Newbie Needs Help w/HT

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  • 06-25-2004, 10:55 AM
    pattersn
    Newbie Needs Help w/HT
    I've just taken the plunge & bought these from a HT system:

    Denon AVR-2805
    Denon DVD-1200
    Denon DCM-380
    Paradigm Mini-Monitors (front)
    Paradigm CC-370 (center)
    Paradigm Cinema ADP (surrounds)
    Paradigm PDR-10 (subwoofer)

    I chose these speakers based on considerable time spent listening to them, but not all of them together in the same place at the same time. My questions:

    1. Will these Cinema ADP's do a good job in a 12x15 room considering an old fogie's tastes for moderate sound levels and accuracy over loud? (A compromise based on budgetary concerns & wife's objections to anything larger...the fronts & center will hide in a huge 11" wall unit).

    2. I got 12 awg speaker wire from Home depot...overkill, or would 14 awg be as good for the Cinema ADP's?

    I would appreciate your thoughts & experiences regarding my choices.
  • 06-25-2004, 02:58 PM
    markw
    A little late to be asking, wouldn't you say?
    The speakers should do fine, assuming you like the sound of 'em. Take your time placingh them for the best sound though. Speakers generally sound best where they look the worst.

    12 gauge is fine. No overkill at all. ...as long as you didn't spend a fortune on 'em, that is.

    FWIW, I love my 2802.
  • 06-25-2004, 04:10 PM
    cam
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pattersn
    I've just taken the plunge & bought these from a HT system:

    Denon AVR-2805
    Denon DVD-1200
    Denon DCM-380
    Paradigm Mini-Monitors (front)
    Paradigm CC-370 (center)
    Paradigm Cinema ADP (surrounds)
    Paradigm PDR-10 (subwoofer)

    I chose these speakers based on considerable time spent listening to them, but not all of them together in the same place at the same time. My questions:

    1. Will these Cinema ADP's do a good job in a 12x15 room considering an old fogie's tastes for moderate sound levels and accuracy over loud? (A compromise based on budgetary concerns & wife's objections to anything larger...the fronts & center will hide in a huge 11" wall unit).

    2. I got 12 awg speaker wire from Home depot...overkill, or would 14 awg be as good for the Cinema ADP's?

    I would appreciate your thoughts & experiences regarding my choices.

    There is one weak link in your system. Those Cinema ADP's. First of all they are not as efficient as your center and mains which means you will have to drive them harder to match. Secondly, if you plan on crossing over all your speakers at 80 hz which you should aim for there will be a gap in your adp's because they will not be able to go down to 80 hz with any volume at all. The Cinema ADP's will not fill a 12 x 15 room even with your old fogie ears. Trust me when I tell you this, get the ADP 170's. These will shine with your Denon 2805 and your center, mains and sub choice. Alot of people would even go to say that you MUST buy the ADP 370's but trust me the ADP 170's will supply you with a wonderfull surround sound experience as long as you know where to locate them properly in your room.
  • 06-25-2004, 05:56 PM
    pattersn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cam
    There is one weak link in your system. Those Cinema ADP's. First of all they are not as efficient as your center and mains which means you will have to drive them harder to match. Secondly, if you plan on crossing over all your speakers at 80 hz which you should aim for there will be a gap in your adp's because they will not be able to go down to 80 hz with any volume at all. The Cinema ADP's will not fill a 12 x 15 room even with your old fogie ears. Trust me when I tell you this, get the ADP 170's. These will shine with your Denon 2805 and your center, mains and sub choice. Alot of people would even go to say that you MUST buy the ADP 370's but trust me the ADP 170's will supply you with a wonderfull surround sound experience as long as you know where to locate them properly in your room.

    OK - - - You're confirming my suspicions about the Cinema ADP surrounds, which I hope Audio Buys will take back and let me upgrade to the ADP 170s.

    The seating in our 12x15 room is all the way back of the long dimension. I plan to mount the surrounds on the sides a foot or so from the rear wall and about 6 or 7 feet up from the floor. I'll use the swivel brackets and experiment with aiming them slightly down and towards the center of the room. From the sketches I've seen of similar placements, this should do best with these dipole speakers.

