Upgraded to Audio Note J - and other musings.

[RGA]

i don't remember the authors requiring that one listen to various genres when testing equipment. i could be wrong but my understanding is that so long as there is enough variety in the recording and mastering conditions of the titles one tests, the 'comparison by contrast' method should apply. Qvortrup himself listens mostly to classical stuff, i believe.



i understand what you say. in fact, i think that's what is generally understood as the "ultimate" test of reproduction. However, do you, at least, admit that some LIVE performances do not sound LIVE at all? if you can tell me that this statement:

"Even if we were present at every recording session, we would have no way of interpreting the electrical information which feeds through the microphones to the master tape - let alone to the resulting CD or LP - into a sensory experience against which we could evaluate a given audio system. "

is wrong, i will rest my case.

If you have a question on Classical music - ask Peter. He believes it the pinnacle of music and the reference of how to design stereo equipment from a music perspective. His daughter made him listen to some pop stuff and Peter said that while some of it is pleasant - it won't last.

Classical and perhaps jazz - will stand the test of time. So in that regard I agree with Peter. But some music works in the time in which we live. Anti-Vietnam music was all over during the 60's and 70's but much of it or thevast majority is completely gone - except for people who heard the first go around. People forget quickly rock and pop - sure certain albums stick with baby boomers - Dark Side of the Moon etc but Michael Jackson? He'll be the pedophile that never got jailed and he used to be a black guy ohh and he sold more albums than anyone else - but in 50 years unlesas you were a Michael Jackson fan I doubt I could name you a single song outside of Thriller the guy ever did. And I'll only remember Thriller because I like Zombie movies. In a 1000 years if the human race is still around they will still revere Beethoven and Mozart - and it will be "Who the hell are the Rolling Stones?"

This is not a knock I enjoy listening to much of rock and pop - I defend Madonna and Gloria Estefan etc- the music is fun it has a good beat to it makes you want to dance - great - can Madonna sing? Good enough for the song - but can she really SING? I recently picked up a 3 disc set of Ella Fitgerald - and frankly just about all the singers I hear on the radio today are utterly outclassed as singers - but I am 30 and for the last 15 years I have really been listening to music - and over that time most of the music I listen to is from my time - and my time frankly sucks donkey balls for the most part - I mean if the Goo Goo Dolls and Nirvanna is considered great music then I understand a bit more where people Like Peter Qvortrup and Skeptic are coming from. I don't agree that just because they don't play classical it's junk - but I seriously doubt it will last - and as musicians these bands' level of talent is suspect - Bob Dylan can't sing. Santana is a heck of good guitarist - if he isn't considered the best I don't know who would be.

Hell I'm not totally sure if Ella will last - but if she doesn't then nothing on the radio right now will I mean Britney Spears and Hillary Duff and whatever 4-5 member little boy band with the high voices are frankly irritating - but the market is kids - when I was a kid I liked the same kind of dreck - Motley Crue Even have a T-Shirt.

When you have a colllection 35000+ strong mostly classical music and you have a passion for it you want your prized collection to be faithfully reproduced.

[benil]

Sometimes acoustics are
excellent, sometimes they are poor. I don't know what else there is when you listen to live music.

its not just about acoustics. for one, live orchestra music at 115db is not something i will try to reproduce in my playback system. if its too loud, music loses it balance, pitch, tone and timbre in a live performance.

some instruments also sound disproportionately loud depending on your seating position. you get problems everywhere. whether you're located in the front or back row or whatever some instruments will drown the sound of the others. using mics and PA systems, as you cited above, are not any good either.

Whatever this guy is trying to say, it makes no sense to me.

how can you say it doesn't make sense if you say you don't even get what they're saying?

you yourself said that recording engineers use different approaches in their craft and i agree because titles handled by different engineers sound very different from each other. the recording process done for the buddy rich sessions would have sounded well with AR gear but stuff done by other engineers may not and unless a comparison by contrast methodology is undertaken, there is no way to find out whether AR indeed sounds 'less inaccurate' vis-a-vis other gear or not.

[benil]

If you have a question on Classical music - ask Peter. He believes it the pinnacle of music and the reference of how to design stereo equipment from a music perspective. His daughter made him listen to some pop stuff and Peter said that while some of it is pleasant - it won't last.

Classical and perhaps jazz - will stand the test of time. So in that regard I agree with Peter. But some music works in the time in which we live. Anti-Vietnam music was all over during the 60's and 70's but much of it or thevast majority is completely gone - except for people who heard the first go around. People forget quickly rock and pop - sure certain albums stick with baby boomers - Dark Side of the Moon etc but Michael Jackson? He'll be the pedophile that never got jailed and he used to be a black guy ohh and he sold more albums than anyone else - but in 50 years unlesas you were a Michael Jackson fan I doubt I could name you a single song outside of Thriller the guy ever did. And I'll only remember Thriller because I like Zombie movies. In a 1000 years if the human race is still around they will still revere Beethoven and Mozart - and it will be "Who the hell are the Rolling Stones?"

This is not a knock I enjoy listening to much of rock and pop - I defend Madonna and Gloria Estefan etc- the music is fun it has a good beat to it makes you want to dance - great - can Madonna sing? Good enough for the song - but can she really SING? I recently picked up a 3 disc set of Ella Fitgerald - and frankly just about all the singers I hear on the radio today are utterly outclassed as singers - but I am 30 and for the last 15 years I have really been listening to music - and over that time most of the music I listen to is from my time - and my time frankly sucks donkey balls for the most part - I mean if the Goo Goo Dolls and Nirvanna is considered great music then I understand a bit more where people Like Peter Qvortrup and Skeptic are coming from. I don't agree that just because they don't play classical it's junk - but I seriously doubt it will last - and as musicians these bands' level of talent is suspect - Bob Dylan can't sing. Santana is a heck of good guitarist - if he isn't considered the best I don't know who would be.

Hell I'm not totally sure if Ella will last - but if she doesn't then nothing on the radio right now will I mean Britney Spears and Hillary Duff and whatever 4-5 member little boy band with the high voices are frankly irritating - but the market is kids - when I was a kid I liked the same kind of dreck - Motley Crue Even have a T-Shirt.

When you have a colllection 35000+ strong mostly classical music and you have a passion for it you want your prized collection to be faithfully reproduced.

hello RGA,

i think i'll learn to appreciate classical too someday...by the time i can afford to buy as many records as i want. for now, i'm concentrating on building up my jazz and pop/rock record collection.

i guess i can't blame people who like listening to stuff they grew up with specially if they hear it played in much better playback gear. Peter must have been raised by parents who also listened mostly to classical.

anyway, i've heard a number of digital orchestral titles (e.g. TUTTI, HDCD orchestral sampler) played in Audio note playback gear and it the soundstage is just amazingly large considering that its being amplified by an 8-wpc amp.

[skeptic]

"its not just about acoustics. for one, live orchestra music at 115db is not something i will try to

reproduce in my playback system. if its too loud, music loses it balance, pitch, tone and timbre in a

live performance."

So now you take issue with Beethoven. Too bad you weren't around when he was writing it to
tell him "tone it down" Ludwig, you're hurting my ears. Maybe he wrote it loud because he was
going deaf. And then again maybe he just knew what he was doing. Actually, most orchestral
crecendos rarely exceed 100 db in the audience. But the fact that much of the sound comes from
the acoustics of the hall makes the experience entirely different from listening to loud music from
a home sound system of the types we use. At that level, sound systems are blasting. Massive
musical forces like symphony orchestras, pipe organs, and large choruses sound powerful.
Perhaps it's the limitations of our primitive technology which cannot reproduce this music accurately
which makes them unpopular. Try going to a live performance by symphony orchestra once and
see what real music sounds like. Then when you return to your artificial reproduced world of
recordings, you will understand just how pathetic the "state of the art" really is.

