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Upgraded to Audio Note J - and other musings.
Listened to Magnepan, B&W, Audio Note on Friday as that was all that I could get time for. 7 hours of listening - minus a short lunch and a few cappuchino's and coffees provided by the great group at Soundhounds. However I have some musings on Totem, Paradigm Signature and Martin Logan as well
The store was much leaner and less stuffed with gear this time around. They now have a dedicated home theater room with a giant front projection system and all B&W all around in one room. I didn't spend time in there but the picture of the movie ICE AGE was impressive to say the least. The store had set it all up becuase one of the top B&W guys is flying down in a couple of weeks.
Please no flames this was my impressions of the speakers of the day and not an attack on other people's choices - not everyone is going to like the same things. Follow the bolded spots for discussion of a given speaker to the next bold for the next speaker.
I was extremely excited getting in the store and seeing a set of Magneplanars in used because I have no problem buying used and people rave so much about them that it would have been nice to hear them before upgrading just to save myself future second guessing.
The Maggies are not carried by my dealer though they were years ago and he even owned their top of the line for a short while. These were in on trade - looked like big White scratching posts. The model he told me but I forget - something with a 2 in it - it was supposedly the 2nd from the top. Quite large actually - wider than me and maybe ~5.5 feet high
I had them hook it up to the top of the line MF integrated and a very nice and rugged looking Rotel CD player - have not been paying too much attention to Rotel - but they're at least "looking" better these days.
I have to say it was a wildly different sound than the B&W and Audio Note speakers. If I stood up and walked toward them the sound became completely muddy like a towel had been put over the singer's mouth - so it is certainly very important to set them up correctly and and be seated at a reasonable height and distance.
I tried a few discs from Dianna Krall, Tina Turner and Jesse Cook. What was good was an incredibly clear vocal band and a ton of air - I mean a ton of air - plenty of wetness to vocals. The top and bottom end presented some problems - I was not convinced by the location of instruments as if they were on the panel rather than on a stage and the bass while seemingly deep simply had no impact whatsoever - I mean almost zero - it just seemed that on the drum kicks it was just lifeless to me. The music was clear but lacked the full body. It did far better on lighter guitar.
I do think I understand the appeal of em and why people like them and certainly I understand why some would gravitate to them - certainly against a lot of the boxed competition which are resonance inducers that tend to have a "thumpy" quality. Thus I can certainly understand why one would choose no bass impact over lousy bass impact - the latter is abnoxious - the former isn't missed if you don't know it's supposed to be there. There were qualities that reminded me of Electrostats and it did a lot of terrific things - in the end they're not for me. Not enough meat on the bones was a good analogy IMO.
The rest of the audiotons were don in the same room, same stands, same electronics - with slight adjustment where needed to satisfy a better posoition for the speakers. Those electronics were as follows:
Audio Note Meishu 8 watt SET amp - a lower end Audio note integrated running at $10,000Cdn - about twice as high as my 300 disc cd player and deeper by the looks of it.
Audio Note level 3 cd player - not sure of price - all cabling was Audio Note - with very heavy duty looking power chords directly into high grade wall sockets. Skylan stands used for all speakers.
Audio Note AN K/Spe was first up in line - this was to let me get accustomed to my speakers in a different room and with much superior gear. I listened for a good hour running through some selections from the discs I brought with me [Classic Yo-Yo, Dianna Krall "Girl in the Other Room", Tina Turner "Simply the Best", Santana "Shaman" and "Abraxas", Leahy "Lakefield, Acoustic Alchemy "Back on the Case", Sarah McLachlan "Mirrorball"(Live album), "Afterglow", CBC's After Hours Jazz Collection, Albinoni "Adagio Albinoni" Naxos 8.552244, Jesse Cook "Tempest", Madonna "The Immaculate Collection", Dido "No Angel", Natalie Cole "Unforgettable"]
The sound of course was very good to the point where I began thinking "you know a nice B&W or Paradigm sub might work just fine." I came out of the room and the dealer just smiled at my thought and said yes you can add bass but it's not just about bass. Removing the K's he put up the
Audio Note J/Spe's and within 2 minutes it was game over to thoughts about adding subwoofer(s). The AN K was a standmount that bettered every other standmount around it's size I had ever heard. The J/Spe I'm not sure can really be called a standmount speaker in this day and age to be totally fair. It is roughly 3 times the volume size of the K's and simply sounded much bigger and with far more sense of depth front to back than the K's could muster. The dealer said that Audio Note is trying to prove the diminishing returns theory wrong by having you go in and listen to a product at one level and then saying WOW at the next level - not oh i hear a bit of added bass. The sound was far more open and vocals were simply outstanding with the wetness and sense of air that I have only heard from the best speakers - usually a LOT LOT bigger speakers. The drivers are different in the J to the K as is the crossover and overall design of course - but it's to such a degree that youalmost can't go back - as good as the K's are already the J takes it all up a league in every regard - and they still manage to remain postion friendly despite rear porting.
The Albinoni disc was the deciding factor - classical music is so tough to do well because hardness brightness can completely distract me from the music. Not so here - it was the first time I was moved to tears from a session at a store. There was no hint of grain anywhere at anytime and that is a tribute to well designed gear. Closing my eyes the stereo "system" was gone - the listening "for" sonic attributes dissapeared - leaving musicality at the top of the list. We can talk of dips and spikes in frequency graphs, box versus no box, SET versus SS, Audio Note arrogance, multi-way versus 2 way versus one way, Metal versus planar versus stat etc etc etc. The emotion the enveloping nature of the great systems have it ---- find yours - whether it's Audio Note or not is not important - LISTEN and wait for something to provide you some cort of cathartic listening experience.
Rather than blathering on more I say go listen.
I listened to a lower level J against the J/Spe on another thread. The Basic J/L is no longer made and was a terrific speaker and was probably selling for $4kCdn
B&W N805 - I was going to go with the 705 - but really you'll see a billion of those reviews in the next months - So a look see at the favorite N805 again can't hurt and I thought was warranted considering it runs $3000.00Cdn - and more "In competition" with the K and J.
The presentation was good old B&W but better than I have heard in the past expecially at the frequency extremes. The Meishu at a mere 8 watts had no trouble with the b&W playing at high levels while maintaining deep bass(well as deep as the 805 musters) and a smooth effrtless top end with a touch of hardness for the style of tweeter,crossover, woofer choices they have made. The N805 would be a pleasure to own and it's still a great speaker - but this amp/cd player combo would be my choice. The SET Meishu exhibited absolutely no noise whether loud or not nor at any time did i need to move the knob past 12 O'clock to get good levels - and there was plenty on tap for more. I would still take the presentation of the K over the N805 simply due to the more cohesive sound from top to bottom. The J/Spe or J/L simply embarrased the N805 - and they should given the cost. Though the J at soundhounds are last years model and cost $500.00 less - but this is a fluke deal. The J is simply giving you way more of what's on the disc with much much deeper and tuneful bass response and a top end that that was reminiscent of the openness and air of the Magnepans.
Interesting thing I noted about the J's was that you almost NEVER see the woofer actually move even on demanding bass material. The E is like this as well though the woofer on the K would visibly move more. From Madonna's Vogue to Classical pieces at prettyhigh levels the woofer seems not to budge - at elast not to the naked eye. Presumably they will at very very high levels with very high bass content but I didn't see it. The dealer said that this is because the cabinet is not created to work AGAINST the driver like virtually all other box designs. It is indeed designed like a violin or guitar box were the entire cabinet is involved in creating the sound - the driver doesn't need to move very far to get the cabinet going and let it handle the rest. From that I was attempting to hear a box colouration because that "should" happen but nary did I find it.
What I could not hear on the day:
Paradigm Signature Series. I wanted too given the request - but the dealer brought the Signature Series in for several weeks and shipped them back. The problem was simply thay they felt the sound was simply too close to the Studio reference line and desipite the vastly superior cabinets and finishing in the signature models they felt the sound didn't live up to the levels of the money charged - not against what the store is currently carrying. They decide what makes the grade in their store. Don't shoot the messenger - this is what THEY said not me so don't get in a hissy fit at me about it. Indeed, this also indicated that they think highly of the Studio models in fact and might save Paradigm lovers from a looks over sound upgrade. Remember the B&W CM series is supposedly an upgrade over the 600 series but is JUST cosmetic.
