Speaker suggestion wanted

[3db]

I heard the name classe over 25 years ago while still a univeristy pup. The big rage back then was that they are Canadian and everyone was talking about their 25x2 class A amplifier, costing back then a hefty 5 Gs. My memory maybe distorting the price a lil. *chuckles* I've never heard them personally but read many good things about them. Like Topspeed says, there is no such thing as an ideal Amplifier that appeals to everyone. Its all just so subjective.

Right now I'm swooining over SymAudio products, those sexy bastards but as always, its way out of my price league .

[theaudiohobby]

Just a guess on my part, but I think RGA's reference to Classe wasn't that it's a big brand in Europe, just bigger there than it is in North America. That's kind of how I read it.

Yes I meant that sometimes being an IMPORT gives it an added allure. YBA here for example had a very long big high end run that is waning a fair bit. It is French and was one of the premiere high end SS companies. It "seems" that they have become less present due to a few weak efforts like their CD re-play whioch was always seemingly getting dumped on and eventually the prices here probably caught up with them.

To clarify further, Classe is an unknown quantity in the Europe, in fact both Simaudio and Classe have little profile in Europe with very little allure and Classe not even marketed actively until very recently ago and the same applies to Simaudio, Companies like YBA (a local brand) has much greater profile in Europe than Classe, Bryston and Krell have a good following in Europe but Simaudio and Classe currently do not and have never had a big following in Europe.

[3db]

To clarify further, Classe is an unknown quantity in the Europe, in fact both Simaudio and Classe have little profile in Europe with very little allure and Classe not even marketed actively until very recently ago and the same applies to Simaudio, Companies like YBA (a local brand) has much greater profile in Europe than Classe, Bryston and Krell have a good following in Europe but Simaudio and Classe currently do not and have never had a big following in Europe.

Its Canada's lil secret then. *S*

[topspeed]

Topspeed I have never heard anyone consider the Odysseys as being bright,infact that is totally ludicris.I heard about you and your phony Odyssey sucks rants over on the Audio Circle from members over there,Klaus,and the guy you done the audition with,come on man get real and start keeping it real,Odyssey is the perfect example of warm well balanced solid state gear,so whoever was listening to this moron disregard his rediculous coments,1500+ posts and still blowing hot air.

Interesting...

First, I'm not a member of audiocircle. I don't even know what that is, but I'll presume it's a BB. Apparently, there is a member at that site that, God forbid, also disagrees with Klaus' minions. Second, instead of blowing smoke out of your a$$, why not read my review on this site and see if it is unbalanced (unlike you). The comparison was blind and level matched, which is a heckuva lot more than 99% of people are willing to take the time to do.

If you have a hard-on for Odyssey, knock yourself out. However, your attack merely demerits any opinion you may have.

Then again, your spelling already did that...

[drseid]

Interesting...

First, I'm not a member of audiocircle. I don't even know what that is, but I'll presume it's a BB. Apparently, there is a member at that site that, God forbid, also disagrees with Klaus' minions. Second, instead of blowing smoke out of your a$$, why not read my review on this site and see if it is unbalanced (unlike you). The comparison was blind and level matched, which is a heckuva lot more than 99% of people are willing to take the time to do.

If you have a hard-on for Odyssey, knock yourself out. However, your attack merely demerits any opinion you may have.

Then again, your spelling already did that...

I think T Bomb has you confused with someone else at the audiocircle.com discussion board Top. If he had read your 1764 posts over here, I don't think he would feel you had some sort of anti-Odyssey agenda.

I agree that peoples' tastes play a large roll in what we perceive as "better." I am just about to receive a new Stratos+ amp in a day or two to see how it meshes with my speakers (I don't like tubes, so they were out) -- so I will know soon if at least on my Tyler speakers the Odyssey works... But I just ditched an Aragon 3002 that I just did not feel worked in the system that cost twice as much (retail). I will give my honest opinion on Odyssey after I have had a few weeks to see how things turn out.

I already know what *does* work with my speakers (and my preferences)... CODA (and Legacy Audio Amps made by CODA). Unfortunately they cost a bundle (and I have already blown one Legacy amp), so I am hoping I will be pleasantly surprised at the Stratos' performance. We shall see, or I see a very expensive amp purchase in my not-so-distant future... ;-)

---Dave

[kexodusc]

Topspeed I have never heard anyone consider the Odysseys as being bright,infact that is totally ludicris.I heard about you and your phony Odyssey sucks rants over on the Audio Circle from members over there,Klaus,and the guy you done the audition with,come on man get real and start keeping it real,Odyssey is the perfect example of warm well balanced solid state gear,so whoever was listening to this moron disregard his rediculous coments,1500+ posts and still blowing hot air.

