The "New England Sound" ........

[thekid]

With the recent addition of a pair of KLH-17's to my existing Genesis I and EPI 100's I think I have speakers from the Northeast pretty much covered. From what I can tell the speakers I have either directly or indirectly owe their characteristics to Henry Kloss. I have not owned any AR's or Advents but my guess is that since Henry Kloss had a hand in those speakers I would not hear dramatic differences between what I own and those brands but maybe others here would disagree.

I have heard there is a "California" or "West Coast" sound that is a bit different form the "New England" sound. How would owners of speakers that are considered "West Coast" describe the characteristics of their speakers? I am also wondering what speakers members here think best represents that sound. I do not need anymore speakers but I would be interested in seeing if I can come across and pick up any speakers recommended.

[Feanor]

With the recent addition of a pair of KLH-17's to my existing Genesis I and EPI 100's I think I have speakers from the Northeast pretty much covered. From what I can tell the speakers I have either directly or indirectly owe their characteristics to Henry Kloss. I have not owned any AR's or Advents but my guess is that since Henry Kloss had a hand in those speakers I would not hear dramatic differences between what I own and those brands but maybe others here would disagree.

I have heard there is a "California" or "West Coast" sound that is a bit different form the "New England" sound. How would owners of speakers that are considered "West Coast" describe the characteristics of their speakers? I am also wondering what speakers members here think best represents that sound. I do not need anymore speakers but I would be interested in seeing if I can come across and pick up any speakers recommended.

Many, many years ago I briefly flirted with the idea of buying a pair of JBL Lancer 77's. But before I collected the cash I head them compared with a pair of AR3a's that were obviously a more natural and transparent sound.

Nevertheless the forward, dynamic "West Coast" sound was popular with many. It is said that the JBL L100 or professional equivalent was a popular speaker among Rock recording engineers and producers. I would say that nice pair of L100's would be classic for any collector.
...

[Auricauricle]

I heard the term "California Sound" the first time in the mid '80's when my foray into Audioland was started in earnest. The characteristics of this sound were exemplified--like Bill's description above--by JBL's speakers (the L112's in particular): tight, crisp, rather puchy and, after awhile, pretty fatiguing.

So, hearing these criticisms, I took the best course of action: I bought a pair of Klipsch Heresies.

These were not quite as tight but were crisp, a bit more relaxed, and after awhile, fairly fatiguing...

Now I listen to Polk Monitor 7's and am very happy...

...and wonder if my esteemed friends and knowledgeable comrades were full of crap or if I should have spent more time making up my mind....

[thekid]

I heard the term "California Sound" the first time in the mid '80's when my foray into Audioland was started in earnest. The characteristics of this sound were exemplified--like Bill's description above--by JBL's speakers (the L112's in particular): tight, crisp, rather puchy and, after awhile, pretty fatiguing.

So, hearing these criticisms, I took the best course of action: I bought a pair of Klipsch Heresies.

These were not quite as tight but were crisp, a bit more relaxed, and after awhile, fairly fatiguing...

Now I listen to Polk Monitor 7's and am very happy...

...and wonder if my esteemed friends and knowledgeable comrades were full of crap or if I should have spent more time making up my mind....

I have read some positive things on JBL 100's. I am not sure what it says about JBL's or JBL owners but I do not really see much JBL in the thrift aisles or Polk for that matter.

[Worf101]

Wow are you preaching to the choir. I LOVE "the New England" sound. Some of the best sounding speakers I've owned have been from Epicure, Epi and AR. Now the west coast sound is more "forward" with it's larger drivers and more emphasis on bass, and high. "Boom Crash" is how some describe it. Good for dorm rooms, frat houses and some recording studios, but not my cuppa. Still some great speakers from out there if you know where and what to look for.
Sigh... with enough money and the right house I'd have dedicated 2 channel listening rooms for all sorts of sources, amps and speakers.

Da Worfster

[Auricauricle]

"Boom-crash" is an apt description....Like you, I like the more laid back types. I've been hankering for a pair of Tannoys (mebbe SRM's) to treat myself when I graduate. Until then, the Polks are pretty sweet!

Worf, when you get the "room" don't forget the remote control: You know, the twenty something year old who wears a bikini and is ready to fill your drink, run her hand through your hair and say sweet things like, "But this control doesn't go the eleven...."

[E-Stat]

I have not owned any AR's or Advents but my guess is that since Henry Kloss had a hand in those speakers I would not hear dramatic differences between what I own and those brands but maybe others here would disagree.

