Subwoofers

[the hand of boredom]

Blackraven, I'm sure you've narrowed your search to a couple options. Since people love choice I'll throw another sub into the mix for you.

Rythmik Audio http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html. Has servo, and everything about the sub is fully spec'd from the driver to the cabinet, test reports are published on the web site.

The one 'downer' is that they operate through mail-order only, but they do offer 30-day trial and will fully refund your purchase if the sub doesn't fit your bill.

I ordered an F12SE, with the PEQ amp; the thing is beautiful. I've had it now for almost a year. It was very easy to integrate with controls for xo, phase, slope, level, and the PEQ (1 selectable band, width, and cut). I have mine crossed in very low at about 39Hz, and it's not troubled at all.

To top it off, Brian Ding, the owner/engineer/designer, answered all my call and questions before and after purchase.

FFT.

THOB

[audio amateur]

I've suggested Rythmik before and I'm glad someone else brought it up. The customer testimonials are quite convincing too.
ps: take the bracket off at the end of the link otherwise it won't work

[audio amateur]

For 1 grand I wouldn't look further:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/D15SE.html

But you can also have a look at the smaller version

[blackraven]

Looks like a very nice sub, I'll have to check it out. My problem is that I am unwilling to buy something without hearing it first. I might miss out on some good equipment but I really don't want the hassle of sending it back if I don't like it. Ive been there before and have gotten burned.

[blackraven]

I lsitened to the Velodyne Digital Drive 12 sub today at a high end Home Theater Store. Its well built and has great sound but it was set up for HT use and they would not set it up in 2ch. so the cross over was set too high at 80hz. It was a little boomy because its positioning was poor (tucked away in a corner) and it was not EQ'd. The salesman admitted that it was not set up properly and that by next week they may have it set properly.

It clearly was not as musical as the REL subs that I listened too. Hopefully in 1 week I'll be able to listen to the Martin Logan Grotto i. I may eventually decide to save money and buy the ML Abyss which can be found on closeout for $500.

By the way. I got to listen to the Thiel 3.6's, 1.6's and their $2kpr bookshlelf's in a 2ch set up through an all Bryston set up. All 3 were awesome although I would not pay $2k for the bookshelfs. The 1.6's were awesome and sounded like a much bigger speaker. Very clean, clear sound with good sound stage, transparency and detail. Bass was crisp, tight and fairly deep. I would have no problem recommending them. They sounded better than most speakers in its price range.

TheThiel 3.6's were off the charts but I would not pay $14K for them. They were one of the best speakers I have ever heard, but the Salk Veracity HTR-3's starting at $8k and up were better sounding and are a better deal. Atomic Adam, if you read this you should take a look at the Thiel 1.6's over the Salk Song Towers.

[audio amateur]

It looks like they are readily available for 600$. At that price you could get two and have full stereo separation as a 2+2 setup. But then you won't be saving much money...

[blackraven]

What do you guys think about this Rythmik sub for musicality and speed. It's at a great price.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

[audio amateur]

Go for it! There's one thing I will warn you about, and that's the low sensitivity of the power-on feature. I own a sub amp from them and it has this problem, so you might find yourself having to turn it on/off everytime you use it. Unless you decide to leave it on all the time... Of course it may be different on that amp (which is servo unlike mine) or they may have fixed it since.

[the hand of boredom]

I'm very happy with mine... finish is gorgeous, very well put together. Unlike AA, I don't have a problem with the auto on/off function. Had mine almost a year now and it's had not one blip.

Sound wise, no complaints from me. I'm registering 20hz at 100db (I'm in an apt, so it's only on for a few seconds that test tone; this is with the gain on the sub at half). I know this means nowt in a real application, but showing that there's enough oomph to go around.

For the price, it's really worth a shot, and I'm sure you'll have a smile on your face once setup correctly in your system.

FWIW, Brian has been great to deal with - he's answered every single question I've put to him (sometimes explained in technical lingo beyond my knowledge). He answered as many questions before the sale and after.

[Feanor]

I'm very happy with mine... finish is gorgeous, very well put together. Unlike AA, I don't have a problem with the auto on/off function. Had mine almost a year now and it's had not one blip.

Sound wise, no complaints from me. I'm registering 20hz at 100db (I'm in an apt, so it's only on for a few seconds that test tone; this is with the gain on the sub at half). I know this means nowt in a real application, but showing that there's enough oomph to go around.

For the price, it's really worth a shot, and I'm sure you'll have a smile on your face once setup correctly in your system.

...

Hi, HOB, how goes, man? You in Winnipeg this days? How's the weather?

The Rythmiks has had a strong appeal for me since I first heard of them a couple of years ago. On the face of it, servo seems like a good idea for subs. Good to hear a positive report.

I'm glad to see they now sell complete speakers, no longer just the components. If my either PSB Subsonic 5 or 6 were to give it up, my top consideration would go to th Rythmik.

[blackraven]

Thanks guys, I'm leaning to the Rythmik F12se but its a little large and I have to clear it with the wife otherwise it will be the Martin Logan Abyss or Grotto i. I like all three because of the Aluminum drives which tend to be faster and more musical. They should match better with the Maggies. The truth of the matter is that with my 2ch set up, the sub won't have to do too much except fill in the sound below 40hz.

