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  1. #1
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    next step: speakers vs. amp?

    I just ordered a cambridge 640c v.1 over the weekend to replace the jvc dvd player I was using a source for my paradigm studio20s, but I eventually want to replace them with a better monitor style speaker, most likely the tyler taylo reference monitor. I am wondering if I want to get the biggest improvement in sound in my system, should I focus on the speakers, or my amp, right now I have a yamaha 70 surround reciever? Wondering which change would make the bigger difference, if if matters I am considering jolida hybrid integrateds for when I am able to upgrade the amp. Not sure when this could happen, but am curious. Thanks for all ideas.

  2. #2
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Most likely changing the speakers will make the biggest difference in your system versus pretty much any other compnent I can think of.

    The Tylers are a good match for the Jolida hybrids, btw. Something to look forward to. :-)

    ---Dave
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  3. #3
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    Funnyhat. Checkout SEAS Thor's kit http://www.madisound.com/pdf/Kits/seaskits.pdf you can save thousands and IMO the Thor's are better than the Tyler Taylo's. They use the same SEAS Excel speakers. If you have the knowhow to build a speaker cabinet then this would be the way to go. It took me three days to build and I took my time only spending a couple of hours here and a couple of hours there. Even if you had to buy all new tools you still save thousands and you'll have a whole new tool set for free left over or you can take them back when you are done. I bought the De Walt Combo Tool Kit and decided to keep the tools. De Walt offers a 90 day return policy. You can purchase the kit at www.madisound.com or www.zalytron.com with or without the cabinets.
    Dude they are awesome speakers! Unbelievable bass and accurate mids and highs.
    Outlaw Audio: Model 990 Preamp/Processor
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  4. #4
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    And with the money you saved you can buy an awesome amp to go with your awesome speakers.
    Outlaw Audio: Model 990 Preamp/Processor
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    SEAS: Excel Thor Main Speakers
    SEAS: Excel Froy Mk3 Center Speaker
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  5. #5
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    Check out my recent posts at SEAS Thor's Complete and How much bass is to much? <_<
    Funnyhat, If you have any questions or would like to know some tips or how to's then let me know.
    Last edited by emack27; 07-03-2006 at 02:26 PM.
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  6. #6
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    the CA 640C CD player is a bright sounding player. be very careful with the speaker and amp that you will be pairing with it or else you might get constant fatigue when listening at long periods of time. your paradigm speakers are not matched with the CA since this would produce a very fatiguing sound. im not sure with the jolida and the tyler but i hope they have the duller characteristic which could tame the CA's brightness overall. i know danish made speakers sounds duller, why not try out some dynaudios for your CA.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the ideas so far. Not sure how I feel about DIY, as I have no experience, but I will keep it in mind. Regarding that, although the kits are definitely cheaper than assembled speakers with the same components, how much of a factor is the crossover adjustments and other finetuning that speaker makers know how to do, but I obviously don't? Back to the original question, if I were to invest in speakers such as the Tyler's, would the Yamaha be too weak in the chain to show at least most of what those speakers can do? Also, should I be concerned if that cambridge 640 is that bright if I will be probably using it with the Paradigms for a while? All ideas appreciated!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyhat
    how much of a factor is the crossover adjustments and other finetuning that speaker makers know how to do, but I obviously don't?
    Building a crossover is not required. The crossover comes with the kit fully assembled. All you have to do is solder the speaker wires to the crossover. As far as finetuning goes these speakers have been tested, listened to and researched for their optimum crossover frequencies. There are however some options to you in the quality of the parts that go in the crossovers. I'de choose the highest quality components in the crossovers.
    You have the option of purchasing fully assembled cabinets in which all you'de have to do is solder the speaker wires to the crossovers and the drivers, mount the speakers in the pre-cut speaker openings, mount the speaker wire terminals and stuff the cabinet with poly-fill. How easy is that? And you save literally thousands of dollars. But if money is no object then by all means waste it on the Tylers.
    Since I have a little experience with wood working I'de thought I'de save a couple hundred more by building my own cabinets. As it appears you are not inclined to construct the speaker cabinets yourself. In this case I would not reccomend that you attempt to do this. You also have the option of paying a local cabinet builder to construct the cabinets using the speaker dimensions given at SEAS's website. Which would probably be cheaper than having the speaker kit supplier build and then ship them to you.
    These are just some options I'de thought I'de tell you about.
    IMO, If I were in your shoes I"de purchase the kit with assembled cabinets from www.zalytron.com. The kit uses 1.5" thick cabinets. It will cost you about $2000 + or - depending on shipping costs but is still about half as cheap as the Tyler's.
    Outlaw Audio: Model 990 Preamp/Processor
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  9. #9
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    Funnyhat, Where do you live?
    I thought if you lived close to Las Vegas maybe you could demo my Thor's and if you liked them over the Tyler's (in which case I know you will) maybe I could build you a pair for what the Tyler's are selling for.
    I'll even throw in free shipping and your choice of veneer finish.
    Outlaw Audio: Model 990 Preamp/Processor
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  10. #10
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emack27
    As far as finetuning goes these speakers have been tested, listened to and researched for their optimum crossover frequencies. And you save literally thousands of dollars. But if money is no object then by all means waste it on the Tylers.
    Which would probably be cheaper than having the speaker kit supplier build and then ship them to you.
    These are just some options I'de thought I'de tell you about.
    IMO, If I were in your shoes I"de purchase the kit with assembled cabinets from www.zalytron.com. The kit uses 1.5" thick cabinets. It will cost you about $2000 + or - depending on shipping costs but is still about half as cheap as the Tyler's.
    First off, the Tylers do not sound the same as the kit, and they are not the same design. The drivers of the floorstanding Tyler Taylo 7U (swapping in the SEAS Millenium tweeter for the Scanspeak Revelator which is a free option as it costs less) is a similar design, and it uses the same drivers, but the crossover and cabinet are completely different. Look at the dimensions, volume ratios and speaker weights (for example the 7Us weigh 95 pounds each versus 65 for each Thor). Ty also tweaks his crossover a particular way (his speakers tend to be on the warm side, but do not lose detail)... as such the two speakers have a very different sound as they are voiced differently and use different internal components in different cabinets.

