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Woochifer
I was talking about SACD and DVDA - not multichannel movies. Obviously movies are very popular forcing many high end stores on board. SACD is another matter and I did say in Vancouver Canada - how popular it is selling in California may be another issue - but the SOny Stores here don't cary any SACD models. HifiTommy bought a bargooon SACD DVD all in one player real cheap - that model here was a low $219.00Cdn. I have the new SONY Canada catalog and there are no cheap SACD modesl sold at all. There is a 400 disc player that is also SACD at $800.00 and the SACD ES players. No SACD players are sold at any of the big box chains and no store other than A&B sound sells ANY of the music. A&B sounds carries one shelf worth of SACD and DVDA - about 50 titles total - and for all I know there are 5 copies - so not a true 50 different titles.
Were people buying the Sony at $219.00 BECAUSE it had SACD - did the average consumer even notice that it played SACD - was that the ONLY reaosn they bought that player or was it because it was a Sony and a DVD player? And is it even a multi-channel SACD machine? Many were 2 channel SACD which was a waste of the format purpose.
Commercial Electronics in Vancouver is a professional High end dealership that does home installations for surround sound...I have heard it well set-up there - they are also the largest Bryston dealer in the world - including their H/T set-ups with one very impressive room with top flight JM Labs surround sound.
Comparing 2 channel to mono versus surround to stereo is stupid. I have heard surround sound music well set-up in well-appointed rooms with the same discs and that is a ridiculous comparison. Even with the mega prices at Commercial electronics on SACD the same albums did not justify its price in my view.
You can blast 2 channel all you want but if my choice is between 2 channel Audio Note or five channel Paradigm it is simply no contest to me - and I know your stance is the opposite - you can't live without the effects of surround sound music and movies and I can't live the physical sound of the Paradigm speakers - they can integrate perfectly for all I care - but they fatigue me - so 5 of them will just fatigue me faster.
Perhaps 5 Quad standmounts would not but have not heard them.
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Originally Posted by RGA
Lets say you and I HYPTHETICALLY believe that a VERY good home theater sound system(not incluiding TV is $3000.00US or $4000.00Cdn. Let's assume that this is what we would be totally satisfied by and probably would not feel the need to upgrade - at least not for many years. Now if you're budget is only $1000.00 does it make sense to buy something you won't be happy with or buy your set-up in bits and pieces? I choose the latter - because we can add to it later.
Well, let's just say that's exactly what my approach was. I started with a speaker budget of $1,000 and it took me two years to piece together the entire system. If I had been shopping for a two-channel system, I would have stopped with the original pair of speakers. I spent a total of about $1,900 on the five speakers, but at no time did I ever have that amount available at the same time, so a $1,900 pair of speakers and then adding on to that was never part of the equation.
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Originally Posted by RGA
Why start a second system. Well I dislike the sound of receivers - I don't want to run a receiver through my AN K. Ideally I want an Audio Note amp which are Single Ended Tubes - no home theater. The Wharfedales are ballsier than most subwoofers and rather than sell them for a song I may as well put em to h/t duty.
Why not run your Audio Notes through the Marantz? You got the equipment, so why not see what your ANs are capable of, and what your Marantz can do with them?
You can say that your Wharfedales are ballsier than most main speakers, but most subwoofers out there are capable of generating lows well below 30 Hz. (And subwoofers can be further tweaked with a parametric EQ, which can make the bass far more even than just about any speaker's normal in-room playback) Why not do an in-room measurement to verify the bass extension for yourself? You made a point of posting the specs on those speakers.
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Originally Posted by RGA
As for rear effects. Perhaps it is my room speakers or just the recordings but i don't think people have even tried surround with to speakers with a quality amp and quality speakers. In the movie the Thing there is a helicopter scene at the beginning when the helicopter starts behind the listener passes overhead and all around. with TWO speakers the Helicopter sounds like it is flying from behind and overhead just as it does in a home theater. In lesser home theater this sound is more directional which is actually WORSE because I know it is a speaker blaring at me.
