Where do Totem speakers rank with other high end speakers?

[RGA]

I recently came across some ads boasting about 3D sound? Does such thing exist or just a marketing ploy? I am not aware of any good speaker manufacturers coming out with 3D sound and this makes me suspicious of the claim. If 3D sound does truly exist, how does it sound different compared to the conventional sound? What does it take to make 3D sound, if it is true? If 3D sound is"invented" some day, does that mean all existing speakers, including high-end ones are obsolete? Thanks for all comments.

No I am no engineer (or as I call them failed scientists - this is a reference to the Big Bang Thery Show so please don't take offense resident engineers).

3D sound is what is heard in the room. Until it is heard you don't really know what is missing and very little out there IME has done it. I didn't hear it for the first 15 years of auditioning gear. I also think many audiophiles and many reviewers have yet to really experience it. So reviewers feebly attempt to create words on page to try and describe what it is we're hearing and we use words like organic, 3 dimensional, whole, right. The problem is that these words get whored out and thrown around for stereos and products that are not doing these things. Many speakers/systems will create a wall of sound pretty much regardless of the music or recording played. You could make the case that this should be called soundstage depth or front to back staging rather than side to side staging. But I think it has more to do with dynamics, micro, midi, macrodynamics.

Fred Crowder of dagogo uses the following to describe what I describe as pressurization of instruments for a speaker to "create pressure gradients within the listening room which were noted as density changes in the air of the room." He notes that very few even large systems that he has heard have the ability to do this. And to me that is what creates a sense of 3 dimensionality to what we're hearing - the actual presence of an instrument that is standing right in front of you so that "live" and in the room.

This is different than "air" around instruments which IMO is an artifcat generate by the equipment - usually tweeters I suspect and it to me is a form of grain because in real life listening to real acoustic bands/symphonies there is no "air around the instruments."

It is also somewhat disc related because even those systems can't do it all the time, but they can do it some of the time with the recordings. Most systems never do regardless of the quality of recording. I have not heard many systems do it and they tend to cost quite a bit of money. There are so many attributes of sound and in the end what I most prize is a system that can differentiate recording qualities and ancillary gear, that doesn't sound fatiguing that covers most of the frequency spectrum, sounds very balanced not overdoing any one trait while also allowing you to sit back in the chair and let the music wash over you and be completely relaxed for say 5-6 hours day in and day out without drawing attention away from the listening to notice treble, midrange or bass issues. Many speakers tend to sound terrific in short auditions but after about 3 months they often get tiresome. The one that stands out from the crowd on the wall-o-speakers may end up being the most irritating down the line.

[Ajani]

Ajani what is interesting is that a NAD integrated (that gets TONS of good press) sounded broken on the AN E. Terry at Soundhounds usually tests everything that comes in the door on the AN E first because it will show up very fast the warts (which is why Hi-Fi Choice uses them). This does not necessarily the mean the speaker is perfectly accurate but that it is of high resolution which is not exactly the same thing.

Anyway, he demoed the NAD for me and I agreed 100%. We even switched the wires to make sure it wasn't out of phase. The Rotel RA-02 which is the same price and IMO even looks a bit better was vastly better. And you know I never make vastly better comments on $500 integrated amps because while better than a receiver receivers offer a lto of features value. But he was trying to put together a budget system with the cheapest AN E and the RA-02 wasn't bad actually. Wasn't bright, had decent bass, and for the money really impressed me. That is why a long while later when the RC 1082 was in the store I bothered to give it a more serious try. It did quite fine against a used highly regarded ARC preamp (the Rotel was actually quite a lot better - yes better than an ARC), and it was in line with a Sim Audio and Classe for similar money. The Rotel is a little lighter weight but also seems a little more strait up. The power amps were usually the strength of Rotel. I picked up a demo Rotel Power amp - still have not hooked it up - busy with the holidays. So I'll see how it goes. Basically the power amps tend to sound virtually the same - it's a power output upgrade as you move up the line. It should be good enough to not get in the way of the up stream and downstream gear too much. Though it still is SS so I'm nto expecting the world

My first "serious" HiFi was a NAD C352 Amp, NAD C521 CDP and Mission V63 Towers... Bought based really on excellent reviews of the individual components and a quick dealer demo... Eventually I found that I lost any desire to turn on my stereo (just dull as dishwater - very HiFi sounding, but didn't move or excite me in any way)... A quick change from the NAD to Rotel amplification and my Missions were singing like never before... I've had nothing but respect for Rotel since then...