Yeah TS, keep it real man, keep it real real.
For real.

[46minaudio]

Topspeed I have never heard anyone consider the Odysseys as being bright,infact that is totally ludicris.I heard about you and your phony Odyssey sucks rants over on the Audio Circle from members over there,Klaus,and the guy you done the audition with,come on man get real and start keeping it real,Odyssey is the perfect example of warm well balanced solid state gear,so whoever was listening to this moron disregard his rediculous coments,1500+ posts and still blowing hot air.

T Bomb Lets hope Klaus doesnt ask you and your fellow ("cult members") Odyssey owners to drink the Kool Aid.

[topspeed]

Dave,

I don't know how you blew the Legacy amp (are Tyler's hard to drive?), but you'd have to be blasting the shingles off your roof to blow the Stratos. The thing is built like a tank. You've got great equipment and no one wants to spend more than they have to. I hope the amp works out in your rig.

Kex,
ROTFLMAO ! Yo, I'm down wit dat!

46min,
You never know, God works in mysterious ways...

[drseid]

Dave,

I don't know how you blew the Legacy amp (are Tyler's hard to drive?), but you'd have to be blasting the shingles off your roof to blow the Stratos. The thing is built like a tank. You've got great equipment and no one wants to spend more than they have to. I hope the amp works out in your rig.

I actually bought that one used, and it took me all of 26 minutes to blow it (and no, at 93db sensitivity, the Tylers should not be *that* hard to drive even if they *are* monsters that probably do need a bit of current for their low-end abilities). My guess is the Legacy amp was already defective when I received it, and I got the bad end of the deal. I *will* say that the 26 minutes it worked were easily the best my speakers have sounded...

---Dave

[Woochifer]

Topspeed I've seen a lot of your post that has nothing to do with Odyssey, and you still blow smoke out of your a$$ on a consistent basis,so what about my spelling and as far as my opinion goes who are you? You dont have a clue, about 95% of your posts show it.So start contributing something of substance to this forum instead of all these untrue bogus claims.

Just the posts you've made on this thread is pretty self-evident as to who has a clue and who doesn't. topspeed is one of the more level-headed and knowledgeable regulars on this board, and consistently tells people not to go by his word but to try things out for themselves. If someone else hears things differently than he does, he's fine with it.

If "95%" of his posts are clueless in your view (and since I doubt that you've read all of his posts, you're already on shaky evidentiary ground with this kind of grossly exaggerated statement), then why don't you make some factual counterpoints that demonstrate why? When you call someone else out for "untrue bogus claims," you'd better have actual irrefutable facts in your corner (not just "he said, he said" subjective opinions). Otherwise, you've just proven topspeed's point about blowing smoke.

[topspeed]

Huh, I just knew I should have listened to that little voice telling to stop after that 5th martini at lunch. Weren't there some posts here by Tbomb or am I experiencing another alcohol induced stupor?

Anywho, thanks for the kind words Wooch (I'll pay you later ).

Tbomb,
I usually never point out spelling or grammatical errors simply because I have no idea who speaks english as their mother tongue on a public forum. Therefore, I'll let it slide. However, for someone who shills for Klaus so much, I am a bit perplexed by your lack of knowledge of the company you claim I hate. From your orginal post in this thread:

they are built off of the German high end brand Symphony

Actually, it's the Symphonic Line, not Symphony.

I own their Kharago amp and Estiban preamp

Really? Why not take a look at the faceplate every once in a while as it's a Khartago and Estesian preamp. But you already knew that being an owner and all...

Hmmm...who's making the bogus claims?

[Florian]

Just out of interest, can someone update me on the current situation? I so do not want to read 3 pages. Did he follow some advice or is he arguing about the advice that was given to him?

-Flo

[topspeed]

Just out of interest, can someone update me on the current situation? I so do not want to read 3 pages. Did he follow some advice or is he arguing about the advice that was given to him?

-Flo

The OP?

Shoot, he left weeks ago! No one left here but us morons !

[Florian]

HEHE, i have had that quite a few times too

[T BOMB25]

Anyone can mispell words,your so critical on gear,what do you own Topspeed? and please we dont need all these coatale rider Topspeed is a grown man at least im assuming he is anyway he can defend himself,I dont think he needs any of you guys help.And if im wrong about you I will freely admit it,no problem.

[Florian]

Topspeed has this equipment. You can read it in his profile.