That has nothing to do with "lesser home theater" and more to do with poor placement (were the surrounds elevated at least 1' above ear level and not directly pointed into the listening position?), mismatched levels, and/or (most likely) incorrect delay timing. Matching the levels with a SPL meter, following Dolby's placement guidelines, and correctly setting the delay timing makes even direct firing surround speakers blend in with the front three and not standout as a point source.
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Originally Posted by RGA
Using the rear wall the helicopter freaked me out because i know there is NO SPEAKER there - COOL MAN. When a gunshot is fired from behind your head in Saving Private Ryan and from all around your head again with JUST two speakers it has a cool factor rather than hearing the tizz of a speaker. I have had rear speakers and H/T in the past and I hear the systems a fair amount.
If I recall, your previous system was a Pro Logic system -- 5.1 is a COMPLETELY different animal. If all you're hearing is "the tizz of a speaker" then the system was not correctly setup. Like I said before, the surround envelopment with a two-speaker setup is a random event, and with a properly setup 5.1 system, it's by design.
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Originally Posted by RGA
Part of this is because my listening chair is very close to a rear wall and this may not work as well in an open space - if your nowhere near a reflecting wall for a start you may not get any rear affect and definitely need a rear speaker.
I'm not saying that two channel is BETTER for rear effects but in my room with my gear you DO get rear effects that totally sound as though you are immersed in a surround sound system. It may not be as good but then it is also free.
The other thing to keep in mind is that some 5.1 soundtracks have a lot more delay built in between the front and surround channels to impart a greater sense of space during 5.1 playback. During the two-channel mixdown, this added delay blends into the L/LS and R/RS channels and can create a distortion that makes the sound more bloated but adds some spaciousness.
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Originally Posted by RGA
I was talking about SACD and DVDA - not multichannel movies. Obviously movies are very popular forcing many high end stores on board. SACD is another matter and I did say in Vancouver Canada - how popular it is selling in California may be another issue - but the SOny Stores here don't cary any SACD models. HifiTommy bought a bargooon SACD DVD all in one player real cheap - that model here was a low $219.00Cdn. I have the new SONY Canada catalog and there are no cheap SACD modesl sold at all. There is a 400 disc player that is also SACD at $800.00 and the SACD ES players. No SACD players are sold at any of the big box chains and no store other than A&B sound sells ANY of the music. A&B sounds carries one shelf worth of SACD and DVDA - about 50 titles total - and for all I know there are 5 copies - so not a true 50 different titles.
I wasn't sure because you mentioned down further in your post that you were mostly referring to movies. On SACD, it's not just California -- EVERY Best Buy location has added a separate section for SACD and DVD-A, and they all sell the Pioneer DV-563, which is a $150 universal player.
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Originally Posted by RGA
Commercial Electronics in Vancouver is a professional High end dealership that does home installations for surround sound...I have heard it well set-up there - they are also the largest Bryston dealer in the world - including their H/T set-ups with one very impressive room with top flight JM Labs surround sound.
Next time you're down there, check the surround speaker alignment. If they're using direct firing surround speakers and doing movie demos, then they should be elevated at least 1' above ear level and pointed directly at one another. (Only with certain multichannel music mixes will it sound right with the speakers pointed directly into the listening position) With dipolar surrounds, there's more flexibility with the height, but the ear has to be aligned with the null spot on the dipoles. I've ventured into plenty of high end dealers (some of which carry Bryston, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Theta, and Sherbourne, among others) that did not have the speakers in the surround demo correctly positioned. In fact, only two dealers had a placement mark on the floor that was close to the ITU reference alignment, along with stands tall enough to follow the Dolby surround speaker guidelines.
With the correct alignment, a surround system should not only give you the side-to-side imaging, but it should also dramatically increase the depth perception compared to two-channel playback, and the directional cues can not only convey location but the size of the space as well. "Master and Commander" has numerous scenes where you literally feel hemmed in below deck, and others where you can sense the big space of open sea. There's no wow factor here, just conveying a sense of space that doesn't happen with two-channel mixdown playback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Comparing 2 channel to mono versus surround to stereo is stupid. I have heard surround sound music well set-up in well-appointed rooms with the same discs and that is a ridiculous comparison. Even with the mega prices at Commercial electronics on SACD the same albums did not justify its price in my view.