[JoeE SP9]

Sorry RGA. You can have a soundstage (3D) with little or no dynamics, macro micro or (sic) "maestro".

A soundsatage is not related to or dependant on dynamics. Good dynamics, macro and micro will enhance a soundstage but neither is necessary.

A well recorded version of Pachelbel's Cannon is a perfect example. This piece has virtually no dynamics macro or micro. Nevertheless, a good recording of it demonstrates a good soundstage.

Of course all three together will provide a better listening experience.

[GMichael]

Come on guys... For all the harassment we give RGA, I suspect he makes far more effort to audition new gear than any of us...

We never audition the stuff he recommends, yet he actually makes the effort to check out a lot of the stuff we talk about it...

Note: I still don't think that a show is good enough to judge whether you like a piece of equipment, but he at least auditions new gear...

Hey, I like RGA and his posts. You may have missed some of the pro/anti-panel debates that went on here a few years back. Guess who was on the anti side most of the time.

RGA you like the Classe amps paired with Maggies?

[RGA]

Sorry RGA. You can have a soundstage (3D) with little or no dynamics, macro micro or (sic) "maestro".

A soundsatage is not related to or dependant on dynamics. Good dynamics, macro and micro will enhance a soundstage but neither is necessary.

Of course all three together will provide a better listening experience.

This is the problems with the words they're limited to definitions on a page. And relating an experience to the word is not easy to do. Some speakers will get the left to right thing down great. Others may get the layering front to back thing down but the "live" factor is a difficult one to express in words. Fred tried to relate it and it's not bad articulation but I'll have to continue to try and isolate what is and how to express it.

[RGA]

My first "serious" HiFi was a NAD C352 Amp, NAD C521 CDP and Mission V63 Towers... Bought based really on excellent reviews of the individual components and a quick dealer demo... Eventually I found that I lost any desire to turn on my stereo (just dull as dishwater - very HiFi sounding, but didn't move or excite me in any way)... A quick change from the NAD to Rotel amplification and my Missions were singing like never before... I've had nothing but respect for Rotel since then...

I have long felt Rotel was underrated - since the early 1990s because they were not "expensive enough" to be taken seriously. People had their Rotel stuff for over 30 years and they always seemed to offer more for less. It may be why they have survived longer than most competitors for the same money.

And it was never from the Crown school of amplifier design - a lot of other amps seem to me to be of that school.




GMichael
Classe is pretty decent with everything I have tried. Sim Audio as well. For Solid State.

[GMichael]

Joe?






Thanks for the update..

[Feanor]

...
Fred Crowder of dagogo uses the following to describe what I describe as pressurization of instruments for a speaker to "create pressure gradients within the listening room which were noted as density changes in the air of the room." He notes that very few even large systems that he has heard have the ability to do this. And to me that is what creates a sense of 3 dimensionality to what we're hearing - the actual presence of an instrument that is standing right in front of you so that "live" and in the room.

This "pressure gradiaents" stuff as the source of "3D: sound like BS. How ridiculously loud to you have to play to get pressure gradients? How come some "large systems" can do it and others not? I think this is a crock.

...
This is different than "air" around instruments which IMO is an artifcat generate by the equipment - usually tweeters I suspect and it to me is a form of grain because in real life listening to real acoustic bands/symphonies there is no "air around the instruments."
...

"Air" around the instruments is mainly just good resolution, not an artifact. Also, you need a good speaker certainly, but differences in "air" vary very much with the amplfier.

[RGA]

This "pressure gradiaents" stuff as the source of "3D: sound like BS. How ridiculously loud to you have to play to get pressure gradients? How come some "large systems" can do it and others not? I think this is a crock.

No it's not at loud levels - it's there regardless of level.

"Air" around the instruments is mainly just good resolution, not an artifact. Also, you need a good speaker certainly, but differences in "air" vary very much with the amplfier.