Equipment List:
Denon AVR 3803, PS Audio HCA2, Denon DVD 2910, Sony DVPC600D, Denon DR-M30HX, JVC S-VHS, JVC 52G786, Hitachi 32UX01S, B&W CDM 7NT's, CNT, 1NT's, Definitive Technology PF12TL, Marantz 2230, Von Schweikert VR1's, Cambridge Audio Azure 540a & 54

[RGA]

Topspeed

I can;t speak to any other Oddyssy amp the ones in my audition were the Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks and the preamps for audition were the Audio Experience symphonies Modified, Sonic Frontiers Line 1, SonoSilence One.

The speakers we used were the Gersman Acoustics X1 with Sub 1 and the Audio Note AN K/Spe. 3 of the 5 listeners felt the K was super extended in the treble and leaned bright certainly more extended and "brighter" than the Gershmans. The other speaker auditioned was the Ellis 1801


I also have no idea of the price of any of the units on the day. The other power amps in the shootout were:

Sonic Impact T-Amp Modified
Musical Fidelity A3cr Dual Mono
SimAudio Celeste W-4070

PS Audio HCA-2 (Did not play) (The fellow who brought this amp much preferred the Odyssy for his Elis loudspeakers and felt it was not worth playing)

Odyssey Stratos Stereo (Did not play)
Radii MSKT-88 Monoblocks

Integrated:
Soundstage Integrated

Digital Sources
Sony DVP-NC555ES Modded
Lite DAC60 Modded
Njoe Tjoeb
Akai Reference Master

Phono Preamps
Holfi Ellipse
Channel Islands Audio VPP-1 and VAC-1 Power Supply

Turntables
Roksan Radius 5 with Ortofon Contrapunkt A
Project Debut II with Shure M97eX

It was a fun time and not really super intensive or conducted blind -- I don;t think ti was necessary - the Celeste sounded lumpy and heavy and even slow. The MF was by far the worst amplifier auditioned and velied on either the speakers -- even the cheapie Tripath which in original form is something like $20.00 US was better at least on the AN K. by no means great the Class T amp was veiled and sounded a bit light int he loafers but given the price I understand the hype and it might have performed better had the K been properly positioned -- or with the non silver wired version of the speakers.

The Oddyssy isn't about to make me switch to Solid State it was simply better in this system with the preamps and spekaers and room than the other amplifiers on the day. Against a Sugden A21a, or Sim Audio or Naim Separates and who knows. But unlike the other SS amps the Odyssy didn't annoy me - though as you note different ears. The K was found to be uber extended in the treble which normally bothers me and myself and one other of the five us felt there was more information being provided in the upper mid and treble and a more open lifelike sound. The other three felt the K was bright. I don;t care for SS ampliers with AN speakers generally but I did appreciate the K for really telling me how different all of these amplifiers really are. And the Gershmans as usual aqcitted themselves nicely as the refined sounding speakers they are. The Oddysseys woke them up from the slumber some of the amps seemed to put them in.

The Ellis was also nice and the owner felt that the Oddysy had far far suoperior bass and drive than his digital amp which he alluded was light weight. But then I bet the Oddyseys cost a lot more and thus should have more.

In my last post I said I would probably not see the value of spending more on SS amplification than the Odysseys -- but really that was a mistake -- I don;t see spending more than the Sugden A21a which is about $2,500.00Cdn -- after that there are very good tube options that I would take over pretty much any SS amp at any price I've heard thus far. But that's just my preference.

[drseid]

Topspeed

I can;t speak to any other Oddyssy amp the ones in my audition were the Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks and the preamps for audition were the Audio Experience symphonies Modified, Sonic Frontiers Line 1, SonoSilence One.

The speakers we used were the Gersman Acoustics X1 with Sub 1 and the Audio Note AN K/Spe. 3 of the 5 listeners felt the K was super extended in the treble and leaned bright certainly more extended and "brighter" than the Gershmans. The other speaker auditioned was the Ellis 1801


I also have no idea of the price of any of the units on the day. The other power amps in the shootout were:

Sonic Impact T-Amp Modified
Musical Fidelity A3cr Dual Mono
SimAudio Celeste W-4070

PS Audio HCA-2 (Did not play) (The fellow who brought this amp much preferred the Odyssy for his Elis loudspeakers and felt it was not worth playing)

Odyssey Stratos Stereo (Did not play)
Radii MSKT-88 Monoblocks

Integrated:
Soundstage Integrated

Digital Sources
Sony DVP-NC555ES Modded
Lite DAC60 Modded
Njoe Tjoeb
Akai Reference Master

Phono Preamps
Holfi Ellipse
Channel Islands Audio VPP-1 and VAC-1 Power Supply

Turntables
Roksan Radius 5 with Ortofon Contrapunkt A
Project Debut II with Shure M97eX

It was a fun time and not really super intensive or conducted blind -- I don;t think ti was necessary - the Celeste sounded lumpy and heavy and even slow. The MF was by far the worst amplifier auditioned and velied on either the speakers -- even the cheapie Tripath which in original form is something like $20.00 US was better at least on the AN K. by no means great the Class T amp was veiled and sounded a bit light int he loafers but given the price I understand the hype and it might have performed better had the K been properly positioned -- or with the non silver wired version of the speakers.