I also wanted to hear the Totem Rainmaker but alas the dealer said they will not be buyuing anymore stock though they will remain an ordering hub - if you want one you can order one kinda deal. The same deal with Martin Logan. The size and positioning price and sound to varrying degrees were tough for them to move.
Canadians and Audio Note specific shoppers
Musings about Soundhounds and Audio Note. The owner at Soundhounds who I met, while he was tweaking out a Juke Box :-) a fancy one at that, is in the works to have the speaker building done at Soundhounds to reduce costs - the entry Dacs are already being made in Canada. The owner of Soundhounds has bought one of the top E models and an all AN system - like all the other salesman - and is awaiting the new Ongaku-On integrated which is on the way.
I asked about them laying the Audio Note "love in" on a bit thick. And he said that if we just sold Audio Note we would go out of business to be frank. Most People come in to a place like Soundhounds and they have a preset product in their mind to buy, usually their big name sellers - which I presumed was Boston Acoustics, B&W and Paradigm. There job is not to re-invent the wheel. Where they can sell Audio Note is when people spend a lot of time in there and are not too impressed with what they actually hear from their preconceived expectations. But if someone comes in and Wants Reference 3a or B&W they sell Reference 3a and B&W. He also noted that what do you always here us listening to in the main rig (which is the center of the store). It's always Audio Note despite the fact that they carry far costlier gear.
I also thought it was interesting to meet a customer who re-wired his B&W speakers with Audio Note Silver wiring and was astounded by the improved results. He lives near the store and has been an audio shopper there for 28 years - never was impressed with the notions that cables made a different - brought them home never a change - until Audio Note. I'm personally very skeptical of cables but hey they will mail em to me to try and if I don't like em I can mail em back - or go and pick them up to ttry at home and bring em back etc - no cost - and the cables are not as obscene as I thought. Though $7.00Cdn a foot is still a lot more than $1.50 a foot - but many are $50.00 a foot out there so???
I was also surprised they closed their store down and had all their staff down at CES in Vegas with Mr. Qvortrup - with picture on the Soundhounds site of their top gear.
Personal Note to 92135011 I only upgraded from the K/Spe to the J/Spe because of the price you told me they were selling them for. There is no way I could afford a speaker this expensive normally. I am also happy that soundhounds reconsidered the initial trade-in value I was offerred and decided to give me 100% trade-in. I'm also glad I went to hear them and not thought it was just going to be about bass - in fact the added bass(which is considerable) is probably the smallest reason I went to the J.
Incidentally, they said listening to the AN E/Spe for any period would likely have me wanting something I couldn't afford and steered me away from listening to one (I ran out of time anyway) - and they also did an LP experiment at CES with Audio Note's second best turtable - and a re-worked version of the Voyd Reference (largely considered the world's best turntable), on a set of high end E's. They got results of 16hz and even 12hz(but they had a term for this of which I forgot) - People who went into that room didn't believe there was no subwoofer running - including folks from B&W. They simply would not have it that an 8incher from a small box(smaller than a 9NT) could put out that kind of sound and also that kind of bass.
The AN J stands were not in and are behind shipment as the company movied locations - so I have to use the 20 inch stands over the recommended 14-16 incher. Considering that they're still spankingly good on my Skylans.
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So your report on the maggies was exactly what one salesguy told me. If you like soundstage, this aint the speaker for you.
Interesting stuff about the CES LP experiment. Although, I'm thinking...is 16hz even all that practical? What artists would I need to look for to actually go that low? Most of the "bassy" stuff these days is usually midbass like dance or something. Although I have heard an amazing CD of this group of about 100 Chinese Drummers. Too bad I never got the name of that CD...really neat stuff probably could go down to 16 hz. But other than that, I'm not sure I've really listened to anything that requires it.
You going to stay on the 20 inch stand?
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RGA, keep up the good work!
[QUOTE=RGA]Listened to Magnepan, B&W, Audio Note on Friday ... QUOTE]
I greatly respect your opinions which are based on frequent and extensive listening; that especially applies to spearkers. So I was particularly interested to hear that you finally got to listen to some Magneplanars. Your conclusions re. these speakers are not at all surprising, given (a) the nature of the speakers, and (b) your particular preferences.
To address the the latter first, it does seem you place high priority on dynamics, both macro and micro. It would seem that Audio Notes excel in this area. At least this is what your numerous reports imply to me; unfortunately I have never heard any AN speaker myself. Dynamics, particularly marco dynamics, are not areas of strength for Magneplanars. Especially with the smaller models -- certainly the MMG which I own -- a subwoofer is called for if you listen to anything much more than chamber music. BTW, I was able to "seamlessly" integrate my sub with minimal effort: I recommend an active cross-over at 80Hz for the MMGs, albeit the lower bass looses some "tightness".
Placement of Magneplanars is critical though not necessarily difficult. (This is true of all dipole, bipole, and omni speakers including Martin Logans, etc..) When auditioning them, always watch positioning: they ought to be 3+ feet from any wall for a start. That is, unless room treatments are used, but the effect of these can be difficult to gauge.
Magnepan is sometime criticized for not building better cross-overs or for not using good enough x-over components. And they have never bothered to sell products tweaked in this respect -- here one might say they are the antithesis of Audio Note.
By all means give Magneplanar more auditions when you have the opportunity. I doubt that you will make them your personal choice, but you might come to see why so many people love them. Or why, (regardless of your opinion of press reviewer in general), TAS rates all of Magnepan's models (except MMG), "best buys" in their respective price categories.
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The Magnepans were at least three feet from the rear wall maybe as much as 5. My dealer had their big ones way back. I do think I understand their appeal - my review of the AN K versus AN J is ot me an indication that adding a subwoofer simply doesn't do the job. A subwoofer adds bass - but the J would always be a more open sounding speaker than the K. Bass and dynamics are not quite the same thing.
And no matter the reviews in the end everything gets a good review - you still have to listen - the maggies and electrostats present a very different sound you either will buy into or not. Not knocking them - many people love em - many don't - so what else is new in the audio world.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92135011
So your report on the maggies was exactly what one salesguy told me. If you like soundstage, this aint the speaker for you.
Interesting stuff about the CES LP experiment. Although, I'm thinking...is 16hz even all that practical? What artists would I need to look for to actually go that low? Most of the "bassy" stuff these days is usually midbass like dance or something. Although I have heard an amazing CD of this group of about 100 Chinese Drummers. Too bad I never got the name of that CD...really neat stuff probably could go down to 16 hz. But other than that, I'm not sure I've really listened to anything that requires it.
You going to stay on the 20 inch stand?
Organs and Synthesizers can go way down. People seem to think LP's will have trouble with deep bass - or for that matter that SETs can't do it or that one 8inch woofer can do it.
SO put all three of these supposed things together and get more bass than say the B&W N801 with a top of the line Krell and maybe people will clue in that no actually these old antiquated systems - supposedly - can kick the snot out of the NEW supposedly superior designs. SETs are not complicated enough to be able to reproduce full range music is one silly notion I have read.
Stereophile has actually reviewed an Audio note preamp in this issue - have not read it - not that reviews are important anyway but I might like to see what they think.
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Nice review RGA and I hope you enjoy your new toys. I'm actually going to Vancouver for vacation this summer so if I get a chance, I'm hoping to drop into Soundhounds and finally hear the AN's myself.
Now, if I could just find a nice resort...
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One small point in that regard
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
...Bass and dynamics are not quite the same thing. ...
Bass and dynamics aren't the same thing at all. The reason I recommend a sub with smaller Magneplanars is that the sub unburdens the Maggie of dynamic demand below the cross-over point. Most subs have more dynamic capability than the planar element, hence the combo has better over all dynamics. Deeper bass is a just bonus if you like.