I believe it's an artificat of many systems - it's not heard in any live music and with high resolution systems that signature isn't present yet everything else is - it's seamless. The best argument Ihave read for this originated in Positive Feedback...

"Many listeners speak of a playback system's resolving power in terms of its ability to articulate detail, i.e. previous unnoticed phenomena [noticing more air for example]. However, it is more likely that what these listeners are responding to when they say such-and-such has more "detail" is: unconnected micro-events in the frequency and time domains. (These are events that, if they were properly connected, would have realized the correct presentation of harmonic structure, attack, and legato.)

Because these events are of incredibly short duration and because there is absolutely no analog to such events in the natural world and are now being revealed to them by the sheer excellence of their audio, these listeners believe that they are hearing something for the first time, which they are! And largely because of this, they are more easily misled into a belief that what they are hearing is relevant and correct. The matter is aided and abetted by the apparentness of the perception. These "details" are undeniably there; it is only their meaning which has become subverted. The truth is that we only perceive such "detail" from an audio playback system; but never in a live musical performance.../...Grain creates the perception of more events, particularly in the treble region, because they are made to stand out from the musical texture in an unnaturally highlighted form. In true high-resolution audio systems, grain disappears and is replaced by a seamless flow of connected musical happenings. [cf. "As Time Goes By" Positive Feedback Magazine, Vol. 4, No. 4-5, Fall '93]."

And I think you can see where this is in the market. Many speaker makers have have several lines. Not to pick on B&W but their entry speakers with Tweeter on top have a similar/same design as the next model up - but I remember readin their literature where it would talk about the superior tube tapering to reduce ringing. In other words if you buy the more expensive model it will reduce the ringing (which is tweeter induced grain). Reduced not cured I might add. So you keep going up the lines. Then in a few years there will be another fix with an entirely different technology that will be fixable from one line to the next. I don't know if that's how they still word things but it was there and it explained much to me. I would rather a tweeter design that doesn't create ringing in the first place. Why creat a problem and then a solution to fix the problem when it's not better than most of the plain jane silk dome. They have "air" as well. and that goes away in their upper models with better electronics. The micro events are less detached. So I agree with the above quotes for the most part.

[ken88]

I have come across a lot about this term " sound coloration". My understanding is the sound is not 100% "pure" (kind of distorted), if you know what I mean. Am I right in my assumption? My other question is: is it possible to obtain a good sound imaging and accurate soundstaging when you play the music in "surround sound mode" Thanks.

[Ajani]

Hey, I like RGA and his posts. You may have missed some of the pro/anti-panel debates that went on here a few years back. Guess who was on the anti side most of the time.

I remember RGA's extreme stance on panels and SS amps as well... But clearly he has come a long way... The last several months he has been raving about the Kingsound Electrostats and now has added the Maggie 1.7s... Even more interesting is that he now likes Rotel for cheap amplification, considering that Rotel makes very powerful SS amps - so essentially the opposite of the SET amplification he is fond of....

IMO, the more that persons really audition different gear, the less likely they will take a hard-line stance on any one technology... I suspect we could all find several examples of alternate tech that sounds great to us....

[JoeE SP9]

I have come across a lot about this term " sound coloration". My understanding is the sound is not 100% "pure" (kind of distorted), if you know what I mean. Am I right in my assumption? My other question is: is it possible to obtain a good sound imaging and accurate soundstaging when you play the music in "surround sound mode" Thanks.

Anything that's not 100% "pure" is by definition distorted. It's my understanding that sound coloration as a term is used to describe small deviations from the pure. Whereas bloated bass or strident highs are coloration their grossness makes "sound coloration" inadequate as a description.

IMO: An extra "shimmer" (probably tweeter resonance nodes ie:ringing) in a trumpet's tone is an example of what's meant when "coloration" is used as a descriptive term. When a trumpet sounds like a cornet that's "coloration". There are undoubtedly other and better explanations. That's all I've got right now.

Although it's late, I wish everyone a happy and prosperous year.

[Mr Peabody]

Coloration is typically thought of as a negative thing but I've come to realize that everyone does it, we in most instances will find it pleasing and the extent will never be known since we don't have the original performance as a reference. Coloration is to vary from the way the original signal should sound. A speaker or amp may introduce a bass hump or softer mids etc. with an attempt to please a potential buyer or just the way the manufacturer wants their gear to sound. The term "house sound" is applied to describe a sound character of a certain brand. I perceive coloration as just a varied response from neutral and not to do with distortion. In order to properly measure or define coloration we'd have to have a definite point of reference.

