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  1. #1
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    ***** unions - all of 'em.

    Out of state electricians and tree repair companies were asked to come help with repairs, particularly in te hardest it shore areas, and this is the welcome they get?.

    We need all the help we can get and THIS is what they do to us?

    Gee, thanks, guys. We really appreciate you looking out for us.
    Last edited by ForeverAutumn; 11-02-2012 at 08:35 AM. Reason: Repaired URL link

  2. #2
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    How about that, we do agree on something.

    Unions were needed 100 years ago. Now they have caused these kinds of issue as well as the fact that Americans can no longer afford to buy American made goods.

    When I was a Toolmaker, I worked in a Union Shop for 3 months. It was a joke. So many people doing nothing or not helping others because being kind and helpful was not in their job description.

    I have a work ethic where I do the best work I can, always. I was building some stamping dies for Grumman and the current Mail Delivery trucks when the owner's son came up to me and started questioning why I was machining and squaring certain surfaces. I asked if I was over the alloted time for the work and he said "No, you are well under the time quoted". So I asked what the problem was and he told me "You are making your work look too good and other customers might want their stamping dies to look the same".

    At that moment, I put my tools away, closed my box, handed him my apron and told him that he did not want me working there if I was required to do sub-quality work and I walked out and got another job.

    The only real reason unions are helpful today is to slightly curb the greediness of rampant Capitalism which today means Immoral yet Legal.

  3. #3
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    By the way, you hosed the link and need to remove a set of HTTP://""" from the front of the URL in order to see the article.

  4. #4
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    I repaired the link for Mark. See? Mods can be helpful.

    Mark how did you and your family fare? Is everyone okay? Are trees and homes around you still standing and dry?

  5. #5
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    link didn't work, but hang in there man. Glad you're ok. When our power was out for days and trees were down in my yard, on my house and across my driveway after Ivan, the best pick-me-up I discovered was the little camping coffee pot/perculator given to me by my in-laws. After firing off the grill and brewing a pot for friends and family, a little normalcy returned.

    Also, the Flying Burrito Brothers' song "Sin City" became my tongue-in-cheek anthem (replaced "earthquake" with "hurricane" - this ol' hurricane is gonna leave me in the poor house).

    Good luck.

    edit: I see you fixed the link while I was constructing my response, FA. Good work!
    Last edited by dean_martin; 11-02-2012 at 11:17 AM.

  6. #6
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    I worked in a union steel mill in the late 70's until the early 80's, right about the time Brasilian and Chinese steel imports were undercutting us big time. Te "old-tilers" would yell at us newbies to slow down so they didn't have to work hard. End result, we could have done at least four times te work without breaking a sweat and holding back also made the job boring as hell.

    Also, at that time, management was "forcing" the union inspectors to pass inferior products to keep production numbers up. The ultimate result of this was we lost customers.

    When contract time came up, we could all see the handwriting on the wall: We were lucky to still have jobs.

    Well, doncha know that the old-timers decided they wanted more money. Us newbies warned this might not be te best idea but we got outvoted.

    Rather than face a strike, the company gave in to their demands.

    But, within six months, te layoffs started and within a year and a half, the plant was closed down. There were four wave of "layoffs" and after that, a vacant toxic waste site where the plant used to be.

    Dunno if I can totally blame the unions for everything but, in my heart, I truly believe they forced the company's hand and speeded up the process.

  7. #7
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I can't agree about unions. The working environment would not be very safe if it were not for unions. American would have never enjoyed the standard of living they had if it were not for unions. As union have declined, so have wages in this country.

    Crooked union leaders are a problem, but not unions in general.

    I am sorry about what is happening, but this is reality. If New Jersey is a union state, then union employees should be the only workers that can assist. That is the rules that are negotiated, and that is the reality folks have to live with. Personally I think right to work rules have assisted in keeping folks poor, and all one has to do is look at the standard of living in right to work states, and you can see what I mean.
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    Unions or not, there is no excuse to refuse help in times of disasters. It is pure BS and the agreements should be broken to help unfortunate victims out.

    It's the same as going to Home Depot and asking for help and they tell you Sorry it's not my isle, instead of just getting you some help.

  9. #9
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Terry, can you say "state of emergency"???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I am sorry about what is happening, but this is reality. If New Jersey is a union state, then union employees should be the only workers that can assist.
    If you honestly believe this, I obviously gave you too much credit for intelligence.

    But, then again, it's not your state that's under seige. .

  10. #10
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    By the way, you hosed the link and need to remove a set of HTTP://""" from the front of the URL in order to see the article.
    I just tried it again. It worked fine.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    I just tried it again. It worked fine.
    Look up, FA fixed it for you


    ForeverAutumn I repaired the link for Mark. See? Mods can be helpful.

    Mark how did you and your family fare? Is everyone okay? Are trees and homes around you still standing and dry?

