The Speaker Hunt Nears an End

[YBArcam]

Thought I'd start a thread as my system is finally nearing completion (i.e. I'm finally becoming satisfied with what I'm hearing). The next step is to decide on speakers, but I'll provide a little background first.

I recently replaced my Exposure 2010s2 amp with an Audiolab 8000S. A little bit lost in terms of sense of pace, but the 8000S gives a more full bodied sound, with a soundstage that is both deeper and closer to the listener. It's got greater peak power, has plenty of control over the speaker drivers, and is really well built (it's heavy, put together well, knobs and buttons don't feel cheap). I like the trade off, mainly because what bugged me about the Exposure amp was the thinner sound that felt like it was a little too distant.

So then it was time to decide on a new source (replacing my Exposure 2010s2 CD player). It really came down to the Rega Apollo or Arcam CD17. When I found out a local dealer had the 35th Anniversary Apollo still in stock I jumped at it. Picked it up two days ago. It's gorgeous. But also faulty. It wouldn't stop playing the first CD I fed it. I knew this might happen, these complaints are all over the Internet. But I bought it anyway knowing I've got the warranty if it should give me problems. Well, it's not working at all now, but it's going back to the dealer tomorrow to get fixed. Let me just say, that the sound it produced while it was playing for about a half hour was awesome. I felt like I got back some pace, but didn't lose anything. It seems to be a great match with my 8000S and Quad 12L2 speakers.

But now I've got this Exposure gear sitting here and I can trade it in, along with the 12L2, for some speakers. That was the plan from the get-go. To get the amp/CD player I wanted, and the best speakers to match. To get that full bodied, detailed, bigger soundstage, and bigger scale sound. Perhaps the 12L2 is what I'll keep, but I'm considering the following:

PMC TB2i - had these for an in home trial. They've got a nice open sound, with well defined and deep bass. What impressed me most was the detail they brought out. You can really follow every instrument and the separation from other instruments is top notch. Frankly, I think this is a must. How are you going to understand the music, have conveyed what the artist intended, if sounds are blended together and you can't hear the smaller details? A fabulous speaker, but the most expensive on my list. If I can get close but spend $1,000 less, I'll be very happy.

Monitor Audio RX2 - big 8" woofer. These just overwhelmed my room. Felt like they'd be a great speaker in a bigger space, but in my room they pressurized it too much and sounded boomy. When I plugged the port the speaker felt like any other smaller speaker and was a lot less interesting. On softer songs without a lot of bass they sounded great. Monitor Audio did a nice job reigning in the brightness of the old RS line, but these are now off my list.

Dynaudio Excite X16 - big sense of scale, deep bass, and sounded really musical, like the emotion in the music really came through. Are still in the running, though I'm concerned about placement with the rear port.

ProAc Studio 110 - will get to hear them soon.

Paradigm Studio 20 - I'm really excited about hearing these. Reviews make it seem like they provide everything I'm looking for, and it's a bonus that they've got a woofer that is slightly larger than average for a 6.5" model, and also a front port.

[Mr Peabody]

Looks like you've got some good speakers on your list. I'm partial to the Danes and have not heard Proac. I like Paradigm as well. If none make you as happy as the PM's though you might as well get them or you may never be happy with a compromise. Unless the difference is so slight it wouldn't justify the extra expense.

[YBArcam]

I could end up keeping the Quad's too. They sounded really great with the Apollo this past weekend. I wasn't sure it would make that much of a difference, but apparently it did. Though I'd need to hear some other music on them to be absolutely certain. Overall though, I think scale and bass would improve with the larger Paradigms.

[TheHills44060]

Never heard the PMC's before, in fact I've never heard any PMC speaker for that matter but always wondered. Not a fan of Monitor Audio...they do absolutely nothing for me, except for the rare exception. Definitely like the Dyanudio's and I've always loved ProAc although they maybe too laid back for some but they cater to my tastes. Wouldn't touch the Paradigms with a ten-foot pole. The studio series leaves me wanting to jab my eardrums out with a wire coat hanger.