    Also, I don't know where you are getting the "saving thousands..." remark. The 7Us sell for $2800 new (what Ty actually sells them for) with 1 inch thick fully veneered fine-furniture grade finished cabinets on all sides in a variety of finish choices for no extra charge. At Madisound.com, the Thors in unassembled form sell for $1865 in 3/4 inch thick partially Oak wood veneered standard cabinets with the "premium crossover" kit that still has lesser crossover components and wiring than the 7Us (Ty can verify this if you ask him). To me, that is not even close to the savings you imply. There are indeed some savings to be had by building it yourself, and as a DIYer myself who loves Zalytron and Madisound, and has built speakers before (from Zalytron, no less), I am a firm proponent of the exercise. That said, you are not getting the same product, so you have to be careful about making incorrect general statements like "wasting money" and "saving thousands."

    If the comparison of the Thors is to the Taylo Reference Monitors, they sell new for $1600 and are different speakers than the Thors completely. The Reference Monitors are *mini-monitors*, which are a better fit than the Thors (or 7Us for that matter) for the 10X10 room they are presumably going in IMO (as per Funnyhat's prior thread).

    All of this said, I am not putting down the SEAS Odin or Thor kits, as I believe they offer incredible value, and I like the sound of both... They just are *not* the same as Tylers (except the drivers in some cases), and I would rather have the Tylers personally... I don't think either direction is a waste of money... Rather I think they are both smart moves... it is just a matter of which end sound the poster is looking for.

    ---Dave
    Last edited by drseid; 07-04-2006 at 01:55 AM.
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  11. #11
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accastil
    the CA 640C CD player is a bright sounding player. be very careful with the speaker and amp that you will be pairing with it or else you might get constant fatigue when listening at long periods of time. your paradigm speakers are not matched with the CA since this would produce a very fatiguing sound. im not sure with the jolida and the tyler but i hope they have the duller characteristic which could tame the CA's brightness overall. i know danish made speakers sounds duller, why not try out some dynaudios for your CA.