I have heard surround music sound good. Mostly from Blu-ray. The mix has to use the surrounds as merely ambience and spacial cues. I used to be dead against 5.1 music but have heard some mixes that have been fun, using surround and swirling effects. I can't accept this for serious listening but it's occasionally fun.

There is air around live instruments, especially, acoustic live. When listening to electronics I suspect when there isn't air, it's due to noise floor and the veiling effect that happens. What makes me say this is from my experience with power cords. One is not aware of their noise floor until it is reduced. The effect of the lower noise floor is a better since of ease and openness to the music. My interpretation of "air" is a presentation free of any sense of veiling or strain to what you hear. This may sound crazy to any one who hasn't had experience with hearing various brands and high quality gear.

[eisforelectronic]

I've gotten close to 10 years of listening pleasure from a pair of Totem Dreamcatchers.

[Geoffcin]

I've gotten close to 10 years of listening pleasure from a pair of Totem Dreamcatchers.

There ya go!

At the Home Entertainment show I remember Vince showing these off in possibly the worst way, and they STILL impressed!.

We were listening to the Forest & Rainmakers and he said "we shouldn't forget about the Dreamcatchers" I was a bit taken aback by that, as every demo I've ever seen done was going UP in price point. Nope, he was certain that it wasn't going to be a problem and it wasn't, as they sure displayed the Totem ethos of a big sound in modest sized speaker. In addition they have the same Totem quality build. Some would say that you pay a premium for that, but in my opinion buying quality is a frugal decision. If you amortize it over a decade of enjoyment then it was a good decision for sure!

[ken88]

Since I purchased the Sttaf, I am thoroughly enjoying the excellent sound quality coming out of these speakers. The more I listen the better it sounds!!! The soundstage is simply outstanding and the vocal is second to none when I compared to my previous speakers. As I said before, I feel being enveloped by the incredible superb musical reproduction coming from all directions. I am proud these speakers are being manufactured right here in Canada and persoanlly I feel they can match the best there is in the world.

[GMichael]

Since I purchased the Sttaf, I am thoroughly enjoying the excellent sound quality coming out of these speakers. The more I listen the better it sounds!!! The soundstage is simply outstanding and the vocal is second to none when I compared to my previous speakers. As I said before, I feel being enveloped by the incredible superb musical reproduction coming from all directions. I am proud these speakers are being manufactured right here in Canada and persoanlly I feel they can match the best there is in the world.

The Staff is one of the models I got to hear. They were very impressive. I could live with those for a long time.

[Ajani]

Since I purchased the Sttaf, I am thoroughly enjoying the excellent sound quality coming out of these speakers. The more I listen the better it sounds!!! The soundstage is simply outstanding and the vocal is second to none when I compared to my previous speakers. As I said before, I feel being enveloped by the incredible superb musical reproduction coming from all directions. I am proud these speakers are being manufactured right here in Canada and persoanlly I feel they can match the best there is in the world.

Excellent... Enjoy!

What gear are you using with the Totems?

I hope I'll get another chance to audition some Totems... I've heard them a few times with NAD and Arcam gear (neither of which are my choice of electronics) in Toronto and I wasn't exactly moved... I think my current gear would be a much better match for Totem...

[ken88]

I am using a Sony receiver 7.1 that can output 110 watt/channel (forgot the model #) which is adequate to power the Sttaf. My centre channel speaker is a Totem Mite T which is just as good as the Sttaf.

[ken88]

I recently came across a newly coined term called "high definition sound". Is there such a thing or another marketing ploy? Thanks for all your comments.

[GMichael]

I recently came across a newly coined term called "high definition sound". Is there such a thing or another marketing ploy? Thanks for all your comments.

Sounds a lot like the HD paint that Lowes sells.

[ken88]

I have seen some audio enthusiasts have 4 front speakers; are there any advantages other than having louder sound? Can you mix and match different brands to this kind of set-up or it is better to go with the same brand for the 4 front speakers? Thanks.