[bobsticks]

I like the Danes too, they've got character.

Never had that problem with the Paradigms (the wire coathanger dillema) but they don't lift me to great heights either...at least the twenties don't.

I think you've made a very wise decision by going with in-home testing. Many could learn from that. Good show.

[Hyfi]

Dynaudio Excite X16 - big sense of scale, deep bass, and sounded really musical, like the emotion in the music really came through. Are still in the running, though I'm concerned about placement with the rear port.

See if you can find a used pair of Audience 82s. Mine have the port on the front. You won't be dis-satisfied with Danes, until you compare them to anything Von Schwiekert designed.

[Mr Peabody]

Despite the higher sensitivity of Paradigm I've found it typically still takes some power to make them sound good. They have a lively midrange that gives a live feel to the music. I too have heard some uninspired set ups with Paradigm but I have heard some good ones as well. My theory is without an amp with juice to pump the Paradigm bass driver properly they can sound quite out of balance. One of the best Paradigm setups I heard had an Adcom 5500 driving the bass end of Studio 100's.

[bobsticks]

Despite the higher sensitivity of Paradigm I've found it typically still takes some power to make them sound good. They have a lively midrange that gives a live feel to the music. I too have heard some uninspired set ups with Paradigm but I have heard some good ones as well. My theory is without an amp with juice to pump the Paradigm bass driver properly they can sound quite out of balance. One of the best Paradigm setups I heard had an Adcom 5500 driving the bass end of Studio 100's.

I feel the same same way about KEF.

[YBArcam]

I'm not surprised the Paradigms need a good bit of current. The graphs on Soundstage and Stereophile for the 20 actually show it dipping below 4 ohms. An amp rated for 4 ohms is ideal, and from all I've read the 8000S should be up to the challenge.

The only Paradigms that I've heard were the entry level Monitor series, a floorstanding model, powered by some sort of Krell amp. I really didn't like it, the sound wasn't smooth and clean. It's hard to describe, it just sounded really unrefined. I would expect the Studio series is a pretty big step up though.

[bobsticks]

The only Paradigms that I've heard were the entry level Monitor series, a floorstanding model, powered by some sort of Krell amp. I really didn't like it, the sound wasn't smooth and clean. It's hard to describe, it just sounded really unrefined. I would expect the Studio series is a pretty big step up though.

Really? Paradigm and Krell? i do not in any way disbelieve you, That's just an odd combination...not the best way to show off that speaker. I prefer the Studio 40 over the 20...just a personal thing...but the last time I heard it was in an Ovation, hooked through some Audiospace Reference gear and fed by a an MP3 player (?!)...I was completely nonplussed by the choice of lossy, compressed audio...

Clearly, some if not many dealers have no idea what they're doing.

[YBArcam]

Really? Paradigm and Krell? i do not in any way disbelieve you, That's just an odd combination...not the best way to show off that speaker. I prefer the Studio 40 over the 20...just a personal thing...but the last time I heard it was in an Ovation, hooked through some Audiospace Reference gear and fed by a an MP3 player (?!)...I was completely nonplussed by the choice of lossy, compressed audio...

Clearly, some if not many dealers have no idea what they're doing.

Yeah, it was an odd combination. I think it may have been a multichannel Krell amp, but I'm not sure. I didn't give that audition too much attention. It wasn't one that I initiated. I think the dealer had them set up and just wanted me to give it a listen to see if I liked the sound. Once I heard them I just knew they weren't for me. I guess with a different amp they might be more ideal. But to be honest, I always thought the Monitor line was ugly. Looks aren't a huge concern of course, but there are lots of speakers that look great that also sound great. So why would I buy something that's ugly, unless it's a radically different speaker design, and therefore also sounds really unique?

At the time I think I was looking for HT speakers, but I never followed through on that. Since then I've shifted focus to creating a nice two channel set up, and I'll worry about HT down the line.