    Any thoughts on this matter?
  • 06-25-2004, 06:55 PM
    cam
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pattersn
    OK - - - You're confirming my suspicions about the Cinema ADP surrounds, which I hope Audio Buys will take back and let me upgrade to the ADP 170s.

    The seating in our 12x15 room is all the way back of the long dimension. I plan to mount the surrounds on the sides a foot or so from the rear wall and about 6 or 7 feet up from the floor. I'll use the swivel brackets and experiment with aiming them slightly down and towards the center of the room. From the sketches I've seen of similar placements, this should do best with these dipole speakers.

    Any thoughts on this matter?

    All paradigm dealers that I have dealt with will always take back current products as long as it is still current. If it is a older model they will still trade but at a discount from what you paid. Now placement could be trickey. With dipole speakers you will not need a swivel bracket, but if you feel the need go ahead. Make sure that you place the center of the speaker box centered with your head at your seated position.If you have to deviate from a centered position from your head at your seated position you can but I recomend no more then 1 foot forward or behind. You mentioned mounting them 1 foot from the rear wall which in your situation sounds right but you may also want to try setting them up temperaraly on the back corners evenly on your walls so they are no more on the side wall as the back wall if you understand what I mean. It to your ears may sound better. When you are setting up your receiver, your distance that you put into your receiver for your surround speakers should be measured from the center of the speaker box to your ears not the speaker or any distance of a reflecting wall to your ears. If the dipole speaker fails to give the theater like experience you are striving for I suggest buying a set of mini monitors for you surrounds. If that is the case put them on stands at or near ear level and aim them at each other on your back wall. I hope you understand everything I have said.
  • 06-25-2004, 07:40 PM
    N. Abstentia
    I would take the Cinema surrounds back and at least get some Atoms. The improvement will be major. Personally I wouldn't get the dipoles, I don't like the 'diffused' sound. Just sounds too fake to me.
  • 06-26-2004, 04:30 AM
    kexodusc
    I'm with N. Abstentia on this one, I've been in only a few rooms where I actually thought dipoles sounded better than direct firing speakers. Large rooms that were considerably wider than they were long. In most applications, they've sounded to busy for my liking. For the cost, it's a no-brainer...you could easily buy mini-monitors for rears and be way better off.
    Failing to do that, go with Atoms or Titans or something.
  • 06-26-2004, 01:32 PM
    pattersn
    OK - - - I took back the Cinema ADPs and got the ADP-170s (got full cedit for the Cinemas!).

    I'm not sure which way is best to mount the ADP-170s:

    1. Either on the back walls about two feet from the side walls and about 4 feet up from the floor.

    2. Or on the side walls about 1.5 feet from the rear and, again, about 4 feet up.

    What do you think?

    Also, in about a year or so when we've moved to our retirement home, I'll place these as surrounds on the side walls and add a pair of CS-150 in-wall speakers on the rear walls in a 7:1 setup. The CS-150 appears to be equivalent to a Mini-Monitor but in an in-wall enclosure. At that time I will have almost $7k in HT what with the AVR-2805, DVD-1200, DCM-380, DRW-585, and DRM-740 Denons, the 43" Samsung DLP TV and the various Paradigms. By God, that should do it!
  • 06-26-2004, 05:48 PM
    cam
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pattersn
    OK - - - I took back the Cinema ADPs and got the ADP-170s (got full cedit for the Cinemas!).

    I'm not sure which way is best to mount the ADP-170s:

    1. Either on the back walls about two feet from the side walls and about 4 feet up from the floor.

    2. Or on the side walls about 1.5 feet from the rear and, again, about 4 feet up.

    What do you think?