The voicing of similar KLH 20s I own is cut from the same cloth as my double Advents.

I have heard there is a "California" or "West Coast" sound that is a bit different form the "New England" sound.

A bit?

I'll ditto the feeling that the boosted mid bass and nasty 7 khz peak gets old quickly to these ears. Even if I wanted a highly EQed presentation, I'd rather do that electronically. Other examples came from Cerwin-Vega. Give me a neutral sounding speaker any day. Ironically, the far less popular JBL L-110 was such a neutral reproducer.

rw

[emaidel]

I fondly recall the days of the East Coast vs. West Coast sound battle, with AR and KLH the biggest players for the East, and JBL the onetime only player for the West. Oddly, KLH speakers had a considerably more "forward"presentation than their AR competitors, and it was this feature that Henry Kloss wanted in the first place while working at AR, that caused him to leave and create (along with two others) KLH. When comparing the AR-2ax to the KLH-6 (which were comparably priced) the KLH was a lot more lively and less distant and muted sounding, though nowhere near as "in your face" as was the sound of a JBL loudspeaker. The same could be said in a comparison to the AR-3 (not the "a" version) and the KLH-5. The KLH-5 had a good deal more presence in the midrange, and sounded a good deal more "musical" than the AR. (The KLH-5 actually used the same drivers as the much larger and costlier KLH-12, which, circa 1968, was one of the best speakers around then.)

The L-100 was a huge success, able to play very loud with little amplfier power, and its "studio monitor" equivalent, the 4311 sold quite well too. The L-110, part of a JBL lineup introduced in 1978 to try to be more "accurate," and less forward, was an unmitigated disaster. Not only did it not have the punch of an older L-100, but it had a horribly colored midrange which made some of the lackluster AR products sound a whole helluva lot better. The 3-piece L-112 was attractive, but far too expensive, and more "colored" than most other speakers near its price, and it too wasn't a sales success. I recall one of my JBL dealers purchasing a set, installing it in their showroom, and then packing it up and sending it back to JBL because they disliked its sound so much.

The KLH-17 was a less expensive version of the Model 6 using a 10" woofer instead of a 12, and in a smaller, but well crafted oiled walnut enclosure. At $79.95 each, they were quite a bargain at the time, but had a bit of a midrange depression. The KLH-20, the first genuine "hi-fi" so-called "compact" stereo, used a 4 ohm equivalent of the 17.

Ah, memories....

[E-Stat]

The L-110, part of a JBL lineup introduced in 1978 to try to be more "accurate," and less forward, was an unmitigated disaster. Not only did it not have the punch of an older L-100, but it had a horribly colored midrange which made some of the lackluster AR products sound a whole helluva lot better.

I've had the good fortune of meeting and spending an evening talking and listening to the system of an *inmate* from another forum. Business travel put me in his state and he graciously invited me over. He is a retired engineer, lover of Scotch, happens to have similar musical tastes and is an enthusiastic electronic tweaker. One true gem of wisdom he has always espoused is that of system synergy - many differences we hear between components relates to compatibility issues. Amen. He uses very carefully chosen, reasonably priced and good sounding gear. I wish he lived nearby - one can only communicate so much in posts like this over the 'net. The only reason I left was that it was two in the morning and I had a meeting six hours later. Oh well.

He has a number of speakers, including Advents and L-110s. Neither, however, is stock. The Advents are highly tailored with mirror imaged drivers, custom dowel-reinforced cabinets, new wiring, connectors and crossover components. They sound excellent. The L-110 has some mods including the use of an Advent woofer. I find them to be highly neutral sounding, a most pleasant surprise as compared with my experience with the L-100. I have a different complaint of the midrange: narrow dispersion. The tweeters are arguably better than the Advents with their great extension, but I was immediately struck with this weirdness: the image width curiously collapses with frequency as one travels downward from the top. While the Advents don't exactly radiate terribly far off axis, they are at least consistent and more coherent sounding across the full range - an important aspect to me.

The SL electrostats are sweet in that every one of the 4400 square inches radiates a full range signal. As you walk towards them, the sound does not change at all. Top to bottom, front to back or side to side you get the same signal no matter where you are relative to them. By comparison, either the Polk mini-monitors in the HT system or (especially) the double Advents in the garage require some distance for the drivers to blend seamlessly.

rw

[emesbee]

I've never heard of any of those terms. I've heard of "English sound", "US sound", "European sound" and "Japanese sound" (don't know if there is an "Australian sound"). I'm inclined to think its all a bit meaningless.

