Commander-In-Chief, if he allowed a subordinate to publicly disrespect his administration. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the boss, but for McChrystal to allow his men to show such utter contempt for the Obama administration is absurd. The only reason to allow such contempt to breed is if you plan to overthrow your boss, and since I doubt that was McChrystal's intention, then I just don't see why he allowed it.

    2) Afghanistan hates America (OK, that's a generalization but I think you all get the basic point): So there is no point hanging around and trying to be "heroes". Cut your losses and let them sort themselves out.

    3) Historically, America has had way way way too much involvement in the affairs of foreign countries: Arming and training psychotic A$$-Clowns around the world, during the Cold War and then casually withdrawing from those regions when Russia stopped being a threat to America. So there are legitimate reasons why foreign countries have issues with America, but that does not excuse those countries for harboring terrorists intent on killing Americans...

    To give you an example of how difficult it would be for America to win the "hearts and minds" of many foreigners, consider my humble little country: Jamaica. We just had a month long war in our capital city to capture and extradite our most dangerous drug kingpin to the US. The US wanted him, so we had to hand him over. Great. Here's the issue: Where do Jamaica's gangs and the Kingpin (Dudus) get their guns from? We don't make guns in Jamaica. Worse yet, examine the history of when the Kingpin's father rose to power in the 70's. During a period when our government was openly planning on turning Jamaica into a Democratic Socialist state and strengthening our relationship with Cuba, all of sudden the opposition gangs found an influx of US guns... hmmm...

    There is no way for the US to suddenly win over hearts and minds of foreigners, when many of us are worse off for prior US involvement in our affairs. The best approach would be to focus on protecting US soil and leaving other countries the hell alone. Let the Afghans kill themselves in civil war, since that's what their people want to do...
  • 06-29-2010, 03:18 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ajani
    Very interesting thread, Feanor. So here are my thoughts on a number of the points discussed so far:

    1) McChrystal had to be fired. Obama would have zero credibility as Commander-In-Chief, if he allowed a subordinate to publicly disrespect his administration. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the boss, but for McChrystal to allow his men to show such utter contempt for the Obama administration is absurd. The only reason to allow such contempt to breed is if you plan to overthrow your boss, and since I doubt that was McChrystal's intention, then I just don't see why he allowed it.

    2) Afghanistan hates America (OK, that's a generalization but I think you all get the basic point): So there is no point hanging around and trying to be "heroes". Cut your losses and let them sort themselves out.

    3) Historically, America has had way way way too much involvement in the affairs of foreign countries: Arming and training psychotic A$$-Clowns around the world, during the Cold War and then casually withdrawing from those regions when Russia stopped being a threat to America. So there are legitimate reasons why foreign countries have issues with America, but that does not excuse those countries for harboring terrorists intent on killing Americans...

    To give you an example of how difficult it would be for America to win the "hearts and minds" of many foreigners, consider my humble little country: Jamaica. We just had a month long war in our capital city to capture and extradite our most dangerous drug kingpin to the US. The US wanted him, so we had to hand him over. Great. Here's the issue: Where do Jamaica's gangs and the Kingpin (Dudus) get their guns from? We don't make guns in Jamaica. Worse yet, examine the history of when the Kingpin's father rose to power in the 70's. During a period when our government was openly planning on turning Jamaica into a Democratic Socialist state and strengthening our relationship with Cuba, all of sudden the opposition gangs found an influx of US guns... hmmm...

    There is no way for the US to suddenly win over hearts and minds of foreigners, when many of us are worse off for prior US involvement in our affairs. The best approach would be to focus on protecting US soil and leaving other countries the hell alone. Let the Afghans kill themselves in civil war, since that's what their people want to do...

    I think I agree with you basically on all points. Although I can't speak specifically to your suggestion that US operatives armed Jamaican gangs.
  • 06-29-2010, 03:31 PM
    Ajani
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    I think I agree with you basically on all points. Although I can't speak specifically to your suggestion that US operatives armed Jamaican gangs.

    The problem for the US is that whether they were directly involved or not, the guns still came from the US. So they will always be blamed by many persons for that. Afghans would have to resort to killing each other with sticks and stones, if they didn't have US and Soviet machine guns at their disposal.
  • 06-29-2010, 03:41 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ajani
    The problem for the US is that whether they were directly involved or not, the guns still came from the US. So they will always be blamed by many persons for that. Afghans would have to resort to killing each other with sticks and stones, if they didn't have US and Soviet machine guns at their disposal.

    Well, if those "many persons" insist on not blaming the people that use the guns at least they should be specific about blaming the U.S. weapons manufacturers of the weapons. Blaming all 308 million of us is stereotypical...and ignorant.
  • 06-29-2010, 03:48 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Well, if those "many persons" insist on not blaming the people that use the guns at least they should be specific about blaming the U.S. weapons manufacturers of the weapons. Blaming all 308 million of us is stereotypical...and ignorant.

    Indeed. US-made weapons are far too expensive to arm very many of the insurgents of the world. Why, even the Russian manufacturer of AK-47's is thinking of shutting down due to cheap foreign competition.
  • 06-29-2010, 04:54 PM
    Ajani
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Well, if those "many persons" insist on not blaming the people that use the guns at least they should be specific about blaming the U.S. weapons manufacturers of the weapons. Blaming all 308 million of us is stereotypical...and ignorant.

    Agreed. Unfortunately in the real world, people make unfair generalizations. The same way that many persons just assume that every Jamaican smokes ganja. You might be surprised how many educated persons I came across in North America who just assumed that I must have a stash somewhere.

    Guns are always going to be a difficult issue... I don't believe in banning guns, but I always support stricter gun control legislation. The same effort that the US makes to ensure that drugs don't enter their borders should be put into ensuring that guns don't exit them. The guns for drugs trade in many Caribbean and South American countries would be crippled if the access to guns was cut off.

    Oh and just to be clear: I don't think that the US gun manufacturers should receive more blame than the psychos who kill people with those guns.