Not really. To me, the jump between two-channel to 5.1 is every bit as dramatic as the step between mono and stereo. With a properly setup 5.1 system, the sound environment can take on a completely new dimension, especially with newer albums that were recorded specifically with multichannel in mind (Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go" is a well mixed disc that conveys some of the best side imaging and depth that I've ever heard). Like I said, are you sure that those "well-appointed" rooms were correctly setup?
And with all the new SACD hybrids that have come out in the past year (e.g. check the remastered version of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, that's a SACD/CD hybrid that sells for the same price as a regular CD), along with Sony's price rollbacks on two-channel SACDs and Warner's DVD-A price cuts last year, the price difference is negligible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
You can blast 2 channel all you want but if my choice is between 2 channel Audio Note or five channel Paradigm it is simply no contest to me - and I know your stance is the opposite - you can't live without the effects of surround sound music and movies and I can't live the physical sound of the Paradigm speakers - they can integrate perfectly for all I care - but they fatigue me - so 5 of them will just fatigue me faster.
I'm not blasting two-channel at all. With two-channel sources, I listen to them in two-channel. However at the same time, I also think that playing back 5.1 sources in two-channel is a fundamentally flawed approach. That mixdown process is no better than the randomness that DSP effects have on two-channel music. If the Paradigms fatigue you, there are plenty of other options at the $2,000 price point. I don't buy into the notion that everything below those Audio Notes is unacceptable for normal listening, and that the choice to go with multichannel means that you're settling for crappy speakers all around. $2,000, even for five speakers, is a lot of money to invest in a system, and probably more budget for speakers than 90% of the population will spend in a lifetime (Paradigm's own consumer research indicates that about that percentage of consumers will never even spend $500 on a pair of speakers), so keep that in perspective.
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Back to Topic?
So anyways.....
Anyone in here actually hear the paradigm HTIB? How about NHT? Onecall has a setup with superones, superzeros, and supercenter with a sub for pretty cheap. Can anyone recommend these?
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Woochifer
Don't have a problem with what you're saying. Though just because most people do something like not spend more than X dollars doesn't mean much to me - not sure what you're argument is meant to imply. Most people don't own a Ferrari but it goes faster than a Cavelier and most car guys would rather a Ferrari if they had the money no? I would and I'm not a car guy.
Commercial if I remember correctly had two different sets of rears set up - some sort of dipole as well as the same speakers as the fronts in the back - presumably to switch - They also had a set-up chart - presumably to show customers how to set-it up at home. Front projector over 20k with remote controlled screen - side speakers of course.
I used the Sugden with the Wharfedales and the Marantz so I'm aware of the differences - the marantz has that Car stock stereo kind of bass and grainier but for movies it's fine. The Wharfedales were not exactly junk as back in the late 80s it was their flagship model. I posted the spec on hte back of the speaker - in room response is considerably lower - I had a Boston Acoustics SW 10a 10 inch long throw powered sub with 24db rolloff - that basically didn't add bass so I got rid of it. I have the set-up guide for home theater - the trick is going to match a speaker to the Wharfedale horns. Klipsh is not a good match because Klipsch sounds a bit honky. So I will be forced to do what UHF did and buy a non same brand - so a relatively easy going speaker will likely have to do.
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Well the topic of WalMart and cheap surround systems came up earlier in this thread. I was in our local WalMart yesterday and on my way to do a little digging through the 2/$11 DVD bin I saw a "Surround System" for $55. DVD / Amp / "sub" and 5 sats, all for $55. Can you imagine what that must sound like?
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On the Paradigm HTIB, it looks like nothing more than a relabeling of their Cinema series package. (last time I checked, it sold for around $800, which is in line with similar offerings from Boston, KEF, Klipsch, Polk, and Energy, among others) I'm not even sure I would call it a HTIB, given that packages going by that title typically include a DVD player and/or receiver or integrated unit.
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IC, I was at a dealer and listened to a Cinema 90 setup and I liked it for movies, didnt try music on it though. He said a setup with Atoms would cost about the same, so I'm thinking of going that route.
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