"some instruments also sound disproportionately loud depending on your seating position. you get

problems everywhere. whether you're located in the front or back row or whatever some instruments

will drown the sound of the others. using mics and PA systems, as you cited above, are not any

good either."

Get a ticket that will seat you in the center of the auditorium about halfway between the orchestra
and the back wall. This will give you the most balanced sound. The system of seating musicians
in a symphony orchestra was invented in the United States about 100 years ago and has been
universally adopted. The rest is up to the conductor and the composer. Listen to some of the
best music by Tchaikowsky, Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak and you may get the first taste you've ever
had of real music. Try to pick a concert that has at least one symphony and one piano or violin
concerto by one of the composers I've mentioned. Maybe once you've heard what real music is
about, you will throw all of your current recodings away and buy new ones. Then again, mabye
you'll just sell your stereo equipment and buy concert tickets. BTW, if a "live performnace" is
being artifically amplified with a sound reinforcement system either in an auditorium or in a "concert
in the park" you might as well pack up and go home. You didn't get your money's worth. Real
music comes from real instruments, not audio amplifiers and loudspeakers.

[gonefishin]

dang RGA...while I do enjoy reading your subjective posts...many of your posts are tough to read. Simply because you've got everything already figured out. Your posts read as tho you know everything plus a little more. This may or may not be your intention...but that's exactly what your posts seem to portray('least when I read them).

If I'm wrong...and you do, in fact, know everything, I can only hope that I approach the knowledge you have within my short time on earth.

I recently picked up a 3 disc set of Ella Fitgerald - and frankly just about all the singers I hear on the radio today are utterly outclassed as singers

If you like Ella...another singer I enjoy quite a bit is Eva Cassidy. Without knowing what type of music you really enjoy. I'd highly recommend (to my listening tastes) either Live At Blues Alley if you really don't care for "slower" type music. But if you don't mind some slower songs...you can give SongBird a try. Two albums that I really enjoy alot! And man oh man...can that lady sing!


again...take care all>>>>>>>

[RGA]

Gonefishin

Everything figured out nah. But I've simply decided not to pay attention to what reviews have to say - other than for interest sake but not to help me buy. Why not become the reviewer yourself? Same with movies - I was planning on being a film critic. And the pervades other things a bit like when I talk about audio products. It's all totally subjective.

I can say Audio Note is the best I've heard - because it is - but there are plenty of products i have not heard and may never get the chance to hear. Jack Gribble on AudioAsylum gets out more and has heard the ridiculous priced gear. He owns Spendor speakers but loves Audio Note - so there is a good chance that his taste is in line with mine so I might like the Spendors.

Plenty of stuff sounds great. One thing I do like about my speakers is that frankly they hold my attention when I listen to classical or older recordings from Ella. They don't fatigue me or disinterst me and I can quickly adjust to the older recordings.

All you need to do is go out and listen - it ain't rocket science - buy whatever you like that makes you like music more. That is subjective.

[gonefishin]

Rga, How many shops do you have where you live? I know you've mentioned your favorite...but are there others? It does seem that some people are a bit luckier in respect to number of speakers available for audition. While I (near Chicago) could certainly have a larger number of shops...we're still pretty lucky that we have a wide variety of shops to listen to equipment at. You may have to drive a bit at times...but there's a nice variety of differing types of speakers, sources, amps (tube and $$SS) and music to listen to. To add on to this there's some dang friendly people who will help you out if you want to audition a speaker (or amp) that they might own that isn't readily available to the public.

Even if you may not have a large number of shops to go to in your area. It still sounds as tho your lucky enough to have at least one shop that sells some real nice sounding stuff. It would have been extremely difficult to pursue this hobby if I lived in an area where I didn't have access to listen to different speakers, amp etc. But the internet has helped myself thru searches for equipment and people to discuss equipment with...so no complaints about the internets assistance! Although I suppose the option that people who don't have any shops near them is to just listen to music. Maybe that ain't so bad after all

If your ever coming down south (hehe) past my neck of the woods you can certainly stop by to hear some homemade PA speakers ( ) and either shoot the sh!t over coffee or a beer...or maybe someone may have a recommendation for a place to listen to some gear, that may be on the way of your travels (where ever your going). (although you will have a tough time finding speakers that you like more than your audionotes...it's still fun to simply listen to other stuff)


dan

[RGA]

I would like to go to one of the Audio Shows sometime - maybe an excuse to have a holiday in Vega or Ontario etc.

You can learn about the products and meet the owners and discuss or argue with them all you wish

You can also see who cops out by having a static display - because the room sounds bad. Funny good gear should sound good no matter how bad the room - and more to the point every company is in the same boat so everything is fair.

Ohh and you can gamble too. Among other semi-nefarious things.

[gonefishin]

Funny good gear should sound good no matter how bad the room - and more to the point every company is in the same boat so everything is fair.

Hmmm...I would argue that while you can certainly get a flavor of what gear may sound like at some shows, it would only be in hast to make a final judgment on what any piece of gear sounds like at a show (especially speakers).

Even tho all the companies may have similar rooms, this hardly makes things fair for each and every speaker. While one speaker may have no problem performing near its best in any room of any smaller dimension. Other speakers may need to be brought out into the room to perform their best...still others may not perform well in a small room.

The room can be one element that can really hurt or help the performance of audio equipment...and while a treated or untreated room may be identical for each manufacturer. The speaker positioning or required room size is not going to be equal from speaker to speaker. One speaker can easily have an advantage over the other simply because of room size, shape or usable space for placement. This is even if all rooms are treated (or untreated) identically.

Even when auditioning equipment to buy, I think it's important to try and get an in home audition for this very reason.

What will the speaker sound like in your given room?

What will the speaker sound like with the placement restrictions you may (or may not) have?

Does the speaker match your room well?

Is your room getting excited at any certain frequencies that your placement restrictions may prevent you from overcoming?

Are you able to properly treat your room? if no...can you "semi" treat it?


Are you able to bring the speakers "out" from the rear wall enough for decent performance...and after doing so...what has this changed with the rest of the room? Are you far enough from the speakers now? Is the rear wall right behind you at this point?


Some speakers will have an advantage in certain rooms...while others may be easily adaptable in any room...this doesn't mean that each speaker had equal opportunity to perform near their best. Only that some may fit better in said room...nothing definitive.


dan

[Woochifer]

Woochifer
Hey I only attack Harman because speaker makers that emulate the approach and their own products sound to me like crap. Simple.

So, because you don't like the speakers that they make, that means that all of their research and findings are therefore invalid and entirely marketing driven? The concept of modes is one of the first things you learn when a basic physics class covers the concept of waves. And because Harman's white papers relate that basic concept to how speakers interact with rooms, anything that they say about room modes is also a marketing driven lie? Talk about killing the messenger and ignoring the message.