  12. #12
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I can't agree about unions. The working environment would not be very safe if it were not for unions. American would have never enjoyed the standard of living they had if it were not for unions. As union have declined, so have wages in this country.
    ...
    I agree and it's basically beyond dispute. Unions are interest groups and act in their narrow self-interest very often -- an that makes them no different from private businesses. However on the whole they moderated the balance between businesses and labor for the benefit of the greatest number.

    The risk for Americans (and Canadians) today is the failure to perceive that the balance of power has shifted from working people, (the proverbial middle class), to the very wealthy. The decline of union power has been one factor in facilitating that shift; (there are others).

    Globalization has exposed North American and European workers to people willing to working for < 10 on dollar. Given the magnitude of this differential it just isn't plausible to whole blame the greed of unions for last 30 years of stagnation, and 10 years of decline, in the median income.

    Business have been quick to exploit this fact and consequently manufacturing jobs (in particular) have moved off-shore. Since manufacturing jobs were/are the most heavily unionized, wage & salary rates have fallen in general, Further, employers, (business & government), have been not slow to demand concessions from remaining unions and non-unionized employees under the plausible threat of off-shoring or out-sourcing.

    Is it inevitable the North American wages will decline to the levels in, say, China & India? What's to prevent it? Don't forget if we're talking about "averaging" pay across the NA, China, and India, that the average is going to look more like the latter than the former. Equalization will inevitably occur, but is there the alternate possibility that NA wages will be relatively stable while Chinese/Indian wages will rise to approach them? What conditions would make this possible?

  13. #13
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    If you honestly believe this, I obviously gave you too much credit for intelligence.

    But, then again, it's not your state that's under seige. .
    My name is not Terry, and I don't like to be called that. State of emergency does not cancel out labor agreements PERIOD.

    My state experiences earthquakes which can be as devastating as a hurricane. I was in the Bay Area for the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake, and was in Southern California during the 1994 Northridge earthquake, so I know first hand how disasters can affect a person.

    Mark, I have lived just fine without your credit for intelligence. As a matter of fact, I prefer that you keep your credit. You most definitely need it more than I do.
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  14. #14
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Guys, let's not get personal. If you want to discuss whether the union was right in their actions, or the validity and usefulness of unions in general that's fine. If you want to start calling each other names that's not fine. Settle down.

    I think that in this case, the union certainly could have bent the rules for the sake of getting their community back on it's feet a little faster. If I were Mark, I'd be mad as hell too.

  15. #15
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    I saw that later. Thanks, FA

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Look up, FA fixed it for you


    ForeverAutumn I repaired the link for Mark. See? Mods can be helpful.

    Mark how did you and your family fare? Is everyone okay? Are trees and homes around you still standing and dry?
    We fared well, Much, much better than most.

    Monday,lots of sideways rain and serious wind blowing but that was it. We lost a big branch off a big tree in our front yard but, aside from a few blinkouts Monday evening, we had power constantly. The rest of the town went dark but our little congested six-block area seems to be lucky about these things. I'd say we were blessed but that would start a fight.

    Tuesday AM, we woke to no phone, internet or cable TV. Gotta love comcast's triple play. Cell phone service was out as well, both ATT and Verizon..Our Verizon hot-spot worked about three minutes over those two days.

    Our neighbor's POTS worked, though. Fortunately, the trusty old rooftop TV antenna survived and we went back to OTA.

    When we saw what Sandy did to the rest of the area we were horrified. The famous Jersey shore was pretty much devastated. Most boardwalks are gone, Hoboken was buried in a flood of equal parts water and sewage, Many, many parts of Jersey were without power. It was like a disaster movie with the most realistic special effects I've ever seen, but with some pretty bad acting.

    Gas is at a premium, not so much because it's in short supply (it is) but the pumps to get it out of te storage tanks to te pups are electric and there ain't none of that.

    Thursday AM, we woke up and all was back to normal, thank God. Literally millions are still witout power.

    My BIL, who was in central jersey and ad no power, called and was trying to reach us since Tuesday but we had no phones. He had cell service but we were deaf. He wanted to come up with his three kids, grand baby,and a sister in law to get warm and take showers. What normally is a 45 minute drive took in six hours, most of that was waiting for gas. Lines for that everywhere. We now have a full house,.

    Thanks for asking.

    [edit] as of 3:30 Friday afternoon, Novemner 2, 1.4 million are still without power. They've been working on this for two days so far.
    Last edited by markw; 11-02-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  16. #16
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Mark, we may have our differences, but I would never wish this on anyone. I hope that you and your family continue to do well and that life returns to some sort of normalcy soon.

  17. #17
    RGA
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    I am not sure I understand the issue here

    "Upon arriving at a staging area in Virginia, crews were held in place pending clarification of documents received from IBEW that implied a requirement of our employees to agree to union affiliation while working in the New York and New Jersey areas. It was and remains our understanding that agreeing to those requirements was a condition of being allowed to work in those areas."

