Where's my BASS?

Here's the situation. I have pair of LS-12 Vega's that I use for music only. Right now their hooked to the B speaker selection on my Denon 2805. I've gone through 3 different recv. with these speakers and they have always been hooked to the B speaker selection for music listening only. I've had these speakers for about 4 years and they still sound great but I had a little revelation a couple of days ago. I was browsing this site and decided to look up my LS-12's under the audio reviews. There's like 80 reviews and they all talk about the bass these speakers can produce. I've always had these babies paired with a 12" powered sub and didnt give it a second thought. I decided to hear the bass for myself and to my suprise I'm not impressed. I've selected NO for sub on my Denon, moved the speakers around, checked the connections and everything else I could think of. I need some feedback on this one. I'm assuming their just under powered. Does having two sets of front speakers divide the power on your recv., since I usually listen to both sets of fronts at the same time. The highs are there but the bass is not impressive if I dont use a sub with em. Any suggestions or comments?

I think the problem is that you got used to the sound of the subwoofer with the speakers. The people who posted all those reviews probably dont use a sub, so by comparison, those speakers have more bass than they're used to.

It could also be room positioning, but i think that more than likely, it's a matter of what you've become used to

Are the speakers set to small or large. This could be the problem. Not sure if it's an option under speaker B but thought I would mention it.

to disconnect the other pair, and moving the Vegas to speaker A position? One of my friends once had a receiver which produced such bad results on the speaker B connection he never used it.

Technically, the A/B speaker selection on a Denon doesn't work like an A/B speaker selection on the majority of receivers I've used in the past. On the Denon the A/B is for the selection of rear speakers. Personally I always thought this was fairly odd but that's just the way it is at least on the models I've used from Denon. Knowing this there are a couple of things for you to check. First off go to the onscreen menu and make sure that you have your rear speakers set to Large. The only other thing I can think of is to make sure that you listen to 5 channel stereo. If you listen to DPL2 or some other format I'm pretty sure you'll just be getting the information that the processor sends to the rear channel. In five channel stereo your rears should get everything. Depending on your set up you may have to manually disengage the center and mains to just use the Vegas.

Just my best guess based on what you've posted.

jc

You say you've never heard 'em without the powered sub on the other receivers? You really aren't in any position to judge them on a stand alone basis and now fault the receiver.

Your words:

"I've gone through 3 different recv. with these speakers and they have always been hooked to the B speaker selection for music listening only."

and...

"I've always had these babies paired with a 12" powered sub and didnt give it a second thought. I decided to hear the bass for myself and to my suprise I'm not impressed."

Odds are that you would be disappointed with this "no subwoofer" setup with any receiver now. I'd say the speaker/receiver combination is fine but your expectations are a bit unrealistic.

Jim Clark is mistaken. The Denon 2805 has outputs for front A&B speakers as well as outputs for surround A&B speakers (side & rear). I looked at the CV LS12 specs and it's an 8 ohm speaker, 98db efficiency and freq resp. of 28-20K. I believe the Denon's 135W/ch should be able to handle the load unless your 'A' speakers are very demanding (panels, others w/85db or less efficiency) with impedance under 4 ohms. I personally wouldn't drive both sets in any surround mode. Even at 135W/ch, nine speakers would be pretty demanding on the receivers power supply, especially if you're trying to pull some bass out of the two pairs of mains. Are the CVs bi-ampable?

I have a Denon AVR-3300 and use my 'B' speaker option to connect differnet sets of speakers as alternates for HT, or for 2 channel listening. I've never tried driving both A&B sets at the same time. First, I believe it would compromise the overall sound quality. Second, I don't trust Denon's fan. The AVR-3300 was designed with a variable speed fan which was supposed to adjust according to demand on the amps. Mine would whine and you could hear it spinning up and down, very annoying. Denon had a fix and repaired it under warranty.

Thanks for all the input guys. As far as set up goes everything seems to be set correctly. The Denon can support 2 sets of fronts and 2 sets of rears as stated. My fronts are of course set to large. As far as moving them around and trying new positioning I am very limited to where they can go. When sitting on my couch the speakers sit directly to the left and right of me and thats their home. Turning off my sub and playing 2 channel through the CV's only has not changed the bass output either. And no their not bi-ampable. I like the idea that I've got so used to listening to them with a sub that they just dont sound right without one. I think I was too quick to judge. I'm sure if I listened without a sub for a few days I would probably start to get adjusted to their sound. But why would I do that.


Kfalls, thanks for the advice on not driving both sets of fronts at the same time. Bad habit I guess. I'm just now starting to get really serious about my listening. My quantity over quality is slowly starting to change.

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Originally Posted by kfalls

Jim Clark is mistaken. The Denon 2805 has outputs for front A&B speakers as well as outputs for surround A&B speakers (side & rear). I looked at the CV LS12 specs and it's an 8 ohm speaker, 98db efficiency and freq resp. of 28-20K. I believe the Denon's 135W/ch should be able to handle the load unless your 'A' speakers are very demanding (panels, others w/85db or less efficiency) with impedance under 4 ohms. I personally wouldn't drive both sets in any surround mode. Even at 135W/ch, nine speakers would be pretty demanding on the receivers power supply, especially if you're trying to pull some bass out of the two pairs of mains. Are the CVs bi-ampable?

I have a Denon AVR-3300 and use my 'B' speaker option to connect differnet sets of speakers as alternates for HT, or for 2 channel listening. I've never tried driving both A&B sets at the same time. First, I believe it would compromise the overall sound quality. Second, I don't trust Denon's fan. The AVR-3300 was designed with a variable speed fan which was supposed to adjust according to demand on the amps. Mine would whine and you could hear it spinning up and down, very annoying. Denon had a fix and repaired it under warranty.

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Well that's good news. My last experience with a Denon product was the 3802 and the A+B selector is most definetly for the rear surrounds. I never understood why someone would just have to have dipoles and directs set in the rear. I'm glad to see that the design went back to something that makes more sense. Thanks for the correction.

jc

Sometimes it's just the room or placement. Have had trouble getting good bass in this apartment no matter what I try as far as equipment + placement (limited choices).

Got so fed up once, I gave all my speakers to my brother and started over again. The speakers have great bass at his house hooked up to a small receiver with the tone controls set flat. I've tried a few different receivers / amps with the same results, wires have all been changed or checked over the last few years (no mistakes)so I can't blame my equipment. Using a powered sub now and things are much better.

The CVs are known for punchy bass output. The 12" woofers don't go down that low for their size though, The CVs are more about high power handling and efficiency than wide frequency response (that's why they make the models with a 15' woofer or two + sell big powered subs). A good powered sub will put out deeper, more solid bass than the 12" CVs.

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Originally Posted by royphil345

Sometimes it's just the room or placement. Have had trouble getting good bass in this apartment no matter what I try as far as equipment + placement (limited choices).

Got so fed up once, I gave all my speakers to my brother and started over again. The speakers have great bass at his house hooked up to a small receiver with the tone controls set flat. I've tried a few different receivers / amps with the same results, wires have all been changed or checked over the last few years (no mistakes)so I can't blame my equipment. Using a powered sub now and things are much better.

The CVs are known for punchy bass output. The 12" woofers don't go down that low for their size though, The CVs are more about high power handling and efficiency than wide frequency response (that's why they make the models with a 15' woofer or two + sell big powered subs). A good powered sub will put out deeper, more solid bass than the 12" CVs.

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Thanks for the reply. I'll always have a powered sub so I guess I really cant complain. It's funny that after 4 years I just now noticed this. It's because I've always played them with a sub and I'm sure I always will.