[the hand of boredom]

Blackraven, I'm in the same situation where the Auditors can play well into the upper 40s (granted, some of that pressure is probably from the small-room reinforcement). I have the F12SE crossed at about 39Hz and it provides just the right amount of bottom.

At the loudest levels I play at, I can definitely tell the sub is going (versus turning the sub off and listening at the same level) and the cone has minimal excursion.

THOB

[the hand of boredom]

Hi, HOB, how goes, man? You in Winnipeg this days? How's the weather?

The Rythmiks has had a strong appeal for me since I first heard of them a couple of years ago. On the face of it, servo seems like a good idea for subs. Good to hear a positive report.

I'm glad to see they now sell complete speakers, no longer just the components. If my either PSB Subsonic 5 or 6 were to give it up, my top consideration would go to th Rythmik.

Feanor, good to hear from you!

Just got around to updating the profile, still in Toronto, start looking for a house soon (finally, A DEDICATED ROOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

The Rythmik is great, as will be many other subwoofers out there. Always liked the piano finish.

What about selling the PSB to generate some funds for the upgrade?

[Feanor]

...
The Rythmik is great, as will be many other subwoofers out there. Always liked the piano finish.

What about selling the PSB to generate some funds for the upgrade?

Tain't gowna happen soon. I'm retiring in a month and a half, meanwhile my daughter is still home and will be depandent for a few more months.

The sub isn't that important with the Maggies given the type of music I listen to. The Maggies are remarkably flat down almost to 40 Hz, so the sub only have to play deep pipe organ and the odd synthesizer note that occassionally turns up in avant garde classical.

[the hand of boredom]

Freeeeeeeeedooooooooooooooooomm!

I can't wait to retire, too bad for me that's another 15 years.

[JoeE SP9]

Tain't gowna happen soon. I'm retiring in a month and a half, meanwhile my daughter is still home and will be depandent for a few more months.

The sub isn't that important with the Maggies given the type of music I listen to. The Maggies are remarkably flat down almost to 40 Hz, so the sub only have to play deep pipe organ and the odd synthesizer note that occassionally turns up in avant garde classical.

Welcome to the "I'll get up when I want club". I joined last September.

[Feanor]

Welcome to the "I'll get up when I want club". I joined last September.

Thank you, Joe. I hope you're enjoying your retirement as much as I intend to enjoy mine.

[Feanor]

Freeeeeeeeedooooooooooooooooomm!

I can't wait to retire, too bad for me that's another 15 years.

Longer than that surely, HOB!?!

[the hand of boredom]

Nah, Bill, I've got the plan and I'll do what it takes to have the plan manifest itself.

2025 I will not have to wake up in the morning and not have to go to work.

[paulspencer]

Yeah, parallel, here's a set up link in case you didn't find it. Also notice that REL says "corner placement is best because corner placement produces the MOST LINEAR BASS response". So does SVS. This is opposite to what about 90% of the members here tell posters. I personally trust REL & SVS, I think they should know.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/manuals/REL-SET-UP.doc

That's a generic suggestion that will work in some situations but not in others. Subwoofer placement and integration is a lot more complicated than most are willing to entertain, so they have to give a "one size fits all" answer. It's not that hard to measure and find out for yourself in your room, and it's not even expensive. Otherwise it's like playing pin the tail on the donkey blindfolded.

Here's my suggestion for getting the best result for the least expense. Start with a Rythmik sub - they are killer value, you can spend a LOT more while matching the SQ at best, and often be a step behind. With the money you save, buy a few things that will allow you to get the most of them. A measurement mic and mic pre are very cheap. Now measure them with REW which is a free download tool for measuring their in-room response. Then find out for yourself if corner placement is best in your room. You will see charts that look nothing like the nice neat anechoic plots you are used to. The bass won't be +/- 3db .... perhaps more like 30! I'm not kidding. You can buy a velodyne EQ unit, but you can actually get a pro unit for half the cost and it's more powerful. I use Behringer Ultracurve.

The result? The subs do their job and get out of the way. I cross at 80 Hz which is something many subs can't do without adding their own sound to the bass. You can't tell the subs are on unless you are within 1ft from the cone. You can stand right in front of it and not localise any sounds relative to the subs.

In terms of high level and low level inputs, I'd say it's generally preferable to use low level. Sometimes the gain isn't right. I hosted an audio event and we had a demo of a sub where there wasnt' enough preamp gain to drive it. We used high level inputs to get around the problem. Using the high level outputs to the main speakers gives them a passive high pass which isn't ideal. I think REL is trying to find a simple soluation to suit many different systems, but it's certainly not ideal. It amounts to a passive biamping setup, vs active biamping. Done right, a low level input is a better choice. Perhaps REL consider that using low level inputs, there are more chances to stuff it up. Done their way, the plate amp has more control over the crossover point. If you know what you are doing, and use measurements then you will get the same result at least, if not a little better.

If you get the bass right, and your equipment allows it, I see no reason to use a different sub integration for music and home theatre. But this does take a bit more effort and know how than most would prefer. Have a look at some discussions on REW at the home theatre shack.