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  1. #1
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    Should I exchange these speakers or not? Need some advice.

    I'm in a bit of a sticky situation here. I recently bought a new Denon AVR-1905 amp and some Mission V61 speakers (I got these for 150 but they seem to retail at around 300).

    At the moment, the feeling that I'm getting from these speakers is that unless they are bi-wired the bass seems to control everything, which is fair enough, as some of that seems to dissapear when you get them bi-wired (which I have done). But it seems that even with bi-wiring, that's only punched the treble up a bit, and the mids still seem non-existant. I don't know if I've configured these speakers wrong, and I've tried looking on the net but I can't find any info on these speakers apart from people that are selling them.

    So, I may be taking these speakers back to the store that I purchased them from tomorrow because of my currently feelings for them. Now, there is another store which stocks the Monitor Audio Bronze B2's, which I hear good things about. Now these cost approx 200.

    My decision right now, is to dump the Mission V61's and never get them at that rediculous price again (or is that the kinda price you should pay for these?), and go for the Monitor Audio's.

    I'm concerned because I'm thinking that maybe the Mission V61's (being a supposedly 300 pound speaker), are going to be better than any 200 speaker I can afford.

    I hope you can see my problem, I appreciate any advice .

  2. #2
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    The strangest thing is...bi-wiring makes no audible difference. You're saying bi-wiring them makes major sound differences??

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    The strangest thing is...bi-wiring makes no audible difference. You're saying bi-wiring them makes major sound differences??
    Absolutely, 100%. The treble is far more evident now. If you look up reviews of the Monitor Audio speakers quite a few people say you need to bi-wire them too.

  4. #4
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    Have you tried to simply adjust the base and treble controls on the receiver???

  5. #5
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    Well, I did try pulling the speakers off the wall a bit, which was a very small improvement. But, then I found an option to set distance from listening position. It was set to 3.6m. Which, I'm more around 2m away from the speakers. So, I reset the settings appropriately and WOW, alot different than before. I'm still in a testing listening phase but it seems to be mucho improvement right now.

    There aren't really any trouble or bass controls on this particular amp, but there are other controls which I suppose might have a similar effect.

  6. #6
    RGA
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    Bass is largely a funvction of room and positioning. Most speakers don't like to be very close to walls because you get a lot of bass boom which makes it difficult to hear the midrange. Most speakers like to be at least 1.5 feet from the rear wall and the same from any side walls - many speakers like a good 3 feet from both.

    Some spekaers like near field listening which often avoids some of the room reflections. Bi-wiring can matter if the speaker is designed for bi-wiring - many makers just put the jumpers on the back and there is no difference - but that is not the case for all makers. Still it should be a relatively subtle difference - but ya never know until the specific speaker and specific amp and specific cables are specifically tested. Chances are Tom Nousaine hasn't tested your gear.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular risabet's Avatar
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    How long have you had them? Are they broken in yet? Don't make any decisions until the speaker has had a good 30 or so hours of play to break in the drivers and crossover components.

    Linn LP-12 (Origin Live Advanced PS w/DC Motor) Benz "ACE" medium output*TAD-150*Tube Audio Design TAD-1000 monoblocs*Parasound CD-P 1000*NAD 4020A Tuner*Velodyne F-1000 Subwoofer*Toshiba SD-4700 DVD*Motorola DTP-5100 HD converter*Pioneer PDP-4300*Martin-Logan Clarity*Audioquest cables and interconnects* Panamax 5100 power conditioner

  8. #8
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    Well, I did try pulling the speakers off the wall a bit, which was a very small improvement. But, then I found an option to set distance from listening position. It was set to 3.6m. Which, I'm more around 2m away from the speakers. So, I reset the settings appropriately and WOW, alot different than before. Although I'm still not too happy with them.

    The speakers are somewhat broken in as they were cheaper because they were on display for a few months.

