Philosophical question: Do I want speakers that are aggressive, accurate, or laid ba

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Originally Posted by RGA

The problem is that for the conversation to really work one needs to know exactly what eachother is saying about a specific recording...

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Yes, detail and resolution are necessary to produce "air". And like you, I was talking about the same space between instruments, etc.. That is what I meant by "spatial clues". "Transparency" too depends on great resolution.

And for sure, some speakers and other components such as amplifiers can sound "tizzy". Which I take to be a combination of upper mid and/or high brightness and grain. My old Phase Linear 400 amp had this, and for a while I took this for detail but after I upgraded to better speakers it became irritating. What a revelation it was when I heard newer and much better quality amps; of course, I ended up with a Bel Canto eV02i which is definitely detailed and transparent.

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Originally Posted by RGA

I...
I think what I am saying is that there is an etchy brighntess to a number of speakers that is stamped on to most everything regardless of recordings - and is being CALLED detail or air wehen it clearly isn't. A Violin crescendo coming out of black silent background as opposed to a surrounding ssssssss is not bringing out the detail - it is treble noise . ...

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That accoustic instruments, notably brass but also strings, etc., played loud, can most definitely have a certain "glare". A speaker that reproduces this in its true intensity is not necessarly edgy nor inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Plus I don't want to get into specific speakers too much.

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Good idea

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Originally Posted by RGA

It won't help for a basis of comparison without the same speakers being heard and compared in the same room. Consider the advertising on the tweeters at a major British Speaker making who likes yellow Kevlar drivers and you may see my problem with some of them.

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How subtle and cryptic. I wonder who you're referring to...can you give us a hint? Please? :D

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The problems they work to fix is improved "supposedly" on the higher models which means they are "leaking" some of the nasties on the lower models -- those nasties may not show up on the down and dirty frequency plots but audibly it is there and it isn't detail.

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Truth is, that stuff does show up in measurements. Call it what you want, but it's very easy to spot. The problem is it's often withheld or even hidden by the people presenting the data. The way measurements (especially FR plots) are delivered to the public is the problem...rediculous amounts of octave smoothing is the worst trick I've seen. Now that I have some measurement gear and access to more sophisticated instruments, I've been able to see just how poorly Stereophile and SoundStage! present a lot of data. In house measurements by a company measuring its own stuff are even worse.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

That accoustic instruments, notably brass but also strings, etc., played loud, can most definitely have a certain "glare". A speaker that reproduces this in its true intensity is not necessarly edgy nor inaccurate.

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A point that will not missed by anyone who has the good fortune ( or not as the case may be) of sitting close to a Jazz band or even a Classical string quartet in full flow. :D

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

Good idea

How subtle and cryptic. I wonder who you're referring to...can you give us a hint? Please? :D

Truth is, that stuff does show up in measurements. Call it what you want, but it's very easy to spot. The problem is it's often withheld or even hidden by the people presenting the data. The way measurements (especially FR plots) are delivered to the public is the problem...rediculous amounts of octave smoothing is the worst trick I've seen. Now that I have some measurement gear and access to more sophisticated instruments, I've been able to see just how poorly Stereophile and SoundStage! present a lot of data. In house measurements by a company measuring its own stuff are even worse.

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Well yes I know one maker who bought the industry standard speaker measuring system and tested his own and several compeitors speakers and concluded the measuring system was so totally innacurate and downright lousy that he is now not surprised by the state of affairs in the loudspeaker industry. Luckily they built their own for a higher level of precision. Kind of like using a 3 band $29.00 Graphic Equalizer to fix stereo systems and that is the industry standard. You say what a load of crap and go build a $50,000.00 $800 band graphic equalizer with premium parts trhoughout. Not perfect but way the hell better.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

That accoustic instruments, notably brass but also strings, etc., played loud, can most definitely have a certain "glare". A speaker that reproduces this in its true intensity is not necessarly edgy nor inaccurate.

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Playing loud should not induce a problem that wasn't there at 70db. Obviously within the volume capabilities of the system. Brass can have bite - But I have listened to live unamplified Jazz with many horns and it is often presented artificially - a pre echo or ringing in many audio systems (not jsut a blame of the speaker though).

Your phase linear example is what I'm talking about -- mistaking grain and tizzyness for detail when it in fact is grain and tizzyness. That isn;t to say EVERYTHING that is perceived as detail is grain - just that that edginess can be mistaken for detail especially in typical short term listening sessions -- that extra bite on the violin that extra ssshh on the trumpet and that added ringy dingy on the cymbal can often be speaker induced noise passing itself off as more detail. Especially at high frequency where we are less able to discen qualitative differences on short term listening. After a while we tune out of the presentation or get fatigued by it. I can listen to live unamplified Jazz up close and I don't get fatigued by trumpets -- that glare is the fundamentals of that instrument but on home systems it can fatigue rapidly so something is amiss. Drum kits the same goes for the Cymbals - they don;t in themselves sound etchy edgy or harsh - they have a lot of energy in their frequency band but that's different.