I haven't had the sub integration problems some people have had. I tried a 50Hz cross-over and didn't like it. But that was because the setting didn't transfer sufficient dynamic demand to the sub, not at all because the sub was "slower" that the planar or such explanation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topspeed
Nice review RGA and I hope you enjoy your new toys. I'm actually going to Vancouver for vacation this summer so if I get a chance, I'm hoping to drop into Soundhounds and finally hear the AN's myself.
Now, if I could just find a nice resort...
Soundhounds is in Victoria so it will require a ferry ride. But if you're on Vacation I should think you would want to include Vancouver Island anyway. A lot of nice summer spots on the island - Tofino on the west coast is supposed to be great - i still have yet to go and I live on the island :(
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Tofino is mega expensive these days I hear.
Plus if you arent a big beach or fishing fan, then its not really for you.
Ferry these days isnt cheap either. Think a car would cost you a good 40-50 one way. That's why its such a waste to go there for a day trip. Just the travel itself runs about almost 150. Then of course there are the attraction tix, which some of them are a ripoff - such as buchart gardens and others
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Topspeed is from the States though - so their money goes considerably further up here. Certainly it would not be advisable to ocme for one day - but coming over for 3-5 days and staying in a travel lodge in the Victoria area would be a good move. If you come to Vancouver and you don't go to the Island kinda short changes yourself. Depends how long your trip is too of course - but typically the Island and Whistler are the major places outside the Vancouver area to be seen. Whale watching is a popular activity in Tofino as well.
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Little supprised...no PSB
Well since you are pricing things in Loons (Canadian $ for those unfamillar with the slang term) I am assuming you live in Canada.
If that is the case I am surprised that you have not given your local Canadian PSB a listen. The alpha is great for the money and the Image series is a even better value.
It is clear that you are aiming at wide soundstage stereo only music.
You gave a very fair (and close to my impression of the Maggies) so I figure that you may like the same type of sound I like.
I had a pair of psb 2b and I loved the sound and mostly the soundstage.
I now own a pair of B&W 601 with a asw 300 sub for my stereo room. Next I will upgrade to the Triangle titan 202.
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Huh? Say what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 92135011
So your report on the maggies was exactly what one salesguy told me. If you like soundstage, this aint the speaker for you. ...
Your sales person's definition of soundstage must be different from mine. Soundstage plus transparency are the Magneplanar halmarks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciscokid1970
Well since you are pricing things in Loons (Canadian $ for those unfamillar with the slang term) I am assuming you live in Canada.
If that is the case I am surprised that you have not given your local Canadian PSB a listen. The alpha is great for the money and the Image series is a even better value.
It is clear that you are aiming at wide soundstage stereo only music.
You gave a very fair (and close to my impression of the Maggies) so I figure that you may like the same type of sound I like.
I had a pair of psb 2b and I loved the sound and mostly the soundstage.
I now own a pair of B&W 601 with a asw 300 sub for my stereo room. Next I will upgrade to the Triangle titan 202.
I'm not quite sure who you're addressing with this. I have listened to PSB's - good speakers to be sure for the most part. You may not be as familiar with Audio Note http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html
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92135011
Here's a pic of the soundhounds crew. Peter Qvortrup is back right - Sounhounds owner back left and my sales guy Paul is second left sitting down. It also gives you an idea as to the size of the AN E with outboard crossover. You have to click on winter CES photo because the picture is too big for this site and I don't know how to reduce the soize of pictures??? http://www.soundhounds.com/
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Congratulations RGA! you're lucky to get the SPes for such a bargain.
btw, that's a great review you wrote there! what are your impressions with regards to timbral quality and tonality of the AN-Js compared with the N805s? any chance the experience will make you go the tubes route? :cool:
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The N805 has brighter presentation and the bottom end lacks body - it's a much smaller speaker than the J and has a sound which is much smaller - the bass can boom a little and you hear more box. But the AN J/SPe sells in the US for nearly double the price of the N805 and frankly should be THAT much better.
Basically, when you start listening to something and then you go back and listen to something not up to it it's hard to not to gain a snob-like attitude. Even the dealer admitted that when you hear the AN E upper models the AN K sounds like a clock radio by comparison - and unfortunately that's almost the way I perceive the N805 - directly compared I laughed because it's just no contest. The J has a huge soundstage real bass response without a hint of boom - the ear gravitates to the N805's tweeter and bass and less on the music. Granted if you didn't do a side by side the N805 is a terrific speaker - no real nasty habits better than most for the money. Those dealers who own the AN E/Spe probably couldn't go back to the J/Spe in the same manner.
They've been in business for 30 years - line or not I don't know, but they said they consider AN to be the best stuff, musically, they've ever carried from cables, cd players, turntables, speakers and amps - and they have carried a lot of gear during that time. It's not a fly by night operation they've been around for a long time on the merit of their sound - because they don't look like anything - they don't play the pay for reviews bribe the reviewer game. Many review publications expect to be GIVEN the product they review or other "thank-you" gifts.
I will likely save for the Soro SE. My Sugden is out of its league playing with these speakers - and I think I get why Peter Q is adamant about his amplifiers. I was considering adding a preamp but I may just get the integrated. 8 watts is more than I could ever need with both my speakers - the clarity non edgy but not glossed over nature of the Meishu was fantastic and I already heard the Soro last time was there. I think to get the best results all Audio Note is the way to go - while that is a very expensive proposition - for the first time i don't need the hassle of worry about good matches for my speaker etc - I know they designed it all to match.
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Thank you for your extensive listening notes. I felt like you were someone at the audio equivalent of a wine tasting describing your sensory reactions to what you heard and the differences of the different models. Unfortunately, a recent visit to Audio Note's web site revealed that there is no longer a dealer anywhere near me so I will probably not have an opportunity to hear them for myself for the forseeable future.
"The dealer said that this is because the cabinet is not created to work AGAINST the driver like virtually all other box designs. It is indeed designed like a violin or guitar box were the entire cabinet is involved in creating the sound "
It is this kind of absurd rhetoric which makes me highly dubious of the claims made for A/N products. This is rediculous. The science and art of designing speaker enclosures has been developed for about 75 years and every conceivable type of enclosure has not only been tried but many of them have been extensively modeled mathematically in conjunction with drivers of different types. Among the more efficient enclosure/speaker combinations are horns and folded horns. Virtually every other speaker manufacturer besides A/N regards any resonances from the enclosure itself to be spurious because they are uncontrolled in amplitude. They take every conceivable step to eliminate those unwanted resonances by bracing the enclosures or making them from materials which do not resonate. It is hard to accept claims for a loudspeaker system which fly in the face of the otherwise universally accepted goal of non structural resonance of the enclosure by comparing them to musical instruments where the thinness, shape, induced stresses, and materials are deliberately chosen to enhance these types of resonances. The type of blanket put down of all other loudspeaker enclosures besides the ones employed by A/N is the kind of hype not usually associated with advertising for high end audio equipment. This accompanied by an unusual lack of technical details about the design philosophy or construction of these products is very disturbing, especially given their cost. The manufacturer seems to lose the distinction between the "machines" he makes and sells, and actual musical insturments other people make.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
The Maggies are not carried by my dealer though they were years ago and he even owned their top of the line for a short while. These were in on trade - looked like big White scratching posts. The model he told me but I forget - something with a 2 in it - it was supposedly the 2nd from the top. Quite large actually - wider than me and maybe ~5.5 feet high.
Actually, they would be at least three down from the top. 20.1 then 3.6 then the now discontined 2.6. Or even further down as the 12s. A visit to the magnepan.com site might help. My first planars was a pair of MG-IIs thirty years ago. While they were definitely frequency extreme restricted, their presentation was very coherent. The current top three all use ribbon tweeters which does transform their high frequency capability over those that were not. Having said that, you do need to get some distance from them for the drivers to blend. One small "fix" is simply to place the tweeters "inboard" rather than "outboard" as the different ffrequency drivers run vertically in the panels. I could very easily live with a pair of 20.1s - I heard HP's nicely driven pair in Seacliff.