[Mr Peabody]

Why would Krell and Paradigm be an odd combo? With the power of the Krell they would seem to be a decent combo. Not every one likes Krell but they are a very good amp.

[RGA]

The bottom line is buy what you like. I would try your best to listen to different kinds of speaker designs not a bunch largely following a similar signature - and most do and IMO not the best ones. As for Krell it being good or bad will depend on what you've compared it to and your taste. Me I would not touch a Krell and a Paradigm anything with a 50 foot pole but others seem to like em just fine.

You mentioned some concern over placement issues and rear ports. Have you considered sealed enclosures? I usually recommend the Audio Note K/Spe being a standmount and a sealed acoustic suspension design but it's too expensive.

There is Omega Loudspeakers which I have not heard but they are intriguing. First they're a single driver speaker and come in several configurations. They seem to have pretty solid bass response but being single driver there is no crossover and thus they should exhibit spot on cohesiveness. What look to be good prices and very very easy to drive (2 watts) is their claim for many of them. And they give 10 year warranties which is about double most of the rest of the industry. Moreover, they're bound to sound considerably different than your list of usual suspects. Perhaps try and get a listen to them on a good SE amplifier just to see what you think. Most companies will ship you gear to try. Magnepan may advertise it but most companies will in fact do the same thing.

The Omega Alnico 8 holds interest for me due to the seeming high level of quality for the price and that they are Sealed boxes. http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/products/super8series

I will try and get something from them for review.

[YBArcam]

Why would Krell and Paradigm be an odd combo? With the power of the Krell they would seem to be a decent combo. Not every one likes Krell but they are a very good amp.

It's just the price discrepancy really. Of course you are correct, Krell should have little problem driving just about any speaker, and the poor sound was much more likely due to the Paradigms.

Thanks for the Omega suggestion, RGA. I'll take a look at them. In all honesty I'm probably going to go the conventional route this time around, but any future change will involve looking at some much different designs, both for amps and speakers. If I can try them out without any commitment then I'm sure I'll take the chance sooner rather than later.

[bobsticks]

Why would Krell and Paradigm be an odd combo? With the power of the Krell they would seem to be a decent combo. Not every one likes Krell but they are a very good amp.

It's not a comment as to the power capabilities or quality of either. I loved the way the Krell integrated rocked your Danes, Mr. P...in fact, I think I weakly contemplated buying that unit, eh? Remember?
I just think the sonic signatures of the two would be, ahem, "awkward" if combined...just a supposition with no basis.

The bottom line is buy what you like. I would try your best to listen to different kinds of speaker designs not a bunch largely following a similar signature - and most do and IMO not the best ones...

True...and good advice...but I strongly suspect that YBA is not a newb and has a fair idea of the sound he likes.
However, I too have been intrigued by the Omega offerings. Here's a review...

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/omega6/super3.html

[RGA]

bobsticks

I am never sure of people's experiences. I went to practically every audio shop in the downtown and great Vancouver area. Vancouver isn't a massive city, but the average home price in Vancouver is now over a million dollars and 1/13 have a net worth of a million bucks. It's one of if not the most expensive cities to live in North America.

Most dealers carry very similar designed products which are more about home decor over sound quality. The issue is that one can be an audiophile and very possibly go 15 years without once auditioning a good horn speaker. And while Klipsch is around they're sold at a drug store or big box chain so they can't even be auditioned on any sort of equal footing. Worse is that most dealers seem to carry big name competitors. So one dealer may carry Paradigm another may carry B&W and the third Dynaudio. All have speakers in the same price class but all three sold in different shops with different amps/sources. I have the advantage that I live on Vancouver Island and the big dealer - Soundhounds - carries all three of them so you can do direct comparisons. But this is the only dealer like this that I have been to.