And your criticisms include ALL of the Infinity, JBL, and Revel models? Since I don't think you've listened to a broad cross-section of Harman's family speakers, you can't make that kind of generalized comment about the entire company and their entire body of research. If your entire exposure to Harman's speakers is the entry level JBLs, then you've missed the boat entirely. What about the Infinity Intermezzo and Kappa lines, or the Revels? Those lines are voiced very differently and cost a lot more than the lower level JBL models, but created using the same acoustical testing facilities. Like I said, READ THE PAPERS before you go blasting the research.

Advertising from AN - none. They have a web-site so you can purchase kit and speaker parts - and after you go into a store and listen to them and the dealer tells you yes these speakers are called Audio Note you can go home and look it up - they were not pre-sold to you. Other than the chat I've been providing them - most buyers heard the product before hearing about the company. And speakers are one of the smallest thing they do. Amps and Dacs are their big things.

Hmmm, I spotted a full page Audio Note ad in either Stereophile or one of the other audio magazines last month. That's how I found out that there's actually a dealer about 30 miles from me, so I can actually try them out one of these days. I don't see anything wrong with letting a customer know about the product and where they can buy it. You seem to look at the lack of advertising as some kind of badge of honor. I look at it as a way to connect with target customers who might be interested in a company's product, and it makes sense for any rational business that can afford to advertise in a targeted magazine like that to do so. Audio Note's just behaving rationally like any other profitable business that wants to grow.

They don't spend money advertising - the alternate web-sites are dealer run or fan run.

Yeah, but their own website looks pretty slick and professional to me.

The Harman research I have no faith in when their products may as well be a clock radio in comparison. The proof will be in the sound - and they failed in their proof - easy to prove it against other speakers that are also trying to design home theater speakers - let's get them real competition. But if that happened something might beat what they sell. SO they will handpick what are the competitors - and they don;t list the speakers in the white papers I've read - just because something is expensive doesn't make it good. Choosing a speaker with obvious detriments for all I know. I want the specific speaker so that I can run the same blind test - without that it's in house for them and so what good is it to a consumer? Harman is the one you can read all about - Harman sells all these speakers - the implication is what? It's all wonderous until you listen to them - and even then if the competion is similar which most of it is - you can't really be sure which is better in most stores - so hey lets go back to the Harman research - it must be correct - it sounds all scientific - almost but enough so for the average Joe.

Your obsession with brand identity really blinds you to the value of actually reading up on what some of the research findings are. You obviously don't understand the purpose of the research and the white papers if all you keep asking for is a ranking of speakers. If you base the credibility of a body of research based entirely on a limited sample of Harman speakers, that's just delusional. I mean you're already conjuring up counterarguments to the research before you even read what it actually says! Making up all these hypothetical scenarios and baseless assumptions to try and discredit the research just demonstrates a lack of intellectual curiosity, since you haven't even bothered to read what Harman makes available to the public. I'm sure you don't find criticisms of Fahrenheit 9/11 by people who haven't bothered to see the movie especially credible.

But hey I don't really care - sheesh you try and give a little company a voice in a sea of marketing because I'm like wow why can't the big boys make anything like that(err in fact they can they choose to sell looks). And before I get nailed for just re-stating what Audio Note says - I re-state it because that is in fact the way it sounds. It is either they are designing with looks as a main focus or their speakers are utterly inferior because of their designers - either way the proof IMO is in the sound - and why I'm so ready to believe in Audio Note's position is because upon hearing their gear reading their statements about the competition - hearing both sides products - then it is obvious to me who is correct - at least correct in the terms of the physical representation of their approach - perhaps the theory is correct and just very badly executed.

Hmmm, judging by their full page ads and slickly designed website, Audio Note sure as hell is marketing like a big boy. It's fine to appreciate their speakers, but don't try to ascribe all these other external attributes like their underdog status or small business aspirations or lack of advertising as some kind of validation that what they are doing is right and what everybody else does is wrong.

Like it or not, a lot of people appreciate the sound of speakers that made use of the original NRC research. Something had to have been done right, otherwise how would all of these Canadian speaker companies have successfully emerged in the U.S. market? They all started small, so obviously it wasn't entirely marketing or hype that led to their success. Maybe they just produced a good product whose sound spoke for itself.

It may also be the case that I fall into the minority like those in the listening sessions that do not in fact choose those speakers they say MOST people in their sessions select. And Hifi choice measured the E and said that the above 800hz the speaker's measure about as good as speakers can get(with a slight recession from 2khz to 4khz). From 200hz -800hz they are a "shade strong" - below that is the speaker's strength with deep bass and very low distortion(All this measured where the manufacturer believes is the worst possible position - 1 meter from walls and no corner). Looking at JUST Soundstage measurements there would be no need to buy a speaker above the Paradigm Monitor 5 - and frankly to me there damn well is.

Given that you've never done a blind speaker comparison, or even see the need for comparing speakers blind, how would you know how you would fare in a blind listening test? You're making all these presumptions that you somehow fall outside of what most people would prefer. Until you put your beliefs to the test, it's nothing more than a guess or wishful thinking on your part.

Soundstage has measured plenty of speakers that are generally more accurate than the Monitor 5 in the frequency response, so that's a false argument.

[skeptic]

You left out Tannoy. I think they own Tannoy too.

[RGA]

So, because you don't like the speakers that they make, that means that all of their research and findings are therefore invalid and entirely marketing driven? The concept of modes is one of the first things you learn when a basic physics class covers the concept of waves. And because Harman's white papers relate that basic concept to how speakers interact with rooms, anything that they say about room modes is also a marketing driven lie? Talk about killing the messenger and ignoring the message.

Umm they have known about room modes since 1930 you're point is what - that Hatrman knows basics physics good.

And your criticisms include ALL of the Infinity, JBL, and Revel models? Since I don't think you've listened to a broad cross-section of Harman's family speakers, you can't make that kind of generalized comment about the entire company and their entire body of research. If your entire exposure to Harman's speakers is the entry level JBLs, then you've missed the boat entirely. What about the Infinity Intermezzo and Kappa lines, or the Revels? Those lines are voiced very differently and cost a lot more than the lower level JBL models, but created using the same acoustical testing facilities. Like I said, READ THE PAPERS before you go blasting the research.

I have not heard Revel and Infinity stopped making the Rabos speakers - the Kappa line was always and stil is irritating. Other companies have bought into the Harman approach like energy and Paradigm and PSB - and I am VERY familiar with them from their top of the lines on down(with the excpetion of the Paradigm Sigs).

Hmmm, I spotted a full page Audio Note ad in either Stereophile or one of the other audio magazines last month. That's how I found out that there's actually a dealer about 30 miles from me, so I can actually try them out one of these days. I don't see anything wrong with letting a customer know about the product and where they can buy it. You seem to look at the lack of advertising as some kind of badge of honor. I look at it as a way to connect with target customers who might be interested in a company's product, and it makes sense for any rational business that can afford to advertise in a targeted magazine like that to do so. Audio Note's just behaving rationally like any other profitable business that wants to grow.

Which issue number and page? And make sure it is Audio Note that ran the ad - Dealers are entiteled to run ads as they often do. Especially when a product is reviewed - dealers will want to jump in and say "Look we carry them - come to this address."

Yeah, but their own website looks pretty slick and professional to me.

Really I think it's pretty poor - the site was originally set-up to order kit parts. It is barely ever updated - and IMO hardly a good web-site - it's something that one could build from software included with your computer - and even then the site was made that good for them by a fan.