You are most correct in that folks have different listening priorities when it comes to speakers. As for me, I cherish coherency, transient response, and imaging. As Feanor suggested, imaging contains a sub-category of characteristics that involve priorities as well. For me the live experience involves a large image. While it is not simply a question of height, I have yet to hear a satisfying large image from a small speaker, whether it is on stands or not. I am most aware that the sound is rising to meet me and it is perceived to be more distant. My 'stats run floor to ceiling. The image completely fills my listening space in height, width, and depth. Mine are situated eight feet from the back wall. While they are certainly not perfect, they do those things that I cherish most right. Since they are full range, they bypass the whole crossover question altogether. Yet, they beam big time. Move from the center listening chair and the image changes significantly. Positioning them took lots of experimentation. They requires lots of power to deliver realistic SPLs (my amps are 200/450 watt tube monoblocks). But they are able to "float" a very coherent image of a voice, strings, woodwinds, or whatever in a most convincing manner. I find planars better able to reproduce the timbre of bass instruments than most cones with their lower mass and uniform drive. The speakers I aspire to get some day are the Soundlabs A-1s.
To each his own. :)
rw
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Is he really flying in the face of everyone else - since the well proven design has been there since the 1940's - and modified once by Snell and then by PQ?
Your assessment was similarly asked on AA:
"The reason violins, guitars, etc. have boxes is because they PRODUCE music. Speakers don't. They REPRODUCE music. The box is a big, heavy, distortion producing artifact. The best box is either no box, or a silent box. The only silent box I've personally ever heard were on the Wilson Audio X1 GRAND SLAAM...$65k. 2 inch thick synthetic marble.
So the previous poster is fairly correct. Speakers do NOT need box resonance to operate, look at any dipole.
Read up on speaker design theory, and you'll understand a lot more.
-tal"
"Dear Tal,
Let's put this to bed once and for all, Mount Everest has a resonance frequency, low yes, but it still resonates.
We can therefore reasonably conclude that everything resonates, there is no such thing as a speaker with no box (popular as the concept may seem, you have to mount the drivers in something, even if it is a panel driver), so we have essentially two choices,
1.) Build a box that minimises the resonant behaviour by applying mass, which does nothing useful in most cases, because whilst a lower resonance frequency at lower amplitude may look great on a waterfall graph, the reality is that it prolongs the amount of time the resonant energy is present, which leaves it present for long enough to disturb the replay.
In addition, damping is "stupid" in the sense that it removes both the sounds you want and the ones you are trying to get rid of.
2.) Build a cabinet which has a fast enough recovery time to stay within the human ear's time constant, that is, be close enough to the original note, to be indistinguishable by the human ear.
Method no. 2.) is much much harder to apply, as working out how to RAISE the resonance frequency and shorten it towards inaudibility requires hundreds of hours of experimentation AND does provide beautiful waterfall graphs with which to present your latest resonance removing technique as another breakthrough of "innovation" with which to sell next years crop of speakers with.
All our measurement methods and conventions dictate that making the cabinet heavier is better, unfortunately the truth is that it is a convenient, but poor way of solving the problem.
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup "
Dear RGA,
It should say - 6 dB at 23 kHz, the problem with this kind of information is that it largely depends on how far away it was measured and in what kind of environment, anachoic or reverberant, so you need a whole load more information to be able to determine what the speaker actually does.
Given that most software, whether LP or CD does not have much energy above 15kHz and also considering that many of the recognised best recordings don't either, I think it is a mute issue whether bandwidth above 15kHz matters that much to the musical hearing experience, I think, as with most paper specifications, that they are designed to impress the less knowledgeable consumer into believing that they are making a choice based on "solid" information, which is important when they are making a buying decision.
A number of magazines and audio companies use our speakers, as do several mastering studios, we do not advertise this generally, because I do not feel that it is right to influence people's judgement of performance this way, I have the same view of specifications, they tell you little or nothing about the real world performance.
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup"
The comparison to musical instruments is for the layman in that they actually use the cabinet itself like a musical instrument does, to create the sound. Most box speakers don't - which is why so many of the speakers you hear in a given price range say sound nearly identical - different treble and one might have more bass etc but they sound almost identical in the dyamics room filling kind of weightyness aspects.
In the end though I am forced to simply go by what I hear - you have way more of a technical background and have the right to question his approach. But right or wrong it sounds right to me. And I know you are not impressed with a LOT of speakers currently available yourself because you have oftened mentioned that "Brightness" that I also complain about.
Thus does it not make sense that an entirely different approach would or at least "could" be better. If the New accepted designs are not exactly getting you to sell your old designed AR9's then maybe other old designs are also better than the new ones. His master speaker is the Snell AII I believe. I can honestly say that take away all other considerations I would take the J ~3k over the N801 at $14k. So yes things at AN may be overpriced but to me then what is the N801? The point is to make you feel something when you listen for me that is AN for you may leave you totally cold and another it's Quad etc. I don't think this is rocket science.
Also:
Why not ask him some technical questions - He spends time on AA, he answers people's questions but has to dumb it down for less technically minded people - he's at every show, runs the company puts the stuff together designs and still takes the time to frequent AA and admittedly come under the gun on occasion. His digital products took a lot of flack too - I wonder if people actually heard and compared though.
The guy is pasionate and thinks he's right - and if he's right then to him everyone is less right to outright wrong - presumably Peter Walker felt that way about electrostats and whoever runs Magnepan feels that way too...and the people who buy those speakers because they genuinely love the sound will believe that those designers were dead right - even though someone like yourself can easily come along and find the "technical" flaws or weaknesses in planars and stats - nothing is perfect.
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The "box" in a loudspeaker system serves one or more of several useful purposes, most having to do with low frequency reproduction. Since vibrating membranes like loudspeaker cones produce sound from both the front and the back, and since sound from the back is 180 degrees out of phase with sound from the front, if the speaker has no enclosure, the sound from the back will cancel the sound from the front and the bass will be very weak. Ported enclosures cause the wave from the back to invert in phase and emerge in phase with the wave from the front. Unfortunately, they are very frequency selective and usually have a series of resonance and antiresonance nodes. Infinite baffles try to just prevent the back wave from reaching the front. Acoustic suspension speakers use the air pressure trapped in a relatively small box to control the cone motion in additon to preventing it from emerging out of phase and canceling out the front wave. Horn enclosures are the mechanical equivalent of electrical transformers efficiently coupling the energy from the front of the speaker to the room by providing a suitable back pressure at the narrow end of the horn to load the driver efficiently while providing a transition to a low pressure end which couples efficiently with a large room. Enclosureless speakers like Magnepan magneplanar types have to take special measures to overcome this out of phase problem. They are probably effectively back to back drivers in a bi polar configuration having the back wave emerge in phase with the front wave instead of out of phase. There are many others clever enclosure ideas like isobaraks which have an inner driver to effectively increase the effective size of the enclosure for loading purposes without increasing its physical size. I don't see how you can glibly dismiss the role of a loudspeaker enclosure. One thing all of them have in common. The guy who builds them does NOT want them to add spurious resonances to the sound of his speaker.
"In addition, damping is "stupid" in the sense that it removes both the sounds you want and the ones you are trying to get rid of."
Once again this kind of statement flies in the face of accepted and well proven facts. This should be especially evident to anyone who tries to design an acoustic suspension speaker system like A/N K. Of the three parameters which control the frequency response of a loudspeaker; mass, springiness, and damping, the internal damping material used to control overshoot of the cone is the only thing that prevents it from exhibiting boomy undamped resonances. This is a direct application of Newton's second law of motion applied to the phenomenon of forced resonance. It is presented in every freshman college physics textbook along with its solution and explanation. BTW, it is one of the most widely used equations for analyzing and designing mechanical systems including for example the suspension on your car. For ported systems, the driver suspensions are usually much tighter so the damping can be done mostly by the driver itself. The box can be "tuned" to any frequency desired given the right dimension and internal configuration. I'd like to see a cutaway view of the A/N J and E series which are two way 8 inch ported designs. The extremely low claimed low frequency cutoff suggests a kind of transmission line loading to tune the relatively small cabinet to such a low frequency.