The thing ultimately is that "most" people have not heard single driver speakers, open baffle designs, Lossy cabinet designs, or for that matter good electrostats. The vast majority carry a slim floorstander with several 6-6.5 drivers in an MDF box that is deeper than it wide and has some sort of tweeter (usually metal) at the top with similar efficiency ratings and often come as part of some sort of home theater package. You can add the center and rears and sub later if you wish.

The designers out there bucking the usual trend likely do so because they feel they can make a much better sounding product where they're not constrained by market share and the "Corporation" style agenda - see movie "The Corporation."

FWIW I'd probably lean towards the Dynaudio from the list but I'd still try for a used high efficiency speaker - perhaps a Tannoy which is probably easier to locate. If for no other reason than to keep the low powered tube amp option open.

Logically, keeping all your amp options open makes more sense than being forced to buy a 100 watt+ SS amp. Tannoy appears to have several speakers in this general price class.

[Mr Peabody]

I'll keep an open mind but I have to wonder if "bucking the trend" is just another way of getting attention in a crowded market. I wouldn't think if single driver or open baffle is so good it would take 50 years to figure out how to do it. I also like how the 6Moons reviewer goes in to great detail explaining the effect of higher frequency harmonics then basically says, oh, but you don't need those any way. I am a firm believer of harmonics since taking in a training session with HK back in the day where they explained harmonics and why their receivers were designed to have a frequency bandwidth of 5-100k. I am really suspect of open baffle unless they are in-wall subs. I don't see how an open baffle speaker just sitting in a room could possibly have an accurate bass response. The Carver Amazing Loudspeaker had a bass response but it was like a cheap headphone type bass, no definition. It also seems that if single driver was the way to go that Pro sound would have adopted it years ago.

[YBArcam]

RGA, are we talking the Tannoy Prestige line to get that kind of speaker? I once owned a pair of Tannoy Mercury F2, which I felt was a great $300 speaker. Since then I have always been interested in the brand, and also what with learning some of their history and just how much the Tannoy name means in hifi circles. But the Prestige line is too expensive for me right now. The Revolution Signature line is in my price range, but I'm thinking you would consider that to be in the category of the others on my list. There's a great dealer in my area that carries Tannoy and I've listened to a couple of the Prestige speakers. They are impressive for sure, the only concern I'd have is that they perhaps sound a little too refined, maybe a little too perfect. But I'm not comfortable in passing judgment on them after only listening to each for about a half hour.

You said you wouldn't touch Paradigm with a 50 foot pole. I'm curious what it is that you dislike so much. I just came across a positive-feedback review of the 20 that pretty much echoes what the Stereophile and Soundstage! reviews said about the speaker's strengths. They seem to be exactly what I'm looking for in terms of sound.

That said, I've listened to enough of the this kind of speaker over the last year. After this purchase I'm definitely going to start listening to other kinds of designs.

bobsticks, you are right, I'm not a newb. I'm also far from the most experienced and I've still got a lot to learn. I'd say that I pretty much know what kind of sound I want, but it is like RGA said - that's within the context of having listened to primarily one kind of speaker design, all powered by relatively affordable SS amplifiers. I really don't know what else is out there.

I'm curious what you guys would suggest when it comes to these other kinds of designs, if playing primarily rock music. Like, are electrostats even worth considering for that genre of music? Can a single driver speaker do rock justice? Etc. It would seem to me, that the ideal might be a medium/large sized room with a pair of efficient speakers that are both wide and tall, and house at least a 12" woofer, powered by a smooth but powerful amp.

[Mr Peabody]

YBA, yoou just described the Klipsch Cornwall www.klipsch.com take a look at the Heritage line. I've got a set of Heresy III I'm keeping around for fun.