Your obsession with brand identity really blinds you to the value of actually reading up on what some of the research findings are. You obviously don't understand the purpose of the research and the white papers if all you keep asking for is a ranking of speakers. If you base the credibility of a body of research based entirely on a limited sample of Harman speakers, that's just delusional. I mean you're already conjuring up counterarguments to the research before you even read what it actually says! Making up all these hypothetical scenarios and baseless assumptions to try and discredit the research just demonstrates a lack of intellectual curiosity, since you haven't even bothered to read what Harman makes available to the public. I'm sure you don't find criticisms of Fahrenheit 9/11 by people who haven't bothered to see the movie especially credible.

I have read the research - and they are trying to draw a conclusion that most people will choose a sound "type" versus other sound "types" once you root through all the extra babble. The three elements they find people will "prefer" are articulated as is their evaluation sessions - they are not specifically stated however with any actual per listener listening sessions. Psychological testing needs to be reproducable by an outside body to confirm - the studies avoid speaker brands intentionally because they want to be able to talk about sound "types." That is fine but it doesn't HELP ME when I'm out buying a speaker. And because Harman or JBL or whoever links the research off of their site it gives a strong implication that their speakers meet this "Ideal." They don't or more to the point many other brands may be meeting it better anyway.

Hi-fi Choice's blind listening panels does not back up the notion that Harman or other manufacturers inspired by that same research are any better than those not using those facilities. Presumably Harman's research means that they are making speakers that follow their ideal - and external listening reveals that the ideal is not for everyone. Though the Rabos Intermezzo did extremeley well(So I looked on the site to listen to them and they're gone) the Kappa series did not - and the lower lines of JBL to me is a marked step down with treble spikes that annoy me. And since ME is the person I'm buying speakers for then ME is the only person I have to justify my reaction.

Hmmm, judging by their full page ads and slickly designed website, Audio Note sure as hell is marketing like a big boy. It's fine to appreciate their speakers, but don't try to ascribe all these other external attributes like their underdog status or small business aspirations or lack of advertising as some kind of validation that what they are doing is right and what everybody else does is wrong.

Audio Note does not run ads - dealers may. As for the Site - chances are you're not going to see the web-sirte until after you heard the product - unless people like me talk about them and other people then go to their web-site. Even Sugden has a web-site these days. This does not mean there is ZERO marketing - people have to go to a site to be able to find where a dealer is located and to buy a woofer or to state a new product. There is still not much information. They want people to listen - which requires people to know about your product - but if you can't see the difference or only think it's a matter of how much advertising then you're not seeing it the way I'm seeing it.

Like it or not, a lot of people appreciate the sound of speakers that made use of the original NRC research. Something had to have been done right, otherwise how would all of these Canadian speaker companies have successfully emerged in the U.S. market? They all started small, so obviously it wasn't entirely marketing or hype that led to their success. Maybe they just produced a good product whose sound spoke for itself.

Yes you can think that if you wish. I would take Paradigm/PSB/Energy over most Advent, Bose, JBLs, and Cerwin Vegas of the 80's and 90s as well.

None of them has any real precence in Europe except JBL but JBL has a separate division there.

Given that you've never done a blind speaker comparison, or even see the need for comparing speakers blind, how would you know how you would fare in a blind listening test? You're making all these presumptions that you somehow fall outside of what most people would prefer. Until you put your beliefs to the test, it's nothing more than a guess or wishful thinking on your part.

I see the need to do a blind listening sessions when price or site or name bias is a factor and the differences are such that I don;t want to pay $2k for a speaker that may be no better than a $400.00 model. It's pretty tough to level match when the Audio Note's superior bass extension and more open airy top end is so superior to what is on tap from ALL the other speakers that Soundhounds carries that I see no point to doing such a test. Especially when ALL of the biases that do exist are ALL ALSO in those other manufacturers favour. And my own biases supported those other speakers. And the blind sessions that have been done externally revealed the speakers to come out on top anyway. Those sessions allow the speakers to be run in stereo and no curtailment of bass applied - as it should be.

Soundstage has measured plenty of speakers that are generally more accurate than the Monitor 5 in the frequency response, so that's a false argument.

Plenty Which ones? more than 5 more than 10 - I have looked at almost every single speaker on the site. I'm sure this is considered to be one of the better measuring speakers around. Fascinating as this is to me they sound like the equivelent of cow dung to the sense of smell.

[Woochifer]

I have not heard Revel and Infinity stopped making the Rabos speakers - the Kappa line was always and stil is irritating. Other companies have bought into the Harman approach like energy and Paradigm and PSB - and I am VERY familiar with them from their top of the lines on down(with the excpetion of the Paradigm Sigs).

Their RABOS system is incorporated into most of their powered subwoofers and tower speakers with powered subs, that includes the Prelude MTS series. You're right that the Intermezzos aren't made right now. I find it very hard to believe that you would compare the original Kappa series with the Energy, Paradigm, and PSB speakers because they had a very different type of sound (and it's not like those Canadian brands sound exactly the same either). I brought up the Revel and Infinity examples because they are voiced differently from the JBLs, yet use the same test facilities.

Which issue number and page? And make sure it is Audio Note that ran the ad - Dealers are entiteled to run ads as they often do. Especially when a product is reviewed - dealers will want to jump in and say "Look we carry them - come to this address."

I'll look it up for you. Might have been The Absolute Sound, but I distinctly remember the ad because I was able to locate a dealer in my area through the ad. It was an Audio Note ad because it listed the types of products that they made and it listed all of their North American dealers. Plus, it used the same font scheme as their website.

Really I think it's pretty poor - the site was originally set-up to order kit parts. It is barely ever updated - and IMO hardly a good web-site - it's something that one could build from software included with your computer - and even then the site was made that good for them by a fan.

Well, your opinion, but it's certainly a lot better setup than a lot of other audio company websites, especially the "little guys" that you like to tout.

I have read the research - and they are trying to draw a conclusion that most people will choose a sound "type" versus other sound "types" once you root through all the extra babble. The three elements they find people will "prefer" are articulated as is their evaluation sessions - they are not specifically stated however with any actual per listener listening sessions. Psychological testing needs to be reproducable by an outside body to confirm - the studies avoid speaker brands intentionally because they want to be able to talk about sound "types." That is fine but it doesn't HELP ME when I'm out buying a speaker. And because Harman or JBL or whoever links the research off of their site it gives a strong implication that their speakers meet this "Ideal." They don't or more to the point many other brands may be meeting it better anyway.

Again, you're focusing in on ONE aspect of the research that they post on their website. Your whole approach obsesses about rank order, and that's not the point of what Harman posts on their website. Like I said, READ THE WHITE PAPERS if you want to learn about how to calculate and identify locations of room modes, compensate for acoustical issues, properly setup a two channel or multichannel system, interpret various audio measures, etc. Those papers proved very beneficial when setting up and calibrating my system, but I guess if I knew everything about everything, then I would not need to do any reading.

Hi-fi Choice's blind listening panels does not back up the notion that Harman or other manufacturers inspired by that same research are any better than those not using those facilities. Presumably Harman's research means that they are making speakers that follow their ideal - and external listening reveals that the ideal is not for everyone. Though the Rabos Intermezzo did extremeley well(So I looked on the site to listen to them and they're gone) the Kappa series did not - and the lower lines of JBL to me is a marked step down with treble spikes that annoy me. And since ME is the person I'm buying speakers for then ME is the only person I have to justify my reaction.