    So why not sign the page and agree to the requirements?

    But then it says that the Union would accept help from anyone whether union or not

    "Decatur Utilities wrongly assumed they would have to agree to the union contract before traveling to New Jersey to help with recovery efforts. The IBEW said in times of crisis, help is welcomed from union and non-union utility workers."

    So why is the union being blamed - it was this private company that got it mixed up and made a WRONG ASSUMPTION not the union?

    And the Union leader said this

    "IBEW local leaders in New Jersey have reiterated what has been the long standing record of our union in times of crisis all help is welcome and we pull together with everyone to meet the needs of the public. We have communicated this to the office of New Jersey Governor Christie as well."

    Seems that "Other utility crews from Alabama are still helping with storm cleanup. Huntsville Utilities said they were not turned away and are in Long Island, New York

    So exactly how is the Union responsible for this? Seems like the private company needed an excuse not to go (probably hurts their bottom line to give away free service so now they can keep their profits and blame the union for a "mix-up."

  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    I am not sure I understand the issue here
    ....
    "A man (markw) hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." ~ Paul Simon
    Last edited by Feanor; 11-03-2012 at 05:29 AM.

  19. #19
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    The article that is now posted, that RGA has quoted from, is not article that was originally posted. The article has been revised and now includes a lot more information.

    Anyhow, RGA, the original article basically stated that a crew arrived to help and was told that if they don't join the union their help is not needed and they were sent home.

  20. #20
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Again, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    The article that is now posted, that RGA has quoted from, is not article that was originally posted. The article has been revised and now includes a lot more information.

    Anyhow, RGA, the original article basically stated that a crew arrived to help and was told that if they don't join the union their help is not needed and they were sent home.
    Your skills in translation are greatly appreciated.

    Maybe now you can see where my attitude comes from. This place is like a nature show. Note how the alpha hyena jumps in and takes a bite, runs away, and then the lesser ones jump in to take a bite. What's really funny though is that bill obviously read the original article but just had to jump back in to interject a smarmy remark after his leader jumped into the fray.
    Last edited by markw; 11-03-2012 at 07:02 AM.

  21. #21
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    Your skills in translation are greatly appreciated.

    Maybe now you can see where my attitude comes from.
    Actually no I can't. You attitude is based on incomplete and misinformation. This is why one should not shoot from the hip while half cocked...the bullet could hit your own foot.
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  22. #22
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Obviously, somebody said something to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Actually no I can't. You attitude is based on incomplete and misinformation. This is why one should not shoot from the hip while half cocked...the bullet could hit your own foot.
    As if they drove all the way from Alabama just to decide to make up a story and go home without getting paid.

    ...and my attitude is based on experience. You ever worked in the Jacob Javitz center in NYC? You can't lay an extension cord. You have to call union electrician to plug it in. Yeah, labor unions suck.

  23. #23
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    The article that is now posted, that RGA has quoted from, is not article that was originally posted. The article has been revised and now includes a lot more information.

    Anyhow, RGA, the original article basically stated that a crew arrived to help and was told that if they don't join the union their help is not needed and they were sent home.
    Okay that is fair enough - I'd be pissed too but the media seems to suck. Putting out disinformation the first time then it's edited.

    Now that it seems to be a private sector company that screwed up (maybe deliberately to save a buck and blame the unions - I I wonder if anyone will RANT that Private sector non union shops basically decided not to go into save some money!!
    Last edited by RGA; 11-03-2012 at 08:26 AM.

  24. #24
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    The article that is now posted, that RGA has quoted from, is not article that was originally posted. The article has been revised and now includes a lot more information.

    Anyhow, RGA, the original article basically stated that a crew arrived to help and was told that if they don't join the union their help is not needed and they were sent home.
    Of all that can be said about the Hurricane Sandy situation, I wonder why Markw chose to comment on a (minor and ultimately incorrectly reported) union involvement aspect?

    The truth of the matter is that many unionized workers have gone out of their way and even put themselves in danger to help victims.

  25. #25
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    OMG! I really don't believe this. Millions of people are still without power, several states are in shambles, thousands are homeless and have lost everything, and here you all are nitpicking over what a news article may or may not have said.

    First of all, you are all smart enough to know not to believe everything you read. Second of all, why does it matter whose fault it is? Help arrives, confusion followed, Help went home. Let's not lay blame, let's get Help the hell back to do what they offered to do in the first place...HELP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Of all that can be said about the Hurricane Sandy situation, I wonder why Markw chose to comment on a (minor and ultimately incorrectly reported) union involvement aspect?
    Seriously Feanor? If London were devastated by a tornado and you read the original article about a crew being sent home by the local union, you wouldn't have been outraged? I sure would have been. And how was Mark to know that the article wasn't telling the full story?

    How about a little empathy for our AR brother who has just been through a friggin' hurricane! Try putting yourself in his shoes.

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