The Oddyssy isn't about to make me switch to Solid State it was simply better in this system with the preamps and spekaers and room than the other amplifiers on the day. Against a Sugden A21a, or Sim Audio or Naim Separates and who knows. But unlike the other SS amps the Odyssy didn't annoy me - though as you note different ears. The K was found to be uber extended in the treble which normally bothers me and myself and one other of the five us felt there was more information being provided in the upper mid and treble and a more open lifelike sound. The other three felt the K was bright. I don;t care for SS ampliers with AN speakers generally but I did appreciate the K for really telling me how different all of these amplifiers really are. And the Gershmans as usual aqcitted themselves nicely as the refined sounding speakers they are. The Oddysseys woke them up from the slumber some of the amps seemed to put them in.

The Ellis was also nice and the owner felt that the Oddysy had far far suoperior bass and drive than his digital amp which he alluded was light weight. But then I bet the Oddyseys cost a lot more and thus should have more.

In my last post I said I would probably not see the value of spending more on SS amplification than the Odysseys -- but really that was a mistake -- I don;t see spending more than the Sugden A21a which is about $2,500.00Cdn -- after that there are very good tube options that I would take over pretty much any SS amp at any price I've heard thus far. But that's just my preference.

I wonder RGA, which amp faired best with the Ellis speakers per chance (I know you said you and some others preferred the Odyssey Monoblocks with the Audio Notes already)? Since my speakers use the same SEAS mid driver, they have a similar general sound signature... If the Odysseys faired well with the 1801s (I am assuming these were the "B" version), then I might get my pleasant surprise with the Stratos+ afterall (although it looks like it was not used in the shootout).

---Dave

[RGA]

The owner of the Ellis also owned the Digital amp -- he preferred the Odyssey. Truthfully, he listened to the Odyseey and said it was better than his own amp. We did not listen long enough on the Ellis for me to be able to form an opinion but I did like the Ellis on vocals and it did have very good bass depth. It was not as open as the K nor as quick in transients

[drseid]

The Ellis is IMO one of the best values in audio... Pretty good bang for the buck for $1500 or less (of course I slightly prefer Tyler for roughly the same price -- my moniker gives that away)... I just wish Dave Ellis would release a larger floorstander version to improve the low-end (I believe there is an 1801F version, but it still is not low enough for my tastes).

Hmm, as for the T-amp, I actually own one of those (I use it for my office system at work). Even heavily modified with a couple hundred dollars of changes, it is a bit tough for it to compete against an amp 5+ times its modified price (although it would be great if it really *did*)... I like mine for what it is though (an inexpensive, high value amp for portable speaker applications). I plan on adding some high sensitivity Consonance Eric-1 mini-monitors to my office system next year, and those 8 watts will do me just fine. Plus as an added bonus if it gets stolen, I wont be out more than $25. :-)

---Dave

[RGA]

The only issue I had with the Ellis is that it's not very cheap. If you are correct and it is $1500.00 then that is pretty pricey - I prefferred the AN K which admittedly is $2300.00US -- but the AN E is miles and miles better than the K or Ellis and one can buy their kit for about $1700 including the Russian Birch cabinets.

You can build pretty much an entire matching systemd from DAC, to amp to speakers.. One day when i have some money I will probably try the Kit One.

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/

[drseid]

The only issue I had with the Ellis is that it's not very cheap. If you are correct and it is $1500.00 then that is pretty pricey - I prefferred the AN K which admittedly is $2300.00US -- but the AN E is miles and miles better than the K or Ellis and one can buy their kit for about $1700 including the Russian Birch cabinets.

You can build pretty much an entire matching systemd from DAC, to amp to speakers.. One day when i have some money I will probably try the Kit One.

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/

Well, keep in mind the drivers it uses are some of the best (and most costly) available (SEAS W18 Magnesium Excel mid-bass, and Hiquphon OW1 tweeters). In kit form it is much less expensive ($750 + cabinets) but fully assembled by master speaker builder Jim Salk it comes to about 1.5K last time I looked... Considering the drivers cost about $550+ for the pair, and the superb wood finish that Jim puts on them I would say they might not be "cheap," but are a *very* good value from an objective monetary standpoint (the sound will depend on one's preferences).