  9. #9
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    Here's My 2 cents worth here,,, Im thinking if You dont like them take them back,, it matters not if they were a good price, if you dont like them then it wasnt a great deal,get something that You like the sound of.. A few bucks difference in price over Alot of hours of enjoyment would make me look for something I like the sound of,,.
    Dale M

  10. #10
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    I haven't really had the oppertunity to give them a good chance yet, so I'd like to get some more listening time in before I make my final decision.

    Some alternatives I was considering should I return the speakers were:

    B&W DM602 S3's
    Monitor Audio Bronze B2's
    Wharfdale Diamond 9.1's

  11. #11
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    Before purcahsing my B&W 602's I listened to the Monitor Line and also to Paradigm (which I was not pleased with) And for my money, moving to the B&W's would not be a mistake at all. The midrange clarity is my favorite aspect of what I'm listening to, and I have a Harmon Kardon AVR-40 reciever I'm using right now. Maybe your denon could squeak even a little more out.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    I think you need to lay off the sighted listenings before you go drawing conclusions about biwiring and setting the distance, and whether or not new speakers will make you happy. I've biwired my system, and I don't think it makes anything other than a subtle difference. Also, the distance/delay timing on a receiver will make no difference in the tonal characteristics if the speakers are plugged into a two-channel configuration (in a 5.1 setup, the delay timing helps to change the spatiality and imaging quality by compensating for any differences in distances between speakers).

    The thing about sighted listening is that it is highly unreliable, particularly if you've been making changes to your system settings in search of something that improves on the sound quality. Improvements that you might perceive as clear cut and obvious might not be distinguishable at all if you try listening under blind conditions (i.e. someone else switching out the parameters without you knowing when they've been done or not).

    If you really want to know what kind of improvement new speakers can make, you need to directly compare them at home. Just listening to it at a dealer demo room will not tell you much because the acoustical conditions there might be entirely different. Much of what you're complaining about very well might originate from your room acoustics. In terms of actual audible AND measureable differences, speakers and room acoustics have the widest range of possibilities. If you have a bad room, there might not be too many other speakers that you'll like very much either when you take them home, in which case you'll have to address your room before you even bother with the speakers.

    As for which speakers you should get, I think you need to first focus on what type of sound you're looking for, then try and find speakers that match those preferences. At THAT point, you look into whether or not you can get a good deal. It seems to me that you've focused on the size of the discount without regard for whether that speaker represents the type of sound that you want. Doesn't matter how much a speaker costs or what it cost before or what kind of a great deal you think you're swinging, if you don't like the sound then it would be a ripoff at any price.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I think you need to lay off the sighted listenings before you go drawing conclusions about biwiring and setting the distance, and whether or not new speakers will make you happy. I've biwired my system, and I don't think it makes anything other than a subtle difference. Also, the distance/delay timing on a receiver will make no difference in the tonal characteristics if the speakers are plugged into a two-channel configuration (in a 5.1 setup, the delay timing helps to change the spatiality and imaging quality by compensating for any differences in distances between speakers).

    The thing about sighted listening is that it is highly unreliable, particularly if you've been making changes to your system settings in search of something that improves on the sound quality. Improvements that you might perceive as clear cut and obvious might not be distinguishable at all if you try listening under blind conditions (i.e. someone else switching out the parameters without you knowing when they've been done or not).
    For me, when I bi-wired the system and changed the settings I experianced a notable difference in sound, what it was caused by and how, I couldn't tell you, I don't know the inner workings of Denon's systems. I'm quite attentive to changes as I've got quite well trained ears so it may be more obvious to me then other people, but I'm sure that the changes I've made on my setup, would maybe have no effect if someone did the same effect to their setup, with different cables etc. For me personally, that was what I experianced. I preferred it. Those are my experiances, and indeed, I did do a 'blindfold' test I suppose you would call it, where I had someone change things and see which I prefered, as these things can become mental when you're so obssessed by it.