[RGA]

I'll keep an open mind but I have to wonder if "bucking the trend" is just another way of getting attention in a crowded market. I wouldn't think if single driver or open baffle is so good it would take 50 years to figure out how to do it. I also like how the 6Moons reviewer goes in to great detail explaining the effect of higher frequency harmonics then basically says, oh, but you don't need those any way. I am a firm believer of harmonics since taking in a training session with HK back in the day where they explained harmonics and why their receivers were designed to have a frequency bandwidth of 5-100k. I am really suspect of open baffle unless they are in-wall subs. I don't see how an open baffle speaker just sitting in a room could possibly have an accurate bass response. The Carver Amazing Loudspeaker had a bass response but it was like a cheap headphone type bass, no definition. It also seems that if single driver was the way to go that Pro sound would have adopted it years ago.

Problem is you are wondering about "seeing how" and talking about some other companies "written documents" which is kind of my main point. A lot of people argue the theory until they're blue in the face - most of them on internet forums with little supportive credentials to back up why I should take anything they have to say with any grain of salt. People often also take a poor example of a design and compare it to the best of the best of their favorite design.

As for why single drivers are unpopular or many speakers with wide baffles is not the science it's the aesthetic. Most audiophiles are males (and most makes are easy to market to on visuals). Although that is not entirely true - like my comments about most of the best rooms at CES using tube amplfiers (which is true) it is also true that all of the best rooms had speaker designs that don't look anything like a Paradigm Studio 100 and every other speaker in the world that "look like" a Studio 100. Indeed, event he companies who do make such carbon copy speakers - when you look at their top of the line models - they look "nothing" like those middling models. You can eve look at Dynaudio's top speaker. IMO the reason most follow the pattern is because the pattern is easy on the eyes, and they're cheap to make and are nice for the bottom line.

The single driver has weaknesses when I just look at the idea. The driver has to cover a large frequency spectrum with control and volume capability. I doubt it's going to be able to do it in the Omega price or size class. The Teresonic Ingenium IMO doesn't quite get there and they run $10k. But to be fair there are a LOT of speakers that don't get there and they have many drivers in a box and virtually none of them are as spot cohesive and sounding "right" where 95% of music resides. Most speakers will need a sub for super deep bass anyway. My thought on the Omega is that looking at the pictures he had them in a MASSIVE room and I am thinking if you put such speakers in a 12 X 16 room and place them near walls or in corners (for the sealed models) then the corners "might" be able to add a lot of low end drive.

Of course I won't know any of this unless I audition them. I sent them an e-mail - you never know. I have others on my list but I like the prices that seem to me to be affordable.

[RGA]

YBArcam

Tannoy is a funny company they have made speakers I felt were way to polite sounding and rather boring (like what I hear from most Thiel and Vandersteen speakers). Though that is probably not a bad side of the spectrum over longer listening for some listeners but they tend to bore me to death. Then there are Tannoy speakers that will blow you into next week like their pro and club speakers with 18inch dual concentrics in a club that can just pound but also sound quite cohesive and refined but they ran something like $15k Tannoy has a lot of offerings and some are better than others.

With Paradigm I am not a big fan for 2 channel. I get the good reviews and I also get that none of the reviewers actually buy them for themselves. They're a product that after you've heard a lot of speakers you would sell them. They're a line of speakers to be sold not owned as my dealer would say (and incidentally he's one of the biggest Paradigm dealers in Canada). Not a single guy working there and selling them would actually buy them and put them in their home. I get the appeal - they're pretty inexpensive and some of them are actually quite good value. The Atom is a great little speaker and the Titan is not bad and they have a nice little one with an 8 inch woofer (monitor 3 I believe) not perfect but they were punchy and fairly refined.

People like them and they get good press (so does everything) the trick is trying to read between the lines. The midrange lower treble that is a deal breaker for me on most of their speakers. The floorstanders since the very good V2 series seem to sound hollow and boxy. They sound like Home theater speakers. I suppose it will come down to taste because plenty of their competitors pretty much sound and do the same sorts of things. But then that was the point in suggesting different designs. They may be more about nuance and subtlety and micro-dynamics rather slam. Of course if you listen to rock and movies then it makes sense. It is a new era after all and nobody really listens to classical or jazz anymore. Walking through the big box music chains tell us this clearly.