    Also, in about a year or so when we've moved to our retirement home, I'll place these as surrounds on the side walls and add a pair of CS-150 in-wall speakers on the rear walls in a 7:1 setup. The CS-150 appears to be equivalent to a Mini-Monitor but in an in-wall enclosure. At that time I will have almost $7k in HT what with the AVR-2805, DVD-1200, DCM-380, DRW-585, and DRM-740 Denons, the 43" Samsung DLP TV and the various Paradigms. By God, that should do it!

    Option 2 is your only option. Dipole speakers work this way, the speaker facing forward is in phase and the rear speaker is out of phase, for these speakers to give the desired affect they must be on the side walls. Preferable centered with your head at your seated position. Make sure you put the left speaker on the left side and the right speaker on the right side, they will be marked with a L and R. It is very important not to switch them, the forward facing speaker must be the in-phase one. If you can get those speakers higher then 4 feet that would help greatly. Let us know how it works out.
  • 06-27-2004, 08:26 PM
    pattersn
    Surrounds Placed How High?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cam
    Option 2 is your only option. Dipole speakers work this way, the speaker facing forward is in phase and the rear speaker is out of phase, for these speakers to give the desired affect they must be on the side walls. Preferable centered with your head at your seated position. Make sure you put the left speaker on the left side and the right speaker on the right side, they will be marked with a L and R. It is very important not to switch them, the forward facing speaker must be the in-phase one. If you can get those speakers higher then 4 feet that would help greatly. Let us know how it works out.

    You know something - - - the salesperson stated I would be happier with the Paradign ADP-170 surrounds on the rear wall about 3 feet from the sides and 4 feet up from the floor, but at that point in time I had already paid and he probably just wanted me to leave so he could go on to the next customer, if you know what I mean.

    How much higher than 4 feet would you suggest? The room is 12' wide x 15' long, with two recliners at the rear of the long dimension and a couch along the right side almost in the middle of that wall. The front speakers are spaced 7.5 feet apart and 3 feet up from the floor, hiding in a large wall unit behind speaker cloth paneled doors. The center speaker is just over 5 feet up from the floor, also hiding behind a similar cloth paneled door.

    The room has a vaulted ceiling running from 8.5 feet high in the front and rear, going up to 10 feet in the center, so I could put them way up there, but I've read here not to place them any higher than a foot above my ears when seated - - -- - - so how high up and how far forward would you suggest? (keeping in mind that I have no rear speakers).
  • 06-27-2004, 09:00 PM
    cam
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pattersn
    You know something - - - the salesperson stated I would be happier with the Paradign ADP-170 surrounds on the rear wall about 3 feet from the sides and 4 feet up from the floor, but at that point in time I had already paid and he probably just wanted me to leave so he could go on to the next customer, if you know what I mean.

    How much higher than 4 feet would you suggest? The room is 12' wide x 15' long, with two recliners at the rear of the long dimension and a couch along the right side almost in the middle of that wall. The front speakers are spaced 7.5 feet apart and 3 feet up from the floor, hiding in a large wall unit behind speaker cloth paneled doors. The center speaker is just over 5 feet up from the floor, also hiding behind a similar cloth paneled door.

    The room has a vaulted ceiling running from 8.5 feet high in the front and rear, going up to 10 feet in the center, so I could put them way up there, but I've read here not to place them any higher than a foot above my ears when seated - - -- - - so how high up and how far forward would you suggest? (keeping in mind that I have no rear speakers).

    They absolutely have to be on the side walls with the in-phase speaker facing towards your tv. You can try them in the corners making a triangle with the side and back walls, but they should never be placed on the back walls. If they were bi-polar not di-polar then they could be put on the back wall. Now for the height, they could be placed on stands at ear level if you had restrictions from mounting them on the walls but it would not sound as good as it could be. I think they should actually be about 3 feet above ear level. 6 feet would be about optimal. I have the adp 370's, In my room I have 9 foot ceilings but I was forced to mount them at 7 feet because I had to clear a window. They sound awesome. Remember, before you start feeding wire permanently you might want to experiment. If you want to know everything possible about di-pole speakers post a question for Sir Terrence The Terrible. If mounting your adp's is just to much to do you could get some mini-monitors or titans and put them on stands in your back corners facing each other.