Hi-Fi Choice's goal is about rank ordering and slotting, and since that's your singular obsession with determining the validity of research, then it obviously appeals to you. What Harman tests for is a LOT more complex than that. Just because a company does the same type of research does not mean that the speakers will sound the same. I certainly would never mistake a JBL for a Paradigm model. And in my listenings, Energy speakers have some different characteristics from Paradigms as well. Ever since Toole setup the new testing facilities, Harman has made huge improvements to JBL's lineup, but they did not fundamentally deviate from the "JBL sound" either. If I accept your argument that the same research would result in the same sound, then shouldn't all of Harman's speakers and those Canadian speakers actually sound identical? They sure don't sound that way to me.

Audio Note does not run ads - dealers may. As for the Site - chances are you're not going to see the web-sirte until after you heard the product - unless people like me talk about them and other people then go to their web-site. Even Sugden has a web-site these days. This does not mean there is ZERO marketing - people have to go to a site to be able to find where a dealer is located and to buy a woofer or to state a new product. There is still not much information. They want people to listen - which requires people to know about your product - but if you can't see the difference or only think it's a matter of how much advertising then you're not seeing it the way I'm seeing it.

Like I said, nothing wrong with Audio Note running ads. Your defensiveness about this issue is puzzling given that I would assume that you would want word to get out about the company. And if they're doing well enough to justify paying for a full-page ad in an audio magazine, shouldn't that be a good thing?

Yes you can think that if you wish. I would take Paradigm/PSB/Energy over most Advent, Bose, JBLs, and Cerwin Vegas of the 80's and 90s as well.

None of them has any real precence in Europe except JBL but JBL has a separate division there.

Well, it's not like Audio Note has a huge presence here either. We live in North America and I can find plenty of brands that suit my preferences here easily, so I don't really care what gets sold in Europe.

I see the need to do a blind listening sessions when price or site or name bias is a factor and the differences are such that I don;t want to pay $2k for a speaker that may be no better than a $400.00 model. It's pretty tough to level match when the Audio Note's superior bass extension and more open airy top end is so superior to what is on tap from ALL the other speakers that Soundhounds carries that I see no point to doing such a test. Especially when ALL of the biases that do exist are ALL ALSO in those other manufacturers favour. And my own biases supported those other speakers. And the blind sessions that have been done externally revealed the speakers to come out on top anyway. Those sessions allow the speakers to be run in stereo and no curtailment of bass applied - as it should be.

Quite the contrary, it's VERY easy to level match using a narrowband test tone and SPL meter. Jot down the differential in the SPL, and you make that adjustment for all of your listenings. Not all that complicated, and you only have to do the measurement once at the beginning. But, if you don't believe in measurements, then that point is moot.

And how do you define your own biases? You hate metal dome tweeters, you favor small audio companies, you hate things that are actively marketed, you generally favor European components, you hate speakers that made use of the NRC research in their development. How does your preference for Audio Note run contrary those biases? It's fine to state a preference, but don't pass your preference for Audio Note off as something that ran completely against the grain of what the sight biases would also point towards.

Like I said, if you're so sure that your listening acumen is equally valid under blind conditions, then put it to the test. I'm well aware of how sight biases influence my own judgments because I have put them to the test before and found that sight bias has a significant influence that needs to be minimized wherever possible.

Plenty Which ones? more than 5 more than 10 - I have looked at almost every single speaker on the site. I'm sure this is considered to be one of the better measuring speakers around. Fascinating as this is to me they sound like the equivelent of cow dung to the sense of smell.

This fascination you have with dung would make for quite a psychological profile.

As far as Soundstage measurements go, for starters, Paradigm's own Studio and Signature series models measure flatter than the Monitor 5, with less dipping in the midrange and peaking in the highs. It's not like the Monitor 5 has a perfectly flat response (and plenty of speakers have better bass response), and the others don't either. Why are you so sure that the Monitor 5 is one of the "better measuring speakers around"? Are you saying that if a speaker measures well on the frequency response, then it sounds like "the equivelent [sp] of cow dung to the sense of smell"? So, I guess a colored and inconsistent response measurement should be one of the design goals?

The Monitor 5 measures well, but so do a lot of others. All of them have measurable inaccuracies. The B&Ws, Revels, and Dynaudios also measure well, but all of them have very different areas where their inaccuracies occur. Their inaccuracies aren't huge, but they obviously make a difference in the sound. The frequency response charts give you an idea of where the inaccuracies occur, and you can make your own judgment as to which one would be better for you.

[skeptic]

Finally something we can agree on!

"Really I think it's pretty poor - the site was originally set-up to order kit parts. It is barely ever updated - and IMO hardly a good web-site "

The AN web site is so poorly designed that you can't even get down to the bottom of the menu on the left side of main page if you have a couple of extra tool bars on your screen because they didn't include a scroll bar.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/

The minimalist approach doesn't work for web sites any better than it works for amplifier or speaker designs but when you have limited knowledge, a religous fervor of how the world is or should be, and are pigheaded to boot, this is the kind of results you get.

[RGA]

Their RABOS system is incorporated into most of their powered subwoofers and tower speakers with powered subs, that includes the Prelude MTS series. You're right that the Intermezzos aren't made right now. I find it very hard to believe that you would compare the original Kappa series with the Energy, Paradigm, and PSB speakers because they had a very different type of sound (and it's not like those Canadian brands sound exactly the same either). I brought up the Revel and Infinity examples because they are voiced differently from the JBLs, yet use the same test facilities.


Again, you're focusing in on ONE aspect of the research that they post on their website. Your whole approach obsesses about rank order, and that's not the point of what Harman posts on their website. Like I said, READ THE WHITE PAPERS if you want to learn about how to calculate and identify locations of room modes, compensate for acoustical issues, properly setup a two channel or multichannel system, interpret various audio measures, etc. Those papers proved very beneficial when setting up and calibrating my system, but I guess if I knew everything about everything, then I would not need to do any reading.

Let me be clear here - I am not tossing out ALL Harmn research about what they have to say about speaker positioning - that is not the SPECIFIC white paper I am talking about at all. The only relevant one I am talking about is the one that will help me BUY a speaker - not the one that will help me make it sound better once I get it home - that's great and will help anyone no matter what speaker you buy to improve possibly the sound of the speaker. ELAC has apparently a very helpful program you can run for pretty cheap as well.

Hi-Fi Choice's goal is about rank ordering and slotting, and since that's your singular obsession with determining the validity of research, then it obviously appeals to you. What Harman tests for is a LOT more complex than that. Just because a company does the same type of research does not mean that the speakers will sound the same. I certainly would never mistake a JBL for a Paradigm model. And in my listenings, Energy speakers have some different characteristics from Paradigms as well. Ever since Toole setup the new testing facilities, Harman has made huge improvements to JBL's lineup, but they did not fundamentally deviate from the "JBL sound" either. If I accept your argument that the same research would result in the same sound, then shouldn't all of Harman's speakers and those Canadian speakers actually sound identical? They sure don't sound that way to me.

But Hi-fi choice is the only thing that helps someone who is looking to BUY a speaker - all I am saying is that if all Harman speakers are designed to fit the ideal and everyone elses is not as is the "implication" then they should do as well in secondary blind listening sessions as they do in house - and they don't always. I am talking about rank.