I do not and will not post on AA. For me the site is unacceptable. As I said on the cable message board, I posted there for a short time many years ago. I was not thrown out, I left on my own but had I stayed, the outcome would not have been in doubt.
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With the E anyway apparently the cabinet is tuned nearly a full octave below the driver midbass driver cuttoff - well according to an advert I was reading.
The Audio Note Absolute Zero floorstanders are essentially Transmission line speakers from what the dealers were saying. The back of the speaker about 3/4 the way up was cut completely out and you could look down inside the speaker. AN calls it [Two-way folded, parabolic, rear-loaded, quarter-wave quasi-horn-loaded floor-standing loudspeakers] instead of transmission line I guess.
Way back when I was looking at the AN/K specifically - Peter told me exactly where to get info on them:
"You may find this even funnier, they are actually 1940's cabinet shapes, read L. L. Beranek's Loudspeakers and you will find the calculation for all our speakers, cabinet shape, driver position etc.
What you will not find is how we match the drivers to each other to maximise efficiency, dispersion and overall tonal balance."
This L.L Beranek guy - I've seen his name a lot in acoustics even for car companies to control vibration and B&W referred to him in their FAQ section - you would likely be WAY more familiar with him than I.
RE: the K
"As to the drivers, they are both from Vifa in Denmark, the tweeter is a highly modified version of the TD19, no ferro fluid, no damping and a special ferrite magnet, the woofer is also a Vifa which is a derivative of the original standard driver.
But really if you want to know exactly what is inside the speakers and all there other products why not go to that AudioAsylum board - they now have a dedicated Audio Note Kits forum - can't get into trouble if you just read through what the builders are saying http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/au...ekits/bbs.html - I can't find the picture of the inside of the E kit but they had all the parts all sitting there ready to placed in the box.
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RGA,
why not go for a kit2 with preamp kit.
I know that the dealer advised against a preamp, but probably means he is against using a pre with the A48b. Plus the kit2 with preamp kit are both tube so it should be ok.
The 2 units will run you 1700US (probably a notch less after negotiation) Plus you can sell off your Sugden for a little bit. Save 7% on taxes, which is another 150 or so. So at the end you are looking at about the same as the soro.
Good thing is that you can easily upgrade it when you get more cash. If you are uncomfortable with kit building, I can help you build it if you would like and if you can trust me of course. Light electronics is sort of a hobby for me anyways.
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Yeah it's going to be at least a year before I could do something like this. I'm already WAY over budget in going with the J's in the first place. Thanks for the generous offer though. You are right they were not against the preamp kit or preamp but they didn't feel it was a worthy move to use my amp as power amp as it is solid state.
I'll probably wait until I come back from Japan - roughly 4 years from now before I make a move - unless I marry a rich girl by then who loves music too. Or a lottery happens my way.
I will probably keep the Sugden and run it as a power amp for my Marantz receiver. Of course this assumes the receiver lasts five years.
Sugden has pulled themselves from north America apparently - probably because people here buy based off of looks and features over actual sound quality and build construction. .
I also noticed that Soundhounds was selling some of the AN amplifier Kits which they assembled for $3000.00. UGLY freakin things with a lot of tubes and uncovered transformers. - Definitely pay extra to get the covers - I mean there is acceptable ugly and then there is UGGGLY. From the looks of it they were very well built.
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Actually, check out Audionotekits.com
The new kit1 is larger and has a stainless steel chassis. Looks better than the old one.
And yes...the covers are a MUST.
I'm going to build myself some of those kits in due time.
When I'm done you are welcome to drop by to give them a listen to see if its your cup of tea. Then it will give you a good idea what you getting yourself into if you do decide to invest. The kits are undergoing a lot of change. The preamp kit right now looks like the M2. But in a few months time they will look closer like the M3 (to accomodate more transformers and such). The excellent thing about kits is that you can upgrade it bit by bit rather than buy a whole new unit (OPT, caps, atteunators, etc.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92135011
Actually, check out Audionotekits.com
The new kit1 is larger and has a stainless steel chassis. Looks better than the old one.
And yes...the covers are a MUST.
I'm going to build myself some of those kits in due time.
When I'm done you are welcome to drop by to give them a listen to see if its your cup of tea. Then it will give you a good idea what you getting yourself into if you do decide to invest. The kits are undergoing a lot of change. The preamp kit right now looks like the M2. But in a few months time they will look closer like the M3 (to accomodate more transformers and such). The excellent thing about kits is that you can upgrade it bit by bit rather than buy a whole new unit (OPT, caps, atteunators, etc.)
How much are these kits - the Kit two says it's only $999.00US Is it an integrated amp? How much is the Kit one? They say all you need is a soldering iron besically.
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Kit 2 is a power amp, but it has a volume pot so that if you have a source with a high enough output you can run it without a pre. The kit2 is built based on the Kit1 except that its the non-triode version running on 6550 pentode. The kit1 runs $1349 and is 300B SET, no feedback, directly heated running about 9 WPC. The upgrades entitle a "high-B" OPT, black gate caps, copper film oil caps, tantalum resistors, silver wiring, better pot). The preamp kit runs $699, as upgrades like the above, and as I said, a new chassis coming soon.
BTW, they are coming out with some 211 monos soon, probably for the extra power or something. Also, a new integrated is in production. However, this will be a budget push-pull integrated probably much like the soro pp. Hence, even after these new products, the kit1 will remain their most popular amp. As you can see, I have asked Brian many many questions.
In regard to the equipment needed, I think a soldering pen, solder, stripper, cutter and pliers is enough to get the job done. I think they include everything else. Plastic wire ties may be worth the extra 50 cents too as it will make everything nice and tidy. Just the soldering pen and solder would do...but then the result would look very messy amateur. Actually, I'm going to buy a new stripper just for this project as my old one is dull and no longer does the job well.
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I dunno RGA, I kinda like the earlier idea of going with the PSB Alpha's....I have some old Alpha bookshelfs in my garage I suppose I'd be willing to trade you straight up for your new AN J's...
Whaddya say, buddy???
:)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92135011
Kit 2 is a power amp, but it has a volume pot so that if you have a source with a high enough output you can run it without a pre. The kit2 is built based on the Kit1 except that its the non-triode version running on 6550 pentode. The kit1 runs $1349 and is 300B SET, no feedback, directly heated running about 9 WPC. The upgrades entitle a "high-B" OPT, black gate caps, copper film oil caps, tantalum resistors, silver wiring, better pot). The preamp kit runs $699, as upgrades like the above, and as I said, a new chassis coming soon.
BTW, they are coming out with some 211 monos soon, probably for the extra power or something. Also, a new integrated is in production. However, this will be a budget push-pull integrated probably much like the soro pp. Hence, even after these new products, the kit1 will remain their most popular amp. As you can see, I have asked Brian many many questions.
In regard to the equipment needed, I think a soldering pen, solder, stripper, cutter and pliers is enough to get the job done. I think they include everything else. Plastic wire ties may be worth the extra 50 cents too as it will make everything nice and tidy. Just the soldering pen and solder would do...but then the result would look very messy amateur. Actually, I'm going to buy a new stripper just for this project as my old one is dull and no longer does the job well.
Well when the time comes I will go and listen to the ones built by the guys at soundhounds. this way I will actually get to hear the kit before I buy. If i like it I will build one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
I dunno RGA, I kinda like the earlier idea of going with the PSB Alpha's....I have some old Alpha bookshelfs in my garage I suppose I'd be willing to trade you straight up for your new AN J's...
Whaddya say, buddy???
:)
:) thanks but after due consideration I will suffer with J's
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Well when the time comes I will go and listen to the ones built by the guys at soundhounds. this way I will actually get to hear the kit before I buy. If i like it I will build one.
