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  1. #1
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    Subwoofer Matching

    Last October my Mission 70ASA sub blew. The amp went and the sub would continuously make a humming noise as long as it was plugged in. They said it wasn't worth fixing and so I didn't.

    Until now I've been routing the LFE through my Mission 701 speakers and it's been more than adequate for the size of the room my system is in, but lately I want a little more punch so I'm going to buy a new sub.

    Here's the thing.... I'm not sure if I should buy another Mission sub or look at other brands. I might upgrade my entire speaker system in a few years time and I want a sub that's dynamic enough to be matched with a different brand of speakers. I've heard that you can get away with a sub that's a different make from the rest of your speakers... and then I've heard others say they should ALL be identical.

    So is there a brand in the $400 - $600 range that you would recommend? Something that would sound good with my mission 700 series surround setup but would ALSO sound good with future upgrades such as a set of B&Ws?

    Something 8" - 10" would be good. Anything more is really is absolute overkill (smallish room)

    How's Velodyne? Polk? Those are the two I've looked at so far. The Velodyne sounded really strong and smooth...
    Last edited by thxpaul; 08-25-2008 at 06:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Your sub does not need to match the rest of your speakers. (unless you mean the color and wood grain)
    Will this be used in HT or just for music?
    For the money, you'd have a hard time beating any of these. http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ctGroup_ID=536
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Your sub does not need to match the rest of your speakers. (unless you mean the color and wood grain)
    Will this be used in HT or just for music?
    For the money, you'd have a hard time beating any of these. http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ctGroup_ID=536
    I'd use it for both music and HT duties. Not too sure how well I'd fare building my own from a kit however . Truthfully I think I'd be better off just buying one, even if it cost me a little more. I'd spend more than $600 too if the product was right. But no more than $1000 absolutely.

    I was looking at the Velodyne miniVee and it seems perfect for my wants. It's non-obtrusive which is good because the room isn't too huge, and the reviews suggest that it performs really well.... but I'll still need to shop around.

  4. #4
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    Velodyne is a good company, but for a sub I'd stay away from Polk (their main speakers are very good though).

    As far as staying with another Mission sub, I wouldn't suggest it partly because the last one blew out which suggests you need a more powerful one and just when I Googled the sub the first link that came up was tech support website. Sounds like more problems to me.

    Another company to check out is SVS though. There's two product lines both below the $1k mark. A PB12-NSD would easily blow your old sub out of the water for quality, depth, and power and it's only $599. http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
    There's a lot of reviews around for our subs and most would agree you can't do much better (if any) for the money.

    Alex
    SVS Tech Support

  5. #5
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    Your main 5 or 7 speakers should be from the same brand and the same model series with the same exact tweeters. The sub can be from any brand.

    Unless you absolutely have no extra room then I would stay away from the "mini cube" type subs. They are very cute and are fun to impress friends with how much bass come out of those little boxes. However, they are very expensive for the performance you get. A number of tricks have to be performed to get reasonable bass out of those tiny enclosures. This includes very long throw drivers, huge magnets and very high wattage amps. This is all expensive and results in reasonable but not great performance.

    For the $600-$700 or more for the Velodyne Mini V, you can get far better performance for far less money if you are willing to put up with a larger enclosure.

    HSU makes some excellent subs for great prices (direct to buyer). The STF-1 is an 8" sub that is failry narrow and fits well it tight places. I highly recommend you consider the slightly wider 10" VTF-1 that runs from $450-$550 depending on finish. It is an excellent performer for both movies and music and far out performs the little mini subs.

    http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html

    An alternative choice would be the !0" LFM-1 Compact from Outlaw Audio for $399, another direct to buyer company. It comes in a black satin finish with a gloss black inlaid plexiglass top that is beautiful. I own the larger LFM-1 Plus and my wife thinks it's gorgeous. The performance is also excellent.

    http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmcompact.html

    SVS offers the PB10-NSD which is another excellent 10" model direct from the source.

    http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

    HSU, Outlaw and SVS make larger enclosures with 12" drivers that have even lower bass extension. However, it looks like the 10" models above would be perfect for your requirements.