This is the entire point - the fact that within house the speakers don't sound the same means there is more to it than summing up mere frequency response even on and off axis. Speakers that measure almost exactly the same within 1db (not likely going to be detectable) or even far more variance in certain frequencies won't be detectable in themselves sound different. I am not supporting a speaker that has poor meadsurements or claiming as you would like to think that I am saying everyone go buy totally non flat speakers - what I am saying is that very flat speakers hardly gaurantee good sound - and that is simply in the listening to them - very easy to tell. The fact that the De Capo has some anomolies has hardly swayed people into thinking it's a dreadful speaker.

Like I said, nothing wrong with Audio Note running ads. Your defensiveness about this issue is puzzling given that I would assume that you would want word to get out about the company. And if they're doing well enough to justify paying for a full-page ad in an audio magazine, shouldn't that be a good thing?

I am not defensive I simply asked you for proof - Advertising and product literature are not things Peter Q believes in - an American Distrubutor might - I have no problems with them doing that. In effect that is what I am doing - except I don't get paid nor do I sell them. Word of mouth is still advertising.

Quite the contrary, it's VERY easy to level match using a narrowband test tone and SPL meter. Jot down the differential in the SPL, and you make that adjustment for all of your listenings. Not all that complicated, and you only have to do the measurement once at the beginning. But, if you don't believe in measurements, then that point is moot.

I believe in measurements that tell me something useful. Explain to me how you would level match the Audio Note J to a Paradigm Monitor 5? Then I get to play them both at 95decibals and I get to alternate ANY disc I choose - including pedal organ. SInce the monotor 5 will have hopeless bass and hopeless dynnamics and compression and an bright crappy tweeter there is nothing to match except a 1khz test tone at 95db.

And how do you define your own biases? You hate metal dome tweeters, you favor small audio companies, you hate things that are actively marketed, you generally favor European components, you hate speakers that made use of the NRC research in their development. How does your preference for Audio Note run contrary those biases? It's fine to state a preference, but don't pass your preference for Audio Note off as something that ran completely against the grain of what the sight biases would also point towards.

Umm my preferences came as a result of listening to an endless stream of this stuff. I did not wake up and say I hate all big name speakers and hate all metal tweeters - nor did I hate marketing. In fact it was Reference 3a and Audio Note - especially the latter and my experience with B&W that got me thinking about ALL the speakers over the years that I liked and disliked - and what do you know there was a pattern. I don't dislike B&W - but my opinion of them has shifted.

As far as Soundstage measurements go, for starters, Paradigm's own Studio and The Monitor 5 measures well, but so do a lot of others. All of them have measurable inaccuracies. The B&Ws, Revels, and Dynaudios also measure well, but all of them have very different areas where their inaccuracies occur. Their inaccuracies aren't huge, but they obviously make a difference in the sound. The frequency response charts give you an idea of where the inaccuracies occur, and you can make your own judgment as to which one would be better for you.

Well so does the Reference 3a MM De Capo. I am not against measurements because the measurement of the De Capo supports, partially, the reason why in the end I didn't buy the speaker - I didn't need the measurement to tell me where the innacuracies are though because I heard them - I also would not have used the term innacuracy - because that very thing is the reason the speaker is so well liked and why I liked it - but the K had a less dark presentation and because my listening genre is far more broad I wanted something more "expressive."

You seem to have an aversion to people who want to listen to speakers - skeptic hates the fact that people have the audacity to listen to Audio Note speakers. They must be giant corporations to be any good - and must have Toole designing them to be any good at all - and they must follow NRC guidelines - great be happy with what you bought and I will be as well. I have heard both and many others over the years - This is my opinion of the sound - some will disagree - even some of those people who did actually hear the speakers might disagree. And those people that did listen to them and bought something else fine.

[RGA]

Finally something we can agree on!

"Really I think it's pretty poor - the site was originally set-up to order kit parts. It is barely ever updated - and IMO hardly a good web-site "

The AN web site is so poorly designed that you can't even get down to the bottom of the menu on the left side of main page if you have a couple of extra tool bars on your screen because they didn't include a scroll bar.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/

The minimalist approach doesn't work for web sites any better than it works for amplifier or speaker designs but when you have limited knowledge, a religous fervor of how the world is or should be, and are pigheaded to boot, this is the kind of results you get.

It's a shame that his simple approach beats the competitors complex approach - maybe it's just complex for complexities sake. After all his simple one 8 inch woofer and 8 watt SETs can destroy B&W's N801 and the best Solid State you can come up with.

And when you hear one if your a big enough person to admit that this is true - it is you who will take the shackles of ignoance off.

[92135011]

Yeah, but their own website looks pretty slick and professional to me.

Donno bout you...but I sure dont like their website. That thing hasnt been updated for years. Their speakers dont even come in certain models now.
I also find their site a pain to navigate when you first go in. Some menus are on the side while others are on the page. If you want to know any information about their amps, it isnt on the amp page, cuz there is none. It's on level 1, 2, 3. But speakers sure have their own page. One more thing, thier products look better in person most times as there are not glamour shots. Actually the first time I saw the site, it looked so amateur that I directly linked it to the quality of the speaker for some reason. Bad thing to do, but some marketing survey found significant figures that there is a relationship between well designed websites and the likelihood that a customer will buy. So maybe its a natural thing

[newbsterv2]

It's a shame that his simple approach beats the competitors complex approach - maybe it's just complex for complexities sake. After all his simple one 8 inch woofer and 8 watt SETs can destroy B&W's N801 and the best Solid State you can come up with.

And when you hear one if your a big enough person to admit that this is true - it is you who will take the shackles of ignoance off.

hey RGA I think you're a helluva guy but come on man why don't u give up? Resonant boxes, flea powered SET's, silver wire, snake oil. For those of us who are engineers and have been to school and have seen complex waveforms on a scope and for those of us who enjoy unamplified "live" music we know when we're getting snowballed and bs'ed. I've heard some smooth tube/silk dome tweetered boxes that were a joy to listen to but far from sounding like a live performance. It's very simple. A system that has a wide frequency response, low harmonic distortion, and a wide dispersion among the entire frequency range is what engineers who know what they are doing are trying to accomplish. I mean take 5 different acoustic instruments such as a piano, violin, cello, clarinet, and sax and all are made of different materials that have different inherent physical properties and then listen to the clown who runs audio note and he says that his cabinets should vibrate because real instruments do. That's absolutely ridiculous. If you like the "sound" your system makes God bless you man but don't tell us that Audio Notes' speakers/amplifiers are the holy grail of audio cause they're not.

[Woochifer]

Let me be clear here - I am not tossing out ALL Harmn research about what they have to say about speaker positioning - that is not the SPECIFIC white paper I am talking about at all. The only relevant one I am talking about is the one that will help me BUY a speaker - not the one that will help me make it sound better once I get it home - that's great and will help anyone no matter what speaker you buy to improve possibly the sound of the speaker. ELAC has apparently a very helpful program you can run for pretty cheap as well.

FYI, the Harman room mode calculator is posted on their website for free. I actually used it when positioning my subwoofer.

I am not defensive I simply asked you for proof - Advertising and product literature are not things Peter Q believes in - an American Distrubutor might - I have no problems with them doing that. In effect that is what I am doing - except I don't get paid nor do I sell them. Word of mouth is still advertising.

Like I said, I'll look for it and post the info when I find it. It was some magazine that I thumbed through last month on the newsstand, so I'll have to retrace which magazine it was and see if I can locate a back issue.

I believe in measurements that tell me something useful. Explain to me how you would level match the Audio Note J to a Paradigm Monitor 5? Then I get to play them both at 95decibals and I get to alternate ANY disc I choose - including pedal organ. SInce the monotor 5 will have hopeless bass and hopeless dynnamics and compression and an bright crappy tweeter there is nothing to match except a 1khz test tone at 95db.