Soundhounds has the kit1 but they dont have the preamp. If you drop by vancouver, you can give it a try at my place if you wish. I havent built it yet, but will in due time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Listened to Magnepan, B&W, Audio Note on Friday as that was all that I could get time for. 7 hours of listening - minus a short lunch and a few cappuchino's and coffees provided by the great group at Soundhounds. However I have some musings on Totem, Paradigm Signature and Martin Logan as well
The store was much leaner and less stuffed with gear this time around. They now have a dedicated home theater room with a giant front projection system and all B&W all around in one room. I didn't spend time in there but the picture of the movie ICE AGE was impressive to say the least. The store had set it all up becuase one of the top B&W guys is flying down in a couple of weeks.
Please no flames this was my impressions of the speakers of the day and not an attack on other people's choices - not everyone is going to like the same things. Follow the bolded spots for discussion of a given speaker to the next bold for the next speaker.
I was extremely excited getting in the store and seeing a set of Magneplanars in used because I have no problem buying used and people rave so much about them that it would have been nice to hear them before upgrading just to save myself future second guessing.
The Maggies are not carried by my dealer though they were years ago and he even owned their top of the line for a short while. These were in on trade - looked like big White scratching posts. The model he told me but I forget - something with a 2 in it - it was supposedly the 2nd from the top. Quite large actually - wider than me and maybe ~5.5 feet high
I had them hook it up to the top of the line MF integrated and a very nice and rugged looking Rotel CD player - have not been paying too much attention to Rotel - but they're at least "looking" better these days.
I have to say it was a wildly different sound than the B&W and Audio Note speakers. If I stood up and walked toward them the sound became completely muddy like a towel had been put over the singer's mouth - so it is certainly very important to set them up correctly and and be seated at a reasonable height and distance.
I tried a few discs from Dianna Krall, Tina Turner and Jesse Cook. What was good was an incredibly clear vocal band and a ton of air - I mean a ton of air - plenty of wetness to vocals. The top and bottom end presented some problems - I was not convinced by the location of instruments as if they were on the panel rather than on a stage and the bass while seemingly deep simply had no impact whatsoever - I mean almost zero - it just seemed that on the drum kicks it was just lifeless to me. The music was clear but lacked the full body. It did far better on lighter guitar.
I do think I understand the appeal of em and why people like them and certainly I understand why some would gravitate to them - certainly against a lot of the boxed competition which are resonance inducers that tend to have a "thumpy" quality. Thus I can certainly understand why one would choose no bass impact over lousy bass impact - the latter is abnoxious - the former isn't missed if you don't know it's supposed to be there. There were qualities that reminded me of Electrostats and it did a lot of terrific things - in the end they're not for me. Not enough meat on the bones was a good analogy IMO.
The rest of the audiotons were don in the same room, same stands, same electronics - with slight adjustment where needed to satisfy a better posoition for the speakers. Those electronics were as follows:
Audio Note Meishu 8 watt SET amp - a lower end Audio note integrated running at $10,000Cdn - about twice as high as my 300 disc cd player and deeper by the looks of it.
Audio Note level 3 cd player - not sure of price - all cabling was Audio Note - with very heavy duty looking power chords directly into high grade wall sockets. Skylan stands used for all speakers.
Audio Note AN K/Spe was first up in line - this was to let me get accustomed to my speakers in a different room and with much superior gear. I listened for a good hour running through some selections from the discs I brought with me [Classic Yo-Yo, Dianna Krall "Girl in the Other Room", Tina Turner "Simply the Best", Santana "Shaman" and "Abraxas", Leahy "Lakefield, Acoustic Alchemy "Back on the Case", Sarah McLachlan "Mirrorball"(Live album), "Afterglow", CBC's After Hours Jazz Collection, Albinoni "Adagio Albinoni" Naxos 8.552244, Jesse Cook "Tempest", Madonna "The Immaculate Collection", Dido "No Angel", Natalie Cole "Unforgettable"]
The sound of course was very good to the point where I began thinking "you know a nice B&W or Paradigm sub might work just fine." I came out of the room and the dealer just smiled at my thought and said yes you can add bass but it's not just about bass. Removing the K's he put up the
Audio Note J/Spe's and within 2 minutes it was game over to thoughts about adding subwoofer(s). The AN K was a standmount that bettered every other standmount around it's size I had ever heard. The J/Spe I'm not sure can really be called a standmount speaker in this day and age to be totally fair. It is roughly 3 times the volume size of the K's and simply sounded much bigger and with far more sense of depth front to back than the K's could muster. The dealer said that Audio Note is trying to prove the diminishing returns theory wrong by having you go in and listen to a product at one level and then saying WOW at the next level - not oh i hear a bit of added bass. The sound was far more open and vocals were simply outstanding with the wetness and sense of air that I have only heard from the best speakers - usually a LOT LOT bigger speakers. The drivers are different in the J to the K as is the crossover and overall design of course - but it's to such a degree that youalmost can't go back - as good as the K's are already the J takes it all up a league in every regard - and they still manage to remain postion friendly despite rear porting.
The Albinoni disc was the deciding factor - classical music is so tough to do well because hardness brightness can completely distract me from the music. Not so here - it was the first time I was moved to tears from a session at a store. There was no hint of grain anywhere at anytime and that is a tribute to well designed gear. Closing my eyes the stereo "system" was gone - the listening "for" sonic attributes dissapeared - leaving musicality at the top of the list. We can talk of dips and spikes in frequency graphs, box versus no box, SET versus SS, Audio Note arrogance, multi-way versus 2 way versus one way, Metal versus planar versus stat etc etc etc. The emotion the enveloping nature of the great systems have it ---- find yours - whether it's Audio Note or not is not important - LISTEN and wait for something to provide you some cort of cathartic listening experience.
Rather than blathering on more I say go listen.
I listened to a lower level J against the J/Spe on another thread. The Basic J/L is no longer made and was a terrific speaker and was probably selling for $4kCdn
B&W N805 - I was going to go with the 705 - but really you'll see a billion of those reviews in the next months - So a look see at the favorite N805 again can't hurt and I thought was warranted considering it runs $3000.00Cdn - and more "In competition" with the K and J.
The presentation was good old B&W but better than I have heard in the past expecially at the frequency extremes. The Meishu at a mere 8 watts had no trouble with the b&W playing at high levels while maintaining deep bass(well as deep as the 805 musters) and a smooth effrtless top end with a touch of hardness for the style of tweeter,crossover, woofer choices they have made. The N805 would be a pleasure to own and it's still a great speaker - but this amp/cd player combo would be my choice. The SET Meishu exhibited absolutely no noise whether loud or not nor at any time did i need to move the knob past 12 O'clock to get good levels - and there was plenty on tap for more. I would still take the presentation of the K over the N805 simply due to the more cohesive sound from top to bottom. The J/Spe or J/L simply embarrased the N805 - and they should given the cost. Though the J at soundhounds are last years model and cost $500.00 less - but this is a fluke deal. The J is simply giving you way more of what's on the disc with much much deeper and tuneful bass response and a top end that that was reminiscent of the openness and air of the Magnepans.
Interesting thing I noted about the J's was that you almost NEVER see the woofer actually move even on demanding bass material. The E is like this as well though the woofer on the K would visibly move more. From Madonna's Vogue to Classical pieces at prettyhigh levels the woofer seems not to budge - at elast not to the naked eye. Presumably they will at very very high levels with very high bass content but I didn't see it. The dealer said that this is because the cabinet is not created to work AGAINST the driver like virtually all other box designs. It is indeed designed like a violin or guitar box were the entire cabinet is involved in creating the sound - the driver doesn't need to move very far to get the cabinet going and let it handle the rest. From that I was attempting to hear a box colouration because that "should" happen but nary did I find it.
What I could not hear on the day:
Paradigm Signature Series. I wanted too given the request - but the dealer brought the Signature Series in for several weeks and shipped them back. The problem was simply thay they felt the sound was simply too close to the Studio reference line and desipite the vastly superior cabinets and finishing in the signature models they felt the sound didn't live up to the levels of the money charged - not against what the store is currently carrying. They decide what makes the grade in their store. Don't shoot the messenger - this is what THEY said not me so don't get in a hissy fit at me about it. Indeed, this also indicated that they think highly of the Studio models in fact and might save Paradigm lovers from a looks over sound upgrade. Remember the B&W CM series is supposedly an upgrade over the 600 series but is JUST cosmetic.