[D. Paul Navigator]

RGA: I agree with description that high end speakers are rather boring by the surround standards. However the people that drop tens of thousands of dollars are looking for accuracy above all else (typical of Thiel). The European market (less emphasis on bass) tends to follow this style of sound more than the American way of in your face sound.

[RGA]

RGA: I agree with description that high end speakers are rather boring by the surround standards. However the people that drop tens of thousands of dollars are looking for accuracy above all else (typical of Thiel). The European market (less emphasis on bass) tends to follow this style of sound more than the American way of in your face sound.

There is a balance of the extremes. I believe a speaker needs to play ALL music to a very high degree - if it can't then it can;t be called an accurate loudspeaker. Audiophiles may like dynamically inept loudspeakers and they may spend $10 grand on them - but accurate they most certainly ain't. The other extreme is the speaker that can rock the house down like Cerwin Vega but have pathetic tonality, timbral accuracy, micro-dynamics, nuance, etc. IMO both speakers are not desirable "unless" your music catalog resides in one or the other camp and never ever dips into the other. Thiel is in the former camp, but ask it to do the other camp they are woefully lacking in every regard. Ultimately the user has a budget and a music collection and you need to know what music you listen to more often and forget being a part of the "hi-fi acceptance" club buying stuff that other people will view as "high-end." If you listen to 80% rock and roll and care more about how it sounds you don;t go and buy any Thiel loudspeaker just to tell people "I'm an audiophile - see I bought Thiel" and the good and the great will say you did good. No you buy a balls to the wall loudspeaker that does a credible job for other kinds of music. Indeed, I have a cheap and cheerful speaker that does just that in the Wharfedale Vanguard (is an upgraded 3 driver version of the classic E-70) For rock this thing will kill a Thiel. http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...fedalee70.html for classical the Thiels will kill the Wharfedale - but since most people listen to more rock and roll they make more sense - and save a pile of cash.

The Gallo 3.5 for instance is a dream rock and roll speaker with studio pedigree and lack of colouration that it can do justice to classical and jazz. But I'd need to have it in my house for a while to see what I can get from it from tubes or single ended amps. The treble hash I heard is likely due to the SS amp that was being run.

You're certainly correct that EU tends to like speakers of the polite restrained variety - but I also think that is shifting. Their market is similar - all the speakers were largely of one type and so everyone heard the same kind of sounding BBC dipped loudspeaker or 20 varieties of the LS/3 - while in North America everyone gets a 3-5 driver slim box. I would personally avoid both kinds because neither can play all music - I listen to everything from Beethoven to Johnny Cash to Madonna, to Slayer to Coltrane and IMO a speaker and system needs to make me believe that what I am listening to is like the real thing - it needs to be able to pound in the midbass when called for and it needs to be wholly out of the way when a solo pianist is playing. The list of what I have heard that can do both ends is very very small and mostly very expensive.

[blackraven]

YBA, great pick up on that Rega Apollo SE CDP! It's a fantastic player and I would put it up players costing thousands more.

For speakers, I would consider a pair of PSB Synchrony's if they are in your budget. Awesome sounding speaker. They blow away the Paradigm Signature series in every aspect.

[YBArcam]

I'm still really excited about the Apollo. While I'm sure I'll enjoy it once it's fixed, given the problems that seem to plague these Rega players, I don't know that I'll hang onto it for more than two years. I'm thinking it's likely I'll sell it while it still has a year of warranty remaining and I may purchase an Arcam CD17 or something like that. Or perhaps something entirely different. Then again, if the Rega is flawless over the next two years then I might just keep it. But it'll have to be flawless, or with very, very minor issues. But if it acts funny then I don't think I'd want to risk keeping it past 3 years.

Thanks for the PSB recommendation. I would go for the One, and it would appear to be a great speaker for my application. Over my budget though. If I can get a deal on them (like a demo model or something) I'll be sure to give them a try. The Paradigm dealer here also carries PSB. So I will ask about them.