---Dave

[RGA]

The problem is there is way more to a speaker than the drivers or how expensive they are. The bottom line is the AN E has far deeper bass response and is far easier to drive which allows for the use of a set amp. The owner of the Ellis was getting unsuccessful results with a high watt digital amp and would need yet more power to get the bass out of them. Unfortunatley the AN E is a far bigger loudspeaker and requires more money to be spent on the cabinets.

Though it may interest you to know that the AN E uses a modified custom SEAS woofer and a Foster/Tonnegan Tweeter without ferro-fluid cooling.

The Ellis was very good against what one can purchase as production speakers...but it always remains the implemntation of the overall design than how much a given speaker driver costs. For example I'm leary when i read people with DIY projects and they are buying any driver to put in the box??? By any they buy a completely different design and imply that more expensive it is the better it will be. That does not take much into account the sonci signature of the driver materials or the crossover.

Audio Note operates largely on a cost no object premise so they could just as easily use any driver they wish without much added cost to the final product but any driver isn't going to get the sound they're after. First and foremost they don't want high pistonic drivers. Their drivers act as pressure radiators and in the J and moreso the E at loud levels with deep bass their woofers barely move (at least not in piston fashion). They believe in foam surrounds as well.

[kexodusc]

The Ellis was very good against what one can purchase as production speakers...but it always remains the implemntation of the overall design than how much a given speaker driver costs. For example I'm leary when i read people with DIY projects and they are buying any driver to put in the box??? By any they buy a completely different design and imply that more expensive it is the better it will be. That does not take much into account the sonci signature of the driver materials or the crossover.

Most DIY-ers do one of 2 things...build a proven design, or absolutely take into account the overall synergystic properties of all design considerations. Some are executed better than others. Very, very few buy just any driver and stuff it in a box. The great thing about companies like Seas is that tolerances are incredible straight from the factory. Matching is quite easy. Finding complementary drivers has never been easier with all the choices available today.

. First and foremost they don't want high pistonic drivers. Their drivers act as pressure radiators and in the J and moreso the E at loud levels with deep bass their woofers barely move (at least not in piston fashion). They believe in foam surrounds as well.

I've read this from Peter's posts before. You're reading too much into this. He's got the right approach, but it's an extremely common one. The drivers behave much the same way as any driver with similar excursion. Most 8" woofers don't flap around anymore than the AN E at similar levels. Some are heavier, have lower resonance points, and sp,e require longer excursions of course to produce the same output wihtout damage. This is where the driver acts more like a power tool and less like a speaker IMO. Not great for sound.

Some

[drseid]

The problem is there is way more to a speaker than the drivers or how expensive they are. The bottom line is the AN E has far deeper bass response and is far easier to drive which allows for the use of a set amp. The owner of the Ellis was getting unsuccessful results with a high watt digital amp and would need yet more power to get the bass out of them. Unfortunatley the AN E is a far bigger loudspeaker and requires more money to be spent on the cabinets.

Though it may interest you to know that the AN E uses a modified custom SEAS woofer and a Foster/Tonnegan Tweeter without ferro-fluid cooling.

The Ellis was very good against what one can purchase as production speakers...but it always remains the implemntation of the overall design than how much a given speaker driver costs. For example I'm leary when i read people with DIY projects and they are buying any driver to put in the box??? By any they buy a completely different design and imply that more expensive it is the better it will be. That does not take much into account the sonci signature of the driver materials or the crossover.

Audio Note operates largely on a cost no object premise so they could just as easily use any driver they wish without much added cost to the final product but any driver isn't going to get the sound they're after. First and foremost they don't want high pistonic drivers. Their drivers act as pressure radiators and in the J and moreso the E at loud levels with deep bass their woofers barely move (at least not in piston fashion). They believe in foam surrounds as well.

True about the sensitivity issue to an extent... I am not a tube fan, so that means nothing to me, but I could definately see that someone who likes SET would not be impressed from that perspective.

I also agree about drivers not being everything... implementation being very important as well. I would say that the Dennis Murphy designed crossovers in the Ellis 1801Bs are pretty good though (IMO).

As for any comparison to AN, I am not qualified to make the comparison, as I have never heard them. I will try to check them out at CES in January. In my case, I guess the looks just don't do it for me (no offense intended). I don't think I could get them in the door before being thrown out of the house... ;-) The sound may be great for all I know though.

---Dave