I also wanted to hear the Totem Rainmaker but alas the dealer said they will not be buyuing anymore stock though they will remain an ordering hub - if you want one you can order one kinda deal. The same deal with Martin Logan. The size and positioning price and sound to varrying degrees were tough for them to move.
Canadians and Audio Note specific shoppers
Musings about Soundhounds and Audio Note. The owner at Soundhounds who I met, while he was tweaking out a Juke Box :-) a fancy one at that, is in the works to have the speaker building done at Soundhounds to reduce costs - the entry Dacs are already being made in Canada. The owner of Soundhounds has bought one of the top E models and an all AN system - like all the other salesman - and is awaiting the new Ongaku-On integrated which is on the way.
I asked about them laying the Audio Note "love in" on a bit thick. And he said that if we just sold Audio Note we would go out of business to be frank. Most People come in to a place like Soundhounds and they have a preset product in their mind to buy, usually their big name sellers - which I presumed was Boston Acoustics, B&W and Paradigm. There job is not to re-invent the wheel. Where they can sell Audio Note is when people spend a lot of time in there and are not too impressed with what they actually hear from their preconceived expectations. But if someone comes in and Wants Reference 3a or B&W they sell Reference 3a and B&W. He also noted that what do you always here us listening to in the main rig (which is the center of the store). It's always Audio Note despite the fact that they carry far costlier gear.
I also thought it was interesting to meet a customer who re-wired his B&W speakers with Audio Note Silver wiring and was astounded by the improved results. He lives near the store and has been an audio shopper there for 28 years - never was impressed with the notions that cables made a different - brought them home never a change - until Audio Note. I'm personally very skeptical of cables but hey they will mail em to me to try and if I don't like em I can mail em back - or go and pick them up to ttry at home and bring em back etc - no cost - and the cables are not as obscene as I thought. Though $7.00Cdn a foot is still a lot more than $1.50 a foot - but many are $50.00 a foot out there so???
I was also surprised they closed their store down and had all their staff down at CES in Vegas with Mr. Qvortrup - with picture on the Soundhounds site of their top gear.
Personal Note to 92135011 I only upgraded from the K/Spe to the J/Spe because of the price you told me they were selling them for. There is no way I could afford a speaker this expensive normally. I am also happy that soundhounds reconsidered the initial trade-in value I was offerred and decided to give me 100% trade-in. I'm also glad I went to hear them and not thought it was just going to be about bass - in fact the added bass(which is considerable) is probably the smallest reason I went to the J.
Incidentally, they said listening to the AN E/Spe for any period would likely have me wanting something I couldn't afford and steered me away from listening to one (I ran out of time anyway) - and they also did an LP experiment at CES with Audio Note's second best turtable - and a re-worked version of the Voyd Reference (largely considered the world's best turntable), on a set of high end E's. They got results of 16hz and even 12hz(but they had a term for this of which I forgot) - People who went into that room didn't believe there was no subwoofer running - including folks from B&W. They simply would not have it that an 8incher from a small box(smaller than a 9NT) could put out that kind of sound and also that kind of bass.
The AN J stands were not in and are behind shipment as the company movied locations - so I have to use the 20 inch stands over the recommended 14-16 incher. Considering that they're still spankingly good on my Skylans.
I'm glad you liked them.
I'm not much interested in what you did NOT hear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
I'm glad you liked them.
It's a good thing you quoted the entire work otherwise we wouldn't have been able to place your comments into perspective. :D
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
I'm glad you liked them.
I'm not much interested in what you did NOT hear.
I had a request to audition the line of speakers before I went - I could not so I relayed the reason why.
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Good overview of your listenings. Surprise, surprise, you decided to upgrade!
Your impressions of the Magneplanars were pretty similar to my listenings with their 1.6 and 3.6 models. I thought they had more low end kick than a lot of other panel speakers I've heard, but they're at their best primarily with acoustic music. They very effectively disappear and image well when positioned properly (pulling them at least 3' from the front wall is a must; no idea if this also applies to the MMG and their newer wall-mounted models). But, they have a narrow dispersion pattern and their tonal characteristics change a lot when you move around the room.
Interesting about contrasting the B&W to the ANs. Not sure what type of sound I would prefer. I have heard the N805s before and thought they were excellent all-arounders, but I could only compare them with other B&W models, so I have no idea how they would stack up in A/B sessions with competing model lines.
But, when espousing the virtues of the ANs, I wouldn't go too far with trying to generalize the design approaches. Saying that the driver movement was minimal is not always considered a positive, since one of the more commonly cited design goals with subwoofer drivers is a high Xmax (maximum linear excursion).
And the whole notion of a resonant wood box being a positive trait, I just don't buy it. I've heard way too many speakers over the years with poorly damped cabinets and the resulting resonance to believe that all of the companies that devote time and expense to minimize box resonances are wasting their time. Even though a guitar, piano, and violin are all hollow bodied instruments, they each have a VERY different sonic signature. Even though a violin sounds great with a bow or a pluck, I certainly wouldn't want percussion instruments to sound like they were pumped through a violin body. Are you saying that in order to best reproduce a violin sound, then a speaker driver should be mounted inside a hollow cavity that mimics the resonant characteristics of a violin? Or if you want to optimize a human voice reproduction, then a speaker designer should use a ribbon transducer and mount it inside a fleshy pipe?
This kind of generalized analogy runs dangerously close to the Bose 901 edict that says that if you want to best reproduce a concert hall type of sound, then you must design speakers that have similar reflective characteristics. If the recording was done in a concert hall, then that ambient effect is already part of the recording. Last thing you want is for the speaker to further add to that reverberant effect. Same thing goes with wooden speaker boxes. A violin is played through a reverberant wood body, and that effect is already part of the recording. Why would you want to put the sound through yet another resonant body if the end goal is to reproduce the sound as closely to what you would actually hear in person?
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Just about hoit send an my computer deletes everything - stupid things.
First ignore my analogy descriptions of the speaker because it's basically just that.
Since they're designed differently, like a guitar/violin box, the guesswork begins. Naturally there is much more to it than that because I would not want to hear a trumpet through a guitar box - which would be a total disaster. Well except for the guitar I suppose.
My limited knowledge of their goal is to take resonances and shift them to an inaudible region and let them escape as instantly as possible - rahter than a heavily damped box which stores them and eventually hampers the sound. Unless they're really really heavy cabinets.
Now while Hi-fi Choice gave them the best in class rating - some members of the blind listening panel felt the J's were coloured(though they were not set up properly). No doubt some people's decay is another person's bloom. Though I can spot bloom pretty well since my wharfedale's have it. Bloom should also result in box resonances which should increase distortion - but the distortion is very low and the bass very tight - so I don't buy that. When an instrument say a piano is playing you get the sense it's a real piano and even with the Bass in Dianna Krall you hear the entire box and her voice never becomes muddy. The N805 for example will attempt the Bass but whne krall starts singing your ear shifts to her and the Bass seems much lighter in weight - it's hard to describe but it's as if the speaker has given up on doing both at once.
I am no engineer don't claim to be - but upon listening - their speakers, to me, sound more like music than any other speaker maker I have heard.
They don't advertise they don't have any product literature they look butt ugly and they've been selling on sound for 20 years. You just don't do that if you're selling a highly resonating box. Bose markets the hell out of everything and are horrible speakers.
The only kind of technical description(which still isn't technical) is from the kit sites and only on the E - though the J is basically the same in that they use Foster tweeters and SEAS woofers.
A lot of engineers have already questioned Q about these speakers - it's impossible to get bass like that from one woofer - it's impossible to get the sensitivity etc.
The only technical info is from LL Beranek's "Loudspeakers" from 1940 with which all AN speaker boxes are designed. Though AN has their own crossover - different ports and wiring and box quality
All I can find specifically about them is from a kit site:
"All our speaker cabinets are made from different materials, front baffel is either plywood or soft chipboard, the wrap is dense MDF and the back is again either plywood or medium chipboard, no damping materials are applied to any part of the cabinet, whilst we use some bracing to distribute the cabinet resonances."