    As I said, I'm not specialist on speakers and things, I'm still learning, and experiancing. Before now I've just thrown all my cash into nice headphone setups with headphone amps etc etc. They are fantastic for when I don't have friends around, but sometimes you don't want to be using headphones, so I've started something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    If you really want to know what kind of improvement new speakers can make, you need to directly compare them at home. Just listening to it at a dealer demo room will not tell you much because the acoustical conditions there might be entirely different. Much of what you're complaining about very well might originate from your room acoustics. In terms of actual audible AND measureable differences, speakers and room acoustics have the widest range of possibilities. If you have a bad room, there might not be too many other speakers that you'll like very much either when you take them home, in which case you'll have to address your room before you even bother with the speakers.
    Couldn't agree more, but there isn't really a way that any dealer here will let me borrow potential speakers, nor do I know anybody locally with the speakers that I have/had in mind. I've had other speakers in this room, which haven't suffered from the problems the V61's had. After doing some research, it seems quite common that maybe those particular model of missions were a bit heavy on the bass side of things, but that is obviously excentuated within a room of my size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    As for which speakers you should get, I think you need to first focus on what type of sound you're looking for, then try and find speakers that match those preferences. At THAT point, you look into whether or not you can get a good deal. It seems to me that you've focused on the size of the discount without regard for whether that speaker represents the type of sound that you want. Doesn't matter how much a speaker costs or what it cost before or what kind of a great deal you think you're swinging, if you don't like the sound then it would be a ripoff at any price.
    I'm sorry if I've given off that impression, I really could care a less about the price, as long as I can afford it. I don't care if I get a good deal or not myself. My main concern (bare in mind I don't know too much about speakers), is that V61's, were better than any other speakers that I could afford, that maybe I had just lucked out getting them at the price I did, and maybe that, right now, that's the best I can afford.

    As I'm sure most of you guys know, Headphones are the cheapest audiophile solution. If you want the same quality of a headphone, in a speaker, you looking at big bucks. So, in my mind, I was thinking that these 320 pound speakers, that I got for 150, are probably the best that I can get right now, and I'm lucky to have them. I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying I was after a great deal, I was just saying that I didn't know if I had speakers better than what was within my budget, and I just got lucky getting them for 150. I enjoy detailed, balanced, neutral/natural accurate reproduction of audio. I don't enjoy too much bass, or anything like that.

    I enjoy what I hear through my Audio Technica ATH-A900's, and also my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones, which have a slightly more laid back feel than the ATH-A900's. I know I like their sound, and I felt they were natural sounding.

  14. #14
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    Oh yes, and I picked up some Monitor Audio Bronze B2's later on today, and I have since been very pleased with them although they have yet to burn in.

    Would you recommend that I would change the distance to default 3.6m, even though I'm more sorta 2.2m away? I don't think that it would really be good to have it set incorrectly. But then again, I don't know much.
    Last edited by shuurajou; 01-03-2005 at 05:35 PM.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shuurajou
    Oh yes, and I picked up some Monitor Audio Bronze B2's later on today, and I have since been very pleased with them although they have yet to burn in.

    Would you recommend that I would change the distance to default 3.6m, even though I'm more sorta 2.2m away? I don't think that it would really be good to have it set incorrectly. But then again, I don't know much.
    I wouldn't focus too much about breaking in speakers. In my experience, they can sound different fresh out of the box, but a few hours of normal playing and they're about where they should be. Others will tell you that the only thing breaking in is probably your ears as they get used to the sound of the speakers, and there's probably some merit to that given how many self-professed audiophiles are prone to exaggerating subtle differences into "night and day" improvements.

    As far as the distance goes, as I mentioned before the distance matters ONLY if you have a multichannel setup. In a simple two-channel system, the receiver will not vary one bit because there are no time domain errors that you need to compensate for. With multichannel setup, the distance setting will let the receiver set the delay timing in order to compensate for any differences in distance so that the sounds all arrive at the listening position at the same time. In neither case will it make any difference in the tonal characteristics.

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