    This is a very good point.... Both the Tylers and Jolida have warm characters... The Jolida is a tube hybrid integrated amp. I will say that the Tylers will definitely reveal the character of any electronics driving them (and as such proper component matching is critical), but I think once the Jolida is in the chain later on, it will tame the CA player's brightish nature a bit.

    ---Dave
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  12. #12
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyhat
    Back to the original question, if I were to invest in speakers such as the Tyler's, would the Yamaha be too weak in the chain to show at least most of what those speakers can do?
    There is no question in my mind that the Yamaha will not get you the best of what the Tylers can offer... That said, when building a system one component at a time, you have to start somewhere... In the meantime, you can have 70-80% of the Tylers true potential performance while waiting to upgrade to the Jolida later when you can afford it. The Jolida on the other hand, while a good match for your Paradigms, will still not give you as much of an upgrade as the Tyler swap (even in sub-optimal conditions) IMO.

    ---Dave
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  13. #13
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    Hey look drseid. All I'm saying is here are some options.
    The most critical debate lies within funnyhat.
    The choice for me was simple as is for most people here and it's about getting the most out of your money.
    I believe that I got a considerable amount for my money.
    Build costs for the Thor's using 1" MDF plus a brand new set of power tools=$2300
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  14. #14
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emack27
    Hey look drseid. All I'm saying is here are some options.
    The most critical debate lies within funnyhat.
    The choice for me was simple as is for most people here and it's about getting the most out of your money.
    I believe that I got a considerable amount for my money.
    Yes, there are certainly options, and the Thors (and many other speakers) are one -- that goes without saying. As for getting the most value for the money, I too look to do that and I am a firm believer the Tylers offer just that. That said, I am not implying that I think you got any less of a deal by going the DIY route with the Thors and the Odins. I love them both! They don't really sound like Tylers, but they are superb speakers in their own right. I agree 100% that they are a superb value for the money.

    My gripe was with your misinformation about speaker costs and components, not with your choice.

    Happy listening,

    ---Dave
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  15. #15
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    drseid, the speaker weights have nothng to do with anything. The Thor's weigh differently depending on how thick of MDF you use. Since the Thor's use a TL desgn there is probably less material inside the cabinets. Zalytron uses 1.5" thick MDF which would probably weigh more than the Taylo's.
    I went to Tyler's website and saw that the Taylo's sell for $3,250 minus shipping with premium finishes and upgrades are extra. Shipping must be atleast $100-200.
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  16. #16
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emack27
    drseid, the speaker weights have nothng to do with anything. The Thor's weigh differently depending on how thick of MDF you use. Since the Thor's use a TL desgn there is probably less material inside the cabinets. Zalytron uses 1.5" thick MDF which would probably weigh more than the Taylo's.
    I went to Tyler's website and saw that the Taylo's sell for $3,250 minus shipping with premium finishes and upgrades are extra. Shipping must be atleast $100-200.
    Actually that is not the real selling price. The $2800/pr. price is the correct one. Shipping for the 7Us probably is indeed about $100... as my Signature System pair was $150 via BAX Global -- and they each weigh 155 pounds... The weight of the speakers BTW is not as important as the crossover components used. Again, I know what components are used as I own them. As for the finishes, yes, there are premium finishes available, but there are plenty of standard ones to choose from (including finishes like ribbon mahogany). I confess I did go with a premium Rosewood finish on all my speakers, however.

    ---Dave
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  17. #17
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    drseid, I declare a truce.
    We should be congratulating each other for choosing to own really awesome speakers.
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  18. #18
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emack27
    drseid, I declare a truce.
    We should be congratulating each other for choosing to own really awesome speakers.
    Agreed. :-)

    ---Dave
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  19. #19
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    regarding room size, I am wondering if I estimated incorrectly, the set up of my room forces me to have my speakers 5 feet away from each other, and I sit about 10 feet from them, but the actually size of the room is 15X15. Which of these dimensions are more relevent for determining the size of speaker the room can handle, and does the 15X15 open up any possibilities for larger speakers? Thanks for any advice.