[emaidel]

For a very brief period in my career, I was a manufacturer's representative in Connecticut, and one of the lines my firm represented was JBL. I owned Dahlquist DQ-10's at the time (the very pair I still use today), and had several friends (all of whom were in the business at the time too) visiting when my partner lent me his sample pair of L-110's to listen to. He was convinced they were "deadly accurate" transducers, and that I'd find them quite satisfactory.

After playing some music on the DQ-10's, I disconnected them and connected the L-110's. Each and every one of us felt the L-110's sounded awful: little or no bass response, and excessive, highly colored midrange. Not a one of my dealers liked the speaker either.

I would have to assume that the speaker sounded as bad as it did due to the crosssover network, as all of the drivers, typical of any JBL speaker, were first rate units. JBL's sales pitch at the time was to graphically illustrate the advantages of cast aluminum baskets, and their flat-wire voice coils, attempting to point out that stamped baskets (such as those used on the Advent/DQ-10 woofers) would eventually sag, or do all sorts of other terrible things and eventually self-destruct. While that made for good ad copy, the proof of the pudding is that the "cheap" stamped baskets on my DQ-10 woofers have lasted now for 31 years, and were the basis of a complete rebuild by Regnar in NY a few years ago. Each and every other component of the driver has been replaced, but these baskets are still in perfect working order.

A "modified" L-110 may sound OK, but then it isn't any longer an L-110, but something altogether different.

[Worf101]

"Boom-crash" is an apt description....Like you, I like the more laid back types. I've been hankering for a pair of Tannoys (mebbe SRM's) to treat myself when I graduate. Until then, the Polks are pretty sweet!

Worf, when you get the "room" don't forget the remote control: You know, the twenty something year old who wears a bikini and is ready to fill your drink, run her hand through your hair and say sweet things like, "But this control doesn't go the eleven...."

Quiet, you WERE NOT supposed to put that in writing. Dang it, now you've jeapadized the entire operation. Years of intense research and development in secret labs throughout the world have been endangered. If womanhood were to learn of our ultimate remote, they would call out Oprah's Army and launch a preemptive strike. Silence Fool!!!!!

Da Worfster

[Worf101]

I've never heard of any of those terms. I've heard of "English sound", "US sound", "European sound" and "Japanese sound" (don't know if there is an "Australian sound"). I'm inclined to think its all a bit meaningless.

We're talking about speakers from a time when there was a big range in how companies attacked sound reproduction. A Klipsch did NOT sound like an Epicure which did not even resemble a JBL and lets not even discuss the Bose 901 Series One. The differences in sound reproduction were palpable and measurable. Not just a figment of folks' fevered imaginations.

Da Worfster

[thekid]

Well I broke down and bought a pair of Genesis 10's from the local thrift. They started out wanting $50 for them and as they sat awhile they then went down to $25. I asked if they'd take $10 and we settled on $15. Basically the same as the Genesis 1's that I have but slightly larger cabinets. It was just killing me seeing them sitting there on the floor waiting for some kid to scratchem or poke at the drivers. They need a refoam but the grills and cabinets are in very good shape.

Until I get a working camera to post pgots of these and the KLH-17's you can see what the 10's look like on the this link;

http://www.humanspeakers.com/genesis/gen10.htm

[thekid]

I got my hands on a camera and thought I'd update this thread with some pics.
Attached are pics of the KLH-17's and Genesis 10's I just picked up. Also attached is a pic of my recently re-foamed Genesis 1's. I am ordering the surrounds today for the Genesis 10's and the EPI 100's I picked up awhile back.

[Auricauricle]

So, Worf: Are you suggesting that speakers (manufactured today) are less idiosyncatic in terms of sound quality and that a correspondingly more "generic" product (aurally speaking) is more the norm?

Is this what's facing "the masses": to spend more money if they want to reap sonic benefit?

Pretty bleak.

[Worf101]

First, Kid, that is one schweeeeeeet vintage analog set up. I'm practically green wit envy and drooling with lust. Great bargain group of speakers.

Second

So, Worf: Are you suggesting that speakers (manufactured today) are less idiosyncatic in terms of sound quality and that a correspondingly more "generic" product (aurally speaking) is more the norm?

Is this what's facing "the masses": to spend more money if they want to reap sonic benefit?

Pretty bleak.

Yes, I am suggesting just that. Many of today's speakers are just a variation on the more WAFable, ported slim line floorstander with 5 to 8 inch drivