JFK Assassination

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Originally Posted by GMichael

Will this be the new halftime show. The Stones (& heads) will roll!

Sorry, not the greatest thing to joke about, but it was calling me.

There's enough blame to go around to any country or any system. I have my complaints about our system. I feel that I was treated unfairly in the past. But can any country or system say that they make no mistakes? If so, let them be the first to throw stones.

As for JFK, we will most likely never know the truth. If it ever does come out, anyone who really cared will be gone.

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Hello GMichael and thank you for joining the discussion. I am not America bashing - this started as a discussion about the JFK assassination. Hope you can follow it! It now seems to have spread rather wider. The BOT has disappeared again! How are the snow drifts?

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

Don't be such a victim! I didn't say that the USA was responsible - I was stating the reason for the high levels of unemployment - reunification, which was a one time happening.

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If it weren't for the "evil" US governnment and it's involvment, that wall would still be there and much more of Europe would be behind it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

Hello GMichael and thank you for joining the discussion. I am not America bashing - this started as a discussion about the JFK assassination. Hope you can follow it! It now seems to have spread rather wider. The BOT has disappeared again! How are the snow drifts?

Bernd

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The BOT is making a comeback. Much warmer today. We got lucky. We were on the fringe and only got about 5-6 inches. No biggie.
I try to stay out of political discussions. I have enough stress at work.

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Originally Posted by markw

If it weren't for the "evil" US governnment and it's involvment, that wall would still be there and much more of Europe would be behind it.

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If I remember correctly it was the peaceful march of the east german people night after night that gave way to the wall. You are fantasising about that one.You keep forgetting-I was there when the wall came down.
Why are you so aggresive. I make some points that are based on my opinion and experiences and you seem to feel the need to defend the great US without having experienced what I have experienced.
If you want an argument you will not get one from me as there are always two sides to the coin and I have no desire to convince you otherwise.
Enjoy your life

Peace

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

If I remember correctly it was the peaceful march of the east german people night after night that gave way to the wall. You are fantasising about that one.You keep forgetting-I was there when the wall came down.
Why are you so aggresive. I make some points that are based on my opinion and experiences and you seem to feel the need to defend the great US without having experienced what I have experienced.
If you want an argument you will not get one from me as there are always two sides to the coin and I have no desire to convince you otherwise.
Enjoy your life

Peace

Bernd

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Boy, you are hubris presonified. I'll simplify the concept even more, and I'll try to use little words this time. If it was not for the US propping your deballed country up all those post war years and keeping that bear to the east off your sorry, anti-semitic asses, you would all be communist.

So, while it may have been that last walk in the night that signified the end of that era, it was the US that did all the work building up your country and protecting you for the years preceeding that.

Now, I know this sticks in your anti-American craw but, like it ot not, it's the truth and all your posturing won't change history.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMichael

The BOT is making a comeback. Much warmer today. We got lucky. We were on the fringe and only got about 5-6 inches. No biggie.
I try to stay out of political discussions. I have enough stress at work.

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I am glad you got off lightly. It's warmer here, too. I don't like political discussions either, but I think I have been damaged genetically to stand up for fairness and the right of the individual. I hate being dictated and lied too by the people who should serve us.

Bernd

I never rationally understood the arguments in favor of the death penalty. If we could lock-up our criminals in less than comfortable environments with no chance of parole, and no chance of killing a wrongfully convicted person, it sounds better than the alternative.
We've had cases in history where convicted people who were later found innocent spent years on death row, and if not for administrative delays would have wrongfully been put to death. Clearly human error (judgement, bad lawyers, or otherwise) has a part at least sometimes.
I guess some people feel executing an extremely small number of innocents is justified.

But when I hear a story about some sick crackpot raping an 11 year old girl and her sister before murdering them, the cold hearted bastard in me has a hard time rationalizing why this person deserves another second of life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

I am glad you got off lightly. It's warmer here, too. I don't like political discussions either, but I think I have been damaged genetically to stand up for fairness and the right of the individual. I hate being dictated and lied too by the people who should serve us.

Bernd

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I think all governments have their problems. I would never trust any politician from any country. (or heads of companies while you're at it)
The US seems to get an unusual amount of attention for it's short comings. And when we do good it gets downplayed. After a while we get a persecution complex.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

I never rationally understood the arguments in favor of the death penalty. If we could lock-up our criminals in less than comfortable environments with no chance of parole, and no chance of killing a wrongfully convicted person, it sounds better than the alternative.
We've had cases in history where convicted people who were later found innocent spent years on death row, and if not for administrative delays would have wrongfully been put to death. Clearly human error (judgement, bad lawyers, or otherwise) has a part at least sometimes.
I guess some people feel executing an extremely small number of innocents is justified.

But when I hear a story about some sick crackpot raping an 11 year old girl and her sister before murdering them, the cold hearted bastard in me has a hard time rationalizing why this person deserves another second of life.

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It's a hard line to walk, for sure.
Death = bad
Seems simple. But then add:
Person rapes & kills children = bad
So? raping & killing children = death?
Geez A person could go crazy

Look at that woman who drowed her 3 children. They say she's crazy (duh.. what was their first clue?) Does that mean she's ok to the rest of the world? Should she be killed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

I never rationally understood the arguments in favor of the death penalty. If we could lock-up our criminals in less than comfortable environments with no chance of parole, and no chance of killing a wrongfully convicted person, it sounds better than the alternative.
We've had cases in history where convicted people who were later found innocent spent years on death row, and if not for administrative delays would have wrongfully been put to death. Clearly human error (judgement, bad lawyers, or otherwise) has a part at least sometimes.
I guess some people feel executing an extremely small number of innocents is justified.

But when I hear a story about some sick crackpot raping an 11 year old girl and her sister before murdering them, the cold hearted bastard in me has a hard time rationalizing why this person deserves another second of life.

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Well put and no he doesn't deserve a second life. Just lose his freedom. None of us are that pure to have the right to take a life-None.

Peace

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMichael

I think all governments have their problems. I would never trust any politician from any country. (or heads of companies while you're at it)
The US seems to get an unusual amount of attention for it's short comings. And when we do good it gets downplayed. After a while we get a persecution complex.

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Like I said I am (and many europeans) very grateful for the effort of the US during the Blockade and the losses sustained for bringing Adolf to book. I think the attention comes from the lies that are exposed in recent history and the idea of a World Police man.
Over here we have as many corrupt politicians as anywhere else, but somehow I feel more comfortable with Blair or Merkel then with Bush & co.

Peace

Bernd

...you seem to be a reasonbly intelligent person...let me ask this...Re: books that document these "mistakes"...What book do you think would sell better? One that uses editorializing, ponticifating and finger pointing in an effort to exploit the tragedies that sometimes happen as a result of an imperfect justice system or one that simply documents all the times they (police/prosecutors, the justice system in general) get it right. Which one actually represents the bigger representative number?

Much more emotion (and therfore money) involved in the former, after all who wants to read an almanac with nothing more than facts and figures. Sad to say, history books don't fare well on the best seller lists.

And please don't mix POWs in with a description of the general prison population...it seems many of our convicts have a better life while visiting the old Graybar than they do on the outside...and I doubt they have a problem with their food service. Oh, yeah...there was that warden who served nothing but bologna sandwiches; but I know pepole who just eat nothing but bologna sandwiches, or PB&J, or tuna salad...or horrors, nothing but Big Macs...Now that should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

jimHJJ(...three-squares, and there's TV, and the gym, and the library...the only chain-gangs I've seen have been picking up litter on highway medians, no rock piles, probably no chains, just Bubba on a horse, with a 12ga....and besides it ain't supposed to be Club Med...)

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...you seem to be a reasonbly intelligent person...let me ask this...Re: books that document these "mistakes"...What book do you think would sell better? One that uses editorializing, ponticifating and finger pointing in an effort to exploit the tragedies that sometimes happen as a result of an imperfect justice system or one that simply documents all the times they (police/prosecutors, the justice system in general) get it right. Which one actually represents the bigger representative number?

Much more emotion (and therfore money) involved in the former, after all who wants to read an almanac with nothing more than facts and figures. Sad to say, history books don't fare well on the best seller lists.

And please don't mix POWs in with a description of the general prison population...it seems many of our convicts have a better life while visiting the old Graybar than they do on the outside...and I doubt they have a problem with their food service. Oh, yeah...there was that warden who served nothing but bologna sandwiches; but I know pepole who just eat nothing but bologna sandwiches, or PB&J, or tuna salad...or horrors, nothing but Big Macs...Now that should be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

jimHJJ(...three-squares, and there's TV, and the gym, and the library...the only chain-gangs I've seen have been picking up litter on highway medians, no rock piles, probably no chains, just Bubba on a horse, with a 12ga....and besides it ain't supposed to be Club Med...)

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Reasonbly Intelligent????
I am offended now.
No, but seriously the sensational acounts always sell better. I just feel sad that a government can kill it's people in the name of Justice. Justice and punishment are two different things in my mind. And as a deterent it aint working. So why continue with it?
Good to converse with you. have you escaped the big white?

Peace

Bernd

The Plan!
You gotta love Robin Williams......
Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin
Williams to come up with the perfect
plan. What we need now is for our
UN Ambassador to stand up and
repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to
argue with this logic!)

"I see a lot of people yelling for peace
but I have not heard of a plan for
peace. So, here's one plan."

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their
affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega,
Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those 'good ole boys', we will never
"interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want
us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking
through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave.
We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be
gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are.
They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days
unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be
allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide
here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab
drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If
they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise.
This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require
a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have
to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for
their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go
somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling
up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will
not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement
or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them are stolen or given
to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need
the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a
good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can
call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is
ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want
a piece of me?' "


I love this, by golly Robin I think you've got it!!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

Justice and punishment are two different things in my mind. And as a deterent it aint working. So why continue with it?
Good to converse with you. have you escaped the big white? Peace

Bernd

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As it stands, the operative opinion seems to be, let the punishment fit the crime...when the majority of American public decides otherwise, their elected officials will be pressured to change things...

I don't know, about the deterent factor...crime stats depend on interpretation in many cases...numbers can be fudged and statistics skewed depending on the point one is trying to support...

Nope, winter has returned...big time...approx. 18 inches or so in my neck of the woods...I love it! Central Park got about two feet of the stuff...I know it's an audio forum, but I love the silence afforded by a thick blanket of snow. The aftermath is the usual cabaret...especially for those with SUVs who think they are invincible or the folks who think the gas pedal can power them out of anything!

My Jeep is in the garage, the drifts in my driveway have to be attended to...then engage 4LOW at a crawl and I hope to be be mobile sometime before Friday...'til then it's mass-transit...

jimHJJ(...finally a real chance to test my new tires...)

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Originally Posted by GMichael

The Plan!!!!!

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jimHJJ(...where do I sign?...LOL-PIMP funny...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

jimHJJ(...where do I sign?...LOL-PIMP funny...)

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I'll sign it!

Can you imagine the names the "world" would call us if we actually enacted it? The hatred for America would be louder than ever. :confused:

JSE

Someone posts something controversial, everyone else begins to spew, and before long, the thread is so far off track, that without the initial post, one could hardly guess the real subject...

So who did whack JFK? I have my suspicions...

JFK and his Attorney General brother were putting it hard to organized crime IIRC.

JFK refused to support the Bush-instigated Bay of Pigs invasion. Yes, that's Dubya's daddy - the Cubans went there in two ships, the Barbara (BHWB's wife) and the Zapata (GHWB's oil company).

JFK refused to expand the US role in Vietnam - no bigger war, no bigger war profits.

A VERY short time before he went to Dallas, JFK made a speech at an Ivy League school, in which he announced that he was going to blow the lid off an unnamed conspiracy.

JFK was whacked in Dallas, LBJ's turf, and John Connaly, an old political rival of LBJ, almost got whached too. As one writer said, it was not the first time that LBJ's political career was furtherd by the untimely death of a rival. He was found just after the shooting, hunkered down in his limo with some pillows.

Some assassination researchers (a profession with a VERY high mortality) have stated that certain goings-on in Dallas in the days preceding the assassination, looked very much like a typical CIA op. Remember who headed the CIA at that time?

Some names stand out, but all in all, I think the Military-Industrial Complex had him taken out, so that he could be replaced with a man who would open the flood gates to death, and obscene profits. You already know the rest...

Laz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trollgirl

Someone posts something controversial, everyone else begins to spew, and before long, the thread is so far off track, that without the initial post, one could hardly guess the real subject...

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I guess you can count on something like that happening when some eurotrash takes what would otherwise be an interesting discussion and tries to twist it into America bashing. ...and then tries to deny it.

whats funny is if you ask an eighteen to twenty four year old female about the kennedy assasination and they will ask: Ted Kennedy got shot ? LIke Really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

As it stands, the operative opinion seems to be, let the punishment fit the crime...when the majority of American public decides otherwise, their elected officials will be pressured to change things...

I don't know, about the deterent factor...crime stats depend on interpretation in many cases...numbers can be fudged and statistics skewed depending on the point one is trying to support...

Nope, winter has returned...big time...approx. 18 inches or so in my neck of the woods...I love it! Central Park got about two feet of the stuff...I know it's an audio forum, but I love the silence afforded by a thick blanket of snow. The aftermath is the usual cabaret...especially for those with SUVs who think they are invincible or the folks who think the gas pedal can power them out of anything!

My Jeep is in the garage, the drifts in my driveway have to be attended to...then engage 4LOW at a crawl and I hope to be be mobile sometime before Friday...'til then it's mass-transit...

jimHJJ(...finally a real chance to test my new tires...)

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Well keep warm and stay safe. I agree that a blanket of snow brings some magic.

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markw

Boy, you are hubris presonified. I'll simplify the concept even more, and I'll try to use little words this time. If it was not for the US propping your deballed country up all those post war years and keeping that bear to the east off your sorry, anti-semitic asses, you would all be communist.

So, while it may have been that last walk in the night that signified the end of that era, it was the US that did all the work building up your country and protecting you for the years preceeding that.

Now, I know this sticks in your anti-American craw but, like it ot not, it's the truth and all your posturing won't change history.

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I will write this very slow as I don't think you read very fast. When did I deny that the US helped West-Germany? That is exactly what a decent victorious country should do and help to create a stable Europe.
I am not an anti semite neither is anyone I know.How can I be blamed for what a minority in my country did 60 years ago? I think we all have done some despicable acts towards our fellow man-The US is not exempt from this. What did the US do for East-Germany?
You want me to believe that it took the mighty US 28 years to bring the wall down. LOL.
As for Europe "dealing" with Iraq-what was to deal with. No WMD (maybe they are hidden on the moon),no evidence of AL-Queda just-surprise surprise OIL.
If regime change was or is so desireable why not announce that before you invade and why leave Zimbabwe,North Korea,China,Cuba etc. alone.Do you agree with their way of Government or could it be that they have no OIL.
As for you calling me Eurotrash you have your opinion of me, I will live with it, and I think very highly of you too.
America is a beautiful country, but it is spoilt by people like you and your attitude.
And since this is an Audioforum I leave you with a little recommendation to listen to "Lou Reed's-New York". Here is a fellow american talking about things I wouldn't dream to bring to a discussion table. Maybe you'll listen to him.

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trollgirl

Someone posts something controversial, everyone else begins to spew, and before long, the thread is so far off track, that without the initial post, one could hardly guess the real subject...

So who did whack JFK? I have my suspicions...

JFK and his Attorney General brother were putting it hard to organized crime IIRC.

JFK refused to support the Bush-instigated Bay of Pigs invasion. Yes, that's Dubya's daddy - the Cubans went there in two ships, the Barbara (BHWB's wife) and the Zapata (GHWB's oil company).

JFK refused to expand the US role in Vietnam - no bigger war, no bigger war profits.

A VERY short time before he went to Dallas, JFK made a speech at an Ivy League school, in which he announced that he was going to blow the lid off an unnamed conspiracy.

JFK was whacked in Dallas, LBJ's turf, and John Connaly, an old political rival of LBJ, almost got whached too. As one writer said, it was not the first time that LBJ's political career was furtherd by the untimely death of a rival. He was found just after the shooting, hunkered down in his limo with some pillows.

Some assassination researchers (a profession with a VERY high mortality) have stated that certain goings-on in Dallas in the days preceding the assassination, looked very much like a typical CIA op. Remember who headed the CIA at that time?

Some names stand out, but all in all, I think the Military-Industrial Complex had him taken out, so that he could be replaced with a man who would open the flood gates to death, and obscene profits. You already know the rest...

Laz

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Hi Laz,

Good of you to bring it back on track. But this is how conversations develop. I find it amazing that the good citizens of the US just swallow the official explanations of the JFK killing.There should have been an outcry. The house select committe report is so full of holes and inconcistencies that it reads like fiction. They talk about JFK's brain being fixed in Formaldehyde. It is well documented that there was hardly any brain matter left in the Presidents head.Just take a look at the Zapruda film and see they spray of Brain matter. So if they talk about a fixed brain-whose are they talking about?
That alone is doubt enough to ask more questions.

Peace

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMichael

The Plan!
You gotta love Robin Williams......
Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin
Williams to come up with the perfect
plan. What we need now is for our
UN Ambassador to stand up and
repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to
argue with this logic!)

"I see a lot of people yelling for peace
but I have not heard of a plan for
peace. So, here's one plan."

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their
affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega,
Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those 'good ole boys', we will never
"interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want
us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking
through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave.
We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be
gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are.
They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days
unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be
allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide
here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab
drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If
they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise.
This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require
a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have
to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for
their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go
somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling
up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will
not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement
or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them are stolen or given
to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need
the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a
good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can
call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is
ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want
a piece of me?' "


I love this, by golly Robin I think you've got it!!!!!!!!

---

Ha,Ha,Ha,-Problem solved US Style.

Unfortunatly we do not have the luxury to live in a "Splendid Isolation-We don't need no-one" Place. This is our planet given to us not stamped,"Made in USA" or some other place. So we need to share it's people,resources and help your fellow man. Not ride roughshot over people who believe something different. On top of that, it's our home-and it's the only one we've got. Moving is not an option.

Peace

Bernd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

Ha,Ha,Ha,-Problem solved US Style.

Unfortunatly we do not have the luxury to live in a "Splendid Isolation-We don't need no-one" Place. This is our planet given to us not stamped,"Made in USA" or some other place. So we need to share it's people,resources and help your fellow man. Not ride roughshot over people who believe something different. On top of that, it's our home-and it's the only one we've got. Moving is not an option.

Peace

Bernd

---

...George Washington, who in his farewell said, "...avoid foreign entanglements..."

"We the people..." didn't listen, pity I think...

"We the people..." could easily be self-sufficient, drop our unemployment rate, etc. and tell the rest od the world to PO...

"We the people..." should have been on that road all along, instead "We the people..." became fat , dumb and happy on the road to complacency.

"We the people..." only have ourselves to blame...but I'll be d@mned if, after all we have done in our misguided attempt to make this stinkin' planet a better place, we will now become the whipping boy for a world frustrated with itself; one that holds us responsible for it's history and shortcomings...

jimHJJ(...I recall a Randy Newman song..."Political Science"...)

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now