    For local dealers the Velodyne is a very good choice but stay with one of their conventional subs for the best performance.

    RR6

  6. #6
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    Still Learnin' jvc's Avatar
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    I agree with SVS.
    One of the best there is..........
    Good luck!

  7. #7
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    Thanks for all the replies people. Those look like some great options. Only thing is that I'd probably get raped on the shipping costs. 60lbs to ship all the way to Canada?! Yikes!

    Also one quick question. What classifies as a "true subwoofer" what isn't true? What's "long throw" ? Does this refer to the physical movement of the woofer?

    Thanks for helping a not-so-well-read guy out! Apologies if these are silly questions.

  8. #8
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    The Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Compact (38lbs) weighs about 45lbs shipped, I'm guessing. Why not call them and see what they say on shipping costs to Canada. All of these companies are great over the phone. Otherwise, Energy and Axiom Audio (direct only) are both Canadian and make good subs. Or look at Velodyne or Martin Logan for some decent subs in the $600 range.

    "True" subwoofer is a marketing word and means zero. Some companies like Sunfire use the word "true" in their model designation. This is actually a rather humorous misnomer. They are trying to convince potential customers that this tiny little cube shaped mini sub really is a subwoofer. They now make some very decent performing subs (at a relatively premium price) but they are not equal in bass extension or low distortion to a well designed conventional sub in a bigger box.

    On the other hand, HSU list their subs on their website under a drop down menu that says "True Subwoofers." I think it is just their confirmation that most of their subs are made in the more traditional design.

    I think the most important thing to remember is that the laws of physics still apply. The best way to reproduce the lowest bass extention with the lowest distortion is still with reletively large enclosures and quality drivers and amps.

    Long throw is just another term for long excursion which refers to the back and forth movement of the cone.

    RR6

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Also one quick question. What classifies as a "true subwoofer" what isn't true? What's "long throw" ? Does this refer to the physical movement of the woofer?
    There is no universal definition for a "true" subwoofer. IMO, a true subwoofer will extend below ~30 Hz and is not used for reproducing any audibly directional lower midrange sounds (which eliminates the Bose Acoustimass modules and a lot of the smaller sub/sat systems). You can hook a "true" subwoofer up to a small sub/sat system and/or use a high crossover frequency of 120 Hz or above. But, then you're no longer using the subwoofer as a "true" subwoofer because that you've now tasked that sub with reproducing lower midrange frequencies.

    "Long throw" is another one of those cliched overused terms with no universally agreed upon definition. It indeed refers to the physical movement of the driver. Every driver has a maximum excursion, which helps to determine the amount of air that the driver can move. Larger drivers don't need as much excursion to move the same amount of air as a smaller driver.

    If you got a smaller room, then you might want to look into a sealed sub rather than a ported model. Small rooms will reinforce the bass beginning at a higher frequency than with larger rooms. A ported sub that can go deep into the low bass frequencies can sound unbearable in a small room because the bass frequencies get amplified into a booming din.

    A sealed sub will have a more gradual dropoff in the lower bass, which works better with the room boundary reinforcement. You don't get as much maximum output with a sealed sub, but in a small room, you don't need it.

    Some of the sealed subs out there around your price range include the B&W ASW610, the Rocket UFW-12 (mail order only), the Martin Logan Dynamo, and the Atlantic Technology 102SB. And there's also the Dayton DIY kits, which are very well regarded on this board.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    "True" subwoofer is a marketing word and means zero. Some companies like Sunfire use the word "true" in their model designation. This is actually a rather humorous misnomer. They are trying to convince potential customers that this tiny little cube shaped mini sub really is a subwoofer. They now make some very decent performing subs (at a relatively premium price) but they are not equal in bass extension or low distortion to a well designed conventional sub in a bigger box.
    Actually, the Sunfire subs have a frequency response that dips down to 16 Hz thru 22 Hz (depending on the model), so I don't know what criteria you're using for a "true" subwoofer. Is your definition of a subwoofer just about the looks and/or design approach, or about the actual performance? For the original poster, all the Sunfire subs (except for the Junior) are overkill.