  20. #20
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyhat
    regarding room size, I am wondering if I estimated incorrectly, the set up of my room forces me to have my speakers 5 feet away from each other, and I sit about 10 feet from them, but the actually size of the room is 15X15. Which of these dimensions are more relevent for determining the size of speaker the room can handle, and does the 15X15 open up any possibilities for larger speakers? Thanks for any advice.
    All of those dimensions are helpful.... and yes, 15X15 opens up a whole slew of other possibilities. The Linbrook System II would be a very good fit for a room that size, for example.

    ---Dave
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  21. #21
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    I have been intrigued by reading about the system 2 as well as the review of the system 2 in absolute sound, but have never heard them. Has anyone heard them that has any feedback on their sound?

  22. #22
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyhat
    I have been intrigued by reading about the system 2 as well as the review of the system 2 in absolute sound, but have never heard them. Has anyone heard them that has any feedback on their sound?
    I would recommend you read my review of the original Linbrook System on this page http://audioreview.com/mfr/tyler-aco...8_1594crx.aspx (it is the second review down).

    I have heard the System II and it sounds like my review description with the exception that it does not go as low (low thirties, as opposed to the low to mid twenties of the original), and it has a bit less midrange/midbass integration than the original. I would say you get about 90% of the performance of the originals overall.

    ---Dave
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  23. #23
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    I'm surprised you guys feel the Cambridge is a bright sounding cdp. I feel exactly opposite, which is why I bought it over competing NAD, Rotel, and Denon CDP's. My Missions are bright speakers...with semi-ellipse horn loaded tweets, there is simply no way around this fact. Because of this, I needed a warm sounding front end. The CA's are exactly that and nicely tame any residual brightness to the speaks. The latest TAS supports this view in their review.

    I've got this thing on for 10-12 hours a day so if there was any fatigue involved, trust me I would know!

    BTW, Funnyhat:

    Without question, speaker will make a far more drastic difference in perceived sound than amplification.
    Last edited by topspeed; 07-05-2006 at 01:06 PM.

  24. #24
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    Thanks for the info, I was worried that I might regret getting the cambridge if it is bright, but maybe that is not the case? Also, Drseid, I read your review of the Linbrooks and you mentioned that you initially used the taylos with the titan sub for low frequency extension. Could you tell me how that worked out, especially in terms of integration. I listen to classical mainly, so I want to have as close to full range as possible, but would also like to stay as budget minded as I can. I guess my question is how obvious is the difference between a bookshelf with a sub (even hifi quality), and a full range floorstander? Again, thanks for all the tips and info!

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyhat
    Thanks for the ideas so far. Not sure how I feel about DIY, as I have no experience, but I will keep it in mind. Regarding that, although the kits are definitely cheaper than assembled speakers with the same components, how much of a factor is the crossover adjustments and other finetuning that speaker makers know how to do, but I obviously don't? Back to the original question, if I were to invest in speakers such as the Tyler's, would the Yamaha be too weak in the chain to show at least most of what those speakers can do? Also, should I be concerned if that cambridge 640 is that bright if I will be probably using it with the Paradigms for a while? All ideas appreciated!
    In choosing between a speaker and an amp upgrade, remember that the speaker will undeniably give you the biggest difference in the tonal characteristics simply because all speakers have measurable frequency deviations of some kind. So, I'm with the others that recommend that you look to the speaker upgrade first.

    However, just as all speakers have frequency deviations that set them apart from one another, speakers will also vary in how much of a load they put on an amplifer. Your choice in speaker very well could force you into an amplifier upgrade, depending on which one you go with. So, I'm not so sure that your choice is quite as clear cut as one versus the other.

    The Paradigm Studio series that you use right now is not a particularly difficult load, and while it does benefit somewhat from better amplification, it will work fine with a home theater receiver in a multichannel setup. Conversely, less efficient and low impedance speakers like the Dynaudios can create problems with a surround receiver (Yamaha receivers can handle low impedance loads, but only if you power up one pair at a time).
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