Do I hear cries of "cabinet colouration"??
Despite what you might think the guitar like structure of our cabinets greatly enhances efficiency, dynamics and sparkle and sounds less coloured than the alternative methods, which generally just move the resonans frequency and amplitude of the energy lower down in the spectrum, which in most cases is more audible, mainly because this also increases the duration of the resonances, our belief is that the shorter the duration of the energy is the less likely it is to interfere with the immediacy of the original transient.
For this reason, we also use only a minimal amount of wadding, and it has to be a specific type, preferably well cleaned and carted sheeps wool, positioning is critical"
Q once said to me that his woofers act differently in that they are not piston like but radiating like as well. Naturally efficiency is increased greatly if you let the box essentially become a woofer."
Basically though all of this is tidbits of info here and there - but you listen to his speakers and directly compare them to your choice of B&W within reason - and IMO B&W is simply totally out of their league. And Hell to me B&W is a great company. But the mid-band on the B&W is compressed, smaller, and nasal in comparison - with more of thumpy bass - you hear the speaker box on bass lines not the instrument's box. Tough to verbalize.
review of the E talking a bit about the sound and bass level.
http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteGoldmundEffect.html
And Maggie it's hard to really describe becaus they did many things really well and a lot differently than I've heard before and so some could think the difference is a lot better - sorta like Audio Note is to me. So I don't want to say anything really bad about them but they sounded kinda bright. Probably because of the lack of bass. They were a good 4 feet from the rear wall and 3-4 feet from side walls.
The dealer didn't like them at all - and he owned the best ones way back when when it was sheik to have them. He said they were more of a discussion piece than good speakers. What was it that you didn't like about them? They seem to measure as if they would get good bass - but something is amiss in the measurements because they don't sound right to me - granted a higher end model might be much better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
The only kind of technical description(which still isn't technical) is from the kit sites and only on the E - though the J is basically the same in that they use Foster tweeters and SEAS woofers.
you have an idea what exact SEAS woofer models are used for the AN-E and AN-J? how about the foster tweeters? my brother-in-law will be arriving in a couple of weeks from Illinois and i could have him ship some drivers from madisound.com.
while i still have plans to get the used pairs of AN-J, am thinking of a US$300 DIY project on either the type-J or type-E. while i expect driver-matching problems peter Q mentioned with this experiment, guess its worth the risk. should i fail to get close to the AN sound, i can sure use them for HT front, surround or even center speakers :D
cheers!
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"This kind of generalized analogy runs dangerously close to the Bose 901 edict that says that if you want to best reproduce a concert hall type of sound, then you must design speakers that have similar reflective characteristics"
The idea of using the reflective surfaces of a room to cause sound to reach the listener from many more directions than you get from a speaker that aims all of its sound directly at you has nothing to do with Q's claim to use a speaker box as a resonant cavity to amplify sound which is exactly what the box in a stringed insturment does. This in effect is also what bi polar flat panel speakers like magnaplanar and electrostatic speakers do. They just use different types of vibrating membranes to launch their sound and the specific radiating patterns are different.
The limitations of the Bose 901 IMO having owned a pair for the last 34 years among other speakers is its poor frequency response. This is due to its inability to reproduce the highest octave with 4 inch drivers and in models since series III the lowest octave. My experiments with using additional direct and reflecting tweeters and bi amping them with series one as well as additional equalization has yielded very satisfactory results. I am very pleased with the outcome.
A/N gives little technical information about what they do or how they do it. I don't have any convenient way to hear these speakers for myself so at this point the whole discussion of them seems a hodgpodge of hype and hooey. There isn't even a consistant design philosophy with the K series being an acoustic suspension design and the J and E series being ported. Visiting their web site doesn't help any. It's worse than technobabble. It's just babble.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
A/N gives little technical information about what they do or how they do it. I don't have any convenient way to hear these speakers for myself so at this point the whole discussion of them seems a hodgpodge of hype and hooey. There isn't even a consistant design philosophy with the K series being an acoustic suspension design and the J and E series being ported. Visiting their web site doesn't help any. It's worse than technobabble. It's just babble.
Audio Note's philosophy which is described thoroughly in "Are You On The Road to Audio Hell?" is exactly the anti-thesis of the philosophy behind brands that rely almost solely on technical measurements and technical jargon to sell their products. Let's face it: appreciating music reproduction is hardly a technical experience.
I think forums like this are a good way to begin our journey in seeking our own audio nirvana. however, we should ultimately decide on what's good and bad based on what we hear. if you're really serious in your search for your ideal 2-channel system, convenience should be no obstacle. after all, if there's a will there should always be a way.
i learned that audio note products are great based on actual listening experience not on technobabble. :)
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Since "technical jargon" and "technical measurements" are just meaningless babble, perhaps audio equipment should be designed by musicians and music lovers and leave electrical and electronics engineers and scientists out of it altogether. Perhaps electrical lighting should be designed by people who like to read and refrigerators and stoves should be designed by people who like to cook or eat. Forget automotive engineers, cars should be designed by drivers.
This is the kind of anti science garbage logic and reasoning that finds its way into the advertising hype of people who have nothing of real value to sell. Like audiophile cable manufacturers. Perhaps you should consider the Mini/Max preamp hyped elsewhere on the amp/preamp message board. No technical specs there either. No tecnical information, not even technobabble. Just babble. Just like Audio Note.
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Benil
Don't think there isn't a strong technical basis for what they do - there is. One reviewer went through a tour to see how they design and build their speakers and they have in house mic measurements and a computer program they developed in house. Driver matching to .2db they do on all their K modesl and up somehting KEF can't even manage on their flagship Reference models.
The difference here is Auio Note is first and foremost A SET maker - not a speaker maker. They are not big enough to build everythig in house. Peter Q bought the best available speaker designs and still may have them like the big Apogee's, Horns, Snells, Quads and a load of others. Obviously looking for speakers that would be well appointed to Single Ended relatively low power amps - though do note his SETs are not especialy low power many ~20-30 watts which is enough to drive most speakers.
He chose Snell - and not really Snell but the same design that Snell used to improve LL Beranek's original loudspeaker design from the 1940's. By taking a proven good design and making it a lot better there is no need to re-invent the wheel. Quad and Magnepan have been around for 30 years and the new models are tweaked versions - lets try a ribbon lets make it bigger but the principle is identical.
When Voyd went down Peter bought the rights and his second best turntable is now a modified Voyd Reference(already widely considered the best in the world). Well now maybe second best. DA converters are based off the very first ones that came out in 1982. But Sony and Phillips didn't have the engineering ability to make it work Peter and crew obviously have much better technical knowledge when it comes to solid state and digital technology because they managed to make it work and sound better. It is a frowned upon process by some - but it sounds better bottom line. Interesting for no times oversampling you can hit the machine and it won't skip. Why have error correction if you build a player that makes no errors to start with.
The proof is in the sound frankly - he doesn't advertise that many magazines and mastering studios use his stuff - he doesn't advertise the specs - not even somehting basic like the watts - not even in the manual - he is selling to people who LISTEN to music - if you want to buy a spec sheet and 5 pages of technical discussion that's fine too.
The speakers were chosen based on their sound in the first place - not a specific bias in design. The K is sealed to reduce their cost. Peter wanted to use a woofer with foam surrounds but in order to get the specific driver he wanted he would have to order 1000 units. So it's not his ideal woofer choice with rubber. OIf he was the size of B&W this would not be a problem and the K would no doubt be a much better loudspeaker - as it is it's already damn good.
Ask 925011 about the kits - you could probably build an E to around 1/4 the price. The Audio Note Kits forum at Audioasylum can help you with building and how do it cheap. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/au...ekits/bbs.html
There are 25 Audio Note Dealers in the United States - and if you're in the UK and interested to hear his products - Peter will have you to his home to demonstrate his gear. Pretty nice guy
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