    The Sunfires use a different design approach by pairing very powerful amps with small drivers, and relying on very long driver excursion to move the amount of air needed to reproduce those low frequencies. Granted, this approach increases the distortion levels. But, their bass extension alone puts them into the "true" subwoofer range, since they can cover the entire frequency output for nearly all music and home theater LFE sources.
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  10. #10
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    Sorry, Woochifer, I guess I didn't make my point clear enough. I think putting the word true and subwoofer together is arbitrary, redundant and just plain silly.

    I think when Mr. Carver designed his mini/macro cube subs he anticipated that customers would judge his product with lots of scepticism. How could a little cube enclosure produce very low bass and be considered a legitimate subwoofer? Adding the word "true" was done to try and add some credence to its performance. Other brands like HSU I'm guessing added the word "true" to their website as a very subtle jab that their conventional subs were if fact genuine subs with no tricks.

    I mentioned the tricks above. When the Sunfires first came out they were plagued with smearing and loss of clarity and high distortion (which is due to the compromises in the design of the mini cube subs). They have improved a lot since then. However, they still do not match the performance of a well design quality conventional sub at any where near the same price. You mentioned that the Sunfires dip down to 22Hz or lower. My question would be at what trade-off. The answer is output and distortion.

    Let me give an example of a conventionally designed sub and a mini cube type sub from the same brand. SVS makes a mini/compact sub, model SB12-Plus, $700, that is not quite as small as the Sunfire but I think it will suffice for my comparison. They also make the model PB12-NSD, $600.

    The SB12-Plus is 15x14x14 = 2940 cu in and 40 lbs.
    The PB12-NSD is 18x21x25 = 9450 cu in and 74 lbs.

    These subs both have a 12" driver and you can see the sub enclosure on the PB12-NSD is over 3 times the volume of the SB12-Plus.

    Here are the distortion figures from both subs under identical circumstances from the Finnish subwoofer tests by Ilkka Rissanen at the Home Theater Shack.

    90dB @ 30Hz - SB12-Plus, 7% - PB12-NSD, 1.5%
    90dB @ 20Hz - SB12-Plus, 5.5% - PB12-NSD, 1.5%

    95dB @ 30Hz - SB12-Plus, 11% - PB12-NSD, 2%
    95dB @ 20Hz - SB12-Plus, 11% - PB12-NSD, 2%

    100dB @30Hz - SB12Plus, 19% - PB12-NSD, 3.5%
    100dB @20Hz - SB12Plus, 19% - PB12-NSD, 2.5%

    Note that the test on the PB12-NSD went up to 110dB with only 4% distortion @ 20Hz! The conventional sub had lower distortion at 110dB's than the small sub at 90dB's!

    You hinted about this above when you stated: "Granted, this approach increases the distortion levels." I don't care how low the bass extension goes if it is at high levels of distortion.

    Sorry, I'm out of time. I'll add to this post later.

    RR6

  11. #11
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    There are too many variables, so I think it is impossible to give a general definition of a sub. For music, a sub that has an extension down to 27-32Hz or so at -3dB's is usually fine (except for pipe organ music). For HT, down to 15-25Hz, -3dB's would be desirable. This of course presumes quality parts and enclosures along with low distortion and adequate output. In general, larger sub drivers go lower. Although older ported designs were far from perfect, new ported subs are generally equal to the sealed models. There are superb subs in both sealed and ported designs.

    For thxpaul: Forget the word "true" and long throw in regards to subs. They are not important for you. Know that the mini cube subs are very expensive for their performance. The little Sunfire Junior runs about $1000. The Velodyne Mini Vee's are about $700 and up. Neither of them IMO can match the Oultaw LFM-1 Compact in terms of performance at $400 (or any of the other conventional subs mentioned above). Note that the Oultaw is not like it looks at the website. It is tall, deep and rather narrow so it fits well in the room.

    For those who really are space challenged then the mini sub can be the answer.

    RR6

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