The subjective aspect that you describe has less to do with the SPL measurement than the overall efficiency of the speaker would. Since the Audio Note rates at a higher efficiency than the Monitor 5 and most other speakers, obviously that puts the Audio Note at an advantage, regardless of whatever other subjective findings you might have. My own listenings of the Monitor 5 were very favorable, especially considering that it sells for $525USD, and probably even less than that in Canada. Crappy tweeter, hopeless bass, and hopeless dynamics were certainly not how I would describe them subjectively, so I don't know how you're so certain that the Monitor 5 would be difficult to level match.

Just the fact that you're raising this kind of objection indicates to me that you've never used a SPL meter while comparing speakers. It may be science, but it's certainly not a difficult concept to grasp. Like I said, to control for the level you would use a narrow band test tone (one that eliminates the extreme lows but maintains a wide spectrum throughout the midrange and into the highs). Test DVDs like Avia and Video Essentials use this type of test tone for main and surround level matching, and a wider band test tone that includes the lower frequencies for the subwoofer. The reading represents the average SPL over the frequency range that most sound information is in. The last thing you want is to use a wideband test tone, since below about 300 Hz the room acoustic effects take over and you don't want the SPL reading to be driven by standing waves. Since by your claims, the Audio Note would go deeper into the low frequency range, then it has greater potential to develop either a severe null or peak in the lower range, which would create an erroneous SPL reading. The narrow band frequency test (which is obviously not the same as a 1 kHz test tone) simply means that you're minimizing a major source of bias to the greatest extent possible. Whatever other factors, if any, that you want to control for is up to you.

Well so does the Reference 3a MM De Capo. I am not against measurements because the measurement of the De Capo supports, partially, the reason why in the end I didn't buy the speaker - I didn't need the measurement to tell me where the innacuracies are though because I heard them - I also would not have used the term innacuracy - because that very thing is the reason the speaker is so well liked and why I liked it - but the K had a less dark presentation and because my listening genre is far more broad I wanted something more "expressive."

Same deal with the Magneplanars. Those speakers do not measure very well (I've read claims that their dipolar design prevents them from measuring well in an anecholic environment), but looking at the frequency response and seeing how the midrange dominates and the highs roll off, I can easily see why they have their appeal for specific genres.

You seem to have an aversion to people who want to listen to speakers - skeptic hates the fact that people have the audacity to listen to Audio Note speakers. They must be giant corporations to be any good - and must have Toole designing them to be any good at all - and they must follow NRC guidelines - great be happy with what you bought and I will be as well. I have heard both and many others over the years - This is my opinion of the sound - some will disagree - even some of those people who did actually hear the speakers might disagree. And those people that did listen to them and bought something else fine.

No, I don't have an aversion to listening. I listen to and enjoy my own speakers all the time. I just have an aversion to claims that sighted listenings alone are sufficient to discredit the validity of calibrated measurements and bias controlled listening tests. Listening has value because that's the ultimate function of audio equipment. But, at the same time, I'm not going sit here and claim that what I hear during sighted product demos invalidates all technical mesurements and that my conclusion is applicable to all situations just because I said so. There's the room acoustics to consider, the setup, and the source. For specific types of recordings, it can be very advantageous to have speakers with specific kinds of frequency deviations. EVERY speaker has deviations of some kind, so part of the auditioning process is discerning which inaccuracies work best with your listening habits.

And for umpteenth time, Toole is NOT a speaker designer.

And what about the NRC findings (they never set up any comprehensive set of guidelines, only findings that were found to be statistically valid) do you find problematic? Good off-axis response? Low distortion? Even frequency response through the midrange? Those points are really the main conclusions. Whatever else you want to ascribe to the research is nothing more than presumption. Just because a manufacturer voices their speakers with boosted highs and/or lows does not mean that the research dictated that. In fact, a while ago I read that researchers expected to find that people would prefer speakers with boosted highs or lows, but that turned out to be inconclusive and less important than the midrange accuracy, which was a consistent preference.

[RGA]

hey RGA I think you're a helluva guy but come on man why don't u give up? Resonant boxes, flea powered SET's, silver wire, snake oil. For those of us who are engineers and have been to school and have seen complex waveforms on a scope and for those of us who enjoy unamplified "live" music we know when we're getting snowballed and bs'ed. I've heard some smooth tube/silk dome tweetered boxes that were a joy to listen to but far from sounding like a live performance. It's very simple. A system that has a wide frequency response, low harmonic distortion, and a wide dispersion among the entire frequency range is what engineers who know what they are doing are trying to accomplish. I mean take 5 different acoustic instruments such as a piano, violin, cello, clarinet, and sax and all are made of different materials that have different inherent physical properties and then listen to the clown who runs audio note and he says that his cabinets should vibrate because real instruments do. That's absolutely ridiculous. If you like the "sound" your system makes God bless you man but don't tell us that Audio Notes' speakers/amplifiers are the holy grail of audio cause they're not.

In the strictest sense the cabinet vibrates or resopnates at the frequency Audio Note dictates - and not by accident or because the speaker wasn't damped enough. You also don't need a high damping factor amp if you folow the approach through the line. Audio Note has real engineers with rela degrees working for them - the founder was the chief designer of Sony Corporation - presumably a fellow that knows a bit about design - or he would never have attained the position in the first place. Martin Colloms(B.Sc. (Hons), C.Eng, M.I.E.E.)

William Ellis Grammar School London and University of Westminster [Regent Street Polytechnic.]

Graduated in l97l with a B.Sc. Hons in Electrical Engineering.

Awarded Chartership of the Institution of Electrical Engineers 1981.

MacRobert Award Finalist 2000 (with Neil Harris and Henry Azima), Royal Academy of Engineers

has measured their products from DAC to speakers

"Books ;

The speaker design textbook, first published in 1978 'High Performance Loudspeakers'[ISBN: 0471 97091 3 PPC; 0471 97089 1 Pr.] has been in print for over 20 years. The fully revised and expanded fifth edition [paper and hardback] was published by J Wiley for 1997. It has been translated into several foreign languages and the book received a most favourable review in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol 40, Number 1/2.

A second book entitled Computer Controlled Test and Instrumentation, was published in 1983 and provided an introduction to the IEEE 488 control bus. [ now out of print; ISBN 0-7273-0310-4]

Paul Messenger and engineer measures speakers for Hi-Fi Choice among other writings - gee the AN Speakers are so bad he decided to keep them - like his fellow writers form Stereophile and Enjoythemusic.com(who hear all of the cutting edge SOTA products) to be used as reference speakers and also to measure other equipment. More importantly to JUST listen to music on.

I have read the technical arguments about what I should look for in speakers from a design point of view BEFORE I listened to the Audio Notes. They should be a slim line design - they should not have a wide baffle they should have soft corners to reduce standing waves the tweeter and woofer are too far apart - they should not use foam nor should they use paper woofers - they should be very heavily damped and they should also be very large if they are going to produce bass - and if a small speaker DOES produce bass they will be very low sensitiviy.

Yet the engineers - the people who know - are the ones buying em up when they hear them, and musicians and recording studios, and designers from B&W, and average Joe's who when they see the speaker doing EVERYTHING wrong sounds miles better. And why is that? Because the speaker is doing the So-called impossible - Impossible for inferior designers obviously - so who has the best engineers and who simply has a lot of engineers - there is a difference.

When a relatively small speaker with one woofer can generate ~18hz while maintaning a mid band that is startlingly open and uncongested and doesn't sound compressed or nasal is not surprising that blind listening panels would award them top marks - A bit of colour perhaps but the trade-off is to gain Bass depth dynamics open vocals and overall light on its feet musicality.

"A system that has a wide frequency response, low harmonic distortion, and a wide dispersion among the entire frequency range is what engineers who know what they are doing are trying to accomplish."

This is what enginners want right? Is that what you're saying? Then you sir need to listen to Audio Note speakers. And when you do you can be like me and call all the other designers a bunch of talentless hacks or poor souls for letting bean counters dictate speaker design for maximizing profits via using dirt cheap parts(and then conning the masses that their cheaply made boxes and woiring and crossovers may be cheap junk but much much better than using quality drivers, wood, and parts) - Sorry that dog don't hunt.

[Woochifer]

This is what enginners want right? Is that what you're saying? Then you sir need to listen to Audio Note speakers. And when you do you can be like me and call all the other designers a bunch of talentless hacks or poor souls for letting bean counters dictate speaker design for maximizing profits via using dirt cheap parts(and then conning the masses that their cheaply made boxes and woiring and crossovers may be cheap junk but much much better than using quality drivers, wood, and parts) - Sorry that dog don't hunt.

In other words, Audio Note is God and all other speakers are crap just because you said so. Hi-Fi Choice likes them, so their word is gospel too. If only you could just see what kind of a caricature this self-aggrandizing run-at-the-mouth bull**** is turning you into.

[RGA]

Woochifer

Mate this is not an issue of loudness - Of course the AN's are more efficient - when you select the Monitor 5 or the N805 one turns the volume up.

Hi-fi Choice does level match as well - and in fact notes that an AN Dac if you didn't level match would sound considerably louder due to the higher output - so certain amplifiers you need to be careful about. But they noted that because they level match the advantage is not an issue.

With speakers the bass depth of the Audio Note is superior - if you're suggesting supressing the speakers bass response - then you are no longer listening to the speaker anymore because the entire design relies on the cabinet itself to vibrate in order to create the depth and openness - Do anything to interfere with that is simply wrong. One could merely use a sub and add bass to the K - but bass is not the only issue when moving up the line.

The soundbox as it were is a top to bottom design where everything plays a role in the sound - the bass is calcuted into the design with resonances raised to inaudible frequencies. I understand the methodology and exactly what you're talking about this way of matching. But I expect to get bass with my money - and IMO tough luck if the similar and more expensive competitors needs a subwoofer.

I bring a wide array of music on listening sessions - Audio Note plays them all well. You want heavy bass trance to light classical to vocal to jazz to Motly Crue - some speakers will be better suited to stricly amplified music perhaps - AN's strength is and always will be classical music.

But why we're discussing these issues is irrelevant - listen to them or don't listen to them - I could care less

They will meet the desires of Good off-axis response Low distortion and Even frequency response through the midrange. All three were discussed and measured in the August 2004 issue(Even though we're not in August yet??) of Hi-fi Choice. The E/LX was rated the best speaker in the $2500.00 British Pound range and the reviewer kept them - as they kept the original AN E back in 1992. Which isn't to say they found perfection - there was some complaint over the speaker being somewhat coloured but that trade-off was compensated for by a number of strengths to such a high level that they had no choice but to give it the best buy tag. The original E/D with a lesser cabinet, wiring and parts

"The most expensive model in the test group did at least help justify its price with a top rating in the listening tests{blind). Praised for providing loads of detail, subtlety and insight, this is a good all-rounder which draws its compromises very artfully, delivering an even overall tonal balance with excellent low bass weight and extension, yet also creating music with lively and invigorating dynamics." £1520
BUILD * * * *_
SOUND * * * * *
VALUE * * * *_

An upgraded level would sound significantly better as it did in my session with the J.

But why we're discussing these issues is irrelevant - listen to them or don't listen to them - I could care less. I would have let the post die 50 threads ago - but AN is attacked from people who have never heard them - for being supposedly wrong? And yet the people on this thread who HAVE heard the speakers don't. Interesting. I am not saying EVERYONE or ANYONE should BUY the freakin things - but to listen to them. Dig out any recordings good bad or indiferent LP or CD - listen to an all AN 8 watt sytem and the other guys mega watt mega heavy speaker system - most dealers should carry one of those of competitors "right" designs. To ask audio hobbyists to listen to music on a stereo system what was I thinking.

[gonefishin]

And when you hear one if your a big enough person to admit that this is true - it is you who will take the shackles of ignoance off.

RGA...I have heard some of the AudioNote speakers...a couple of the low cost ones and the high dollar silver voice coil speakers too. You know what. They do sound decent. Do they kill the competetion? no, they don't. But they are fun to listen to. They do make nice music. With the lower proced models actually being good bargins compared to many of the larger companies.


Wooch, if you get the chance to listen to them...do give them a chance...they really do deserve it. The best? no. But they are above average. As far as having a discussion about other speakers, speaker design or construction...amplifier design, use or construction or room effects with RGA, this may be futile. Unless it's written down on the AN website...I doubt you'll get much else. I think we may be lucky that he isn't using the $500.00 wooden volume knob that's treated with c37 lacquer
I'd still like an answer on how in the world he could suggest that all speakers at a show would have equal opportunity to perform well in rooms which were the same. This is within this thread while discussing comparing (relatively) higher end"ish" speakers. So the comment shouldn't have been made in oversight.

have a good weekend all>>>>>

[RGA]

In other words, Audio Note is God and all other speakers are crap just because you said so. Hi-Fi Choice likes them, so their word is gospel too. If only you could just see what kind of a caricature this self-aggrandizing run-at-the-mouth bull**** is turning you into.

Actually I had a good run of not getting hotheaded and stating it earlier - I had written it down several times and deleted such strong sentiment. Unfortunately, I agree with my dealer(granted: obviously could have alterior motives - but I know why that's not the case) that after hearing Audio Note it is very tough not to be a snob about them.

I know as well as anyone that making such strong opinions will be resented and / or disbelieved because I have been on the other side of the fence reading the claims for nOhr among others. And they can't live up to the hype I've given to them - so I am probably actually hurting Audio Note by presenting strong opinions about them and also producing reviews - something I myself don't rely on nor did I when buying them. But I figured some are heavy into reviews to even give them a try.

But presumably every person buying speakers felt it was the best speaker they heard for the money and they would have a couple of runner ups etc. So if we can let this thread eventually die before it hits 200 replies - I will try to lessen mention of Audio Note if others will as well.

[RGA]

Skeptic - You were wondering where some of the high cost has gone

The cabinets are made by a company you are probably familiar with - knowing fine Piano construction - Bosendorfer.

This may mean absolutely zilch to you but it might help explain why there is added cost to these cabinets that perhaps go beyond Joe's cabinet making emporium.

Someone brought up an interesting point: "Sound like that we should pay by the amount and value of the oil paint that Van Gogh used on his painting! By this standard of $$$ vs. 8" driver used, we should pay no more than $5 for a Van Gogh painting! Or maybe all the piano should cost the same, because all of them have the same number of keys."

If you're ever out in Manhatten and if you can afford what must be parking fees that would rival AN speakers - give them a go againt some well known competitors - the one thing if nothing else is they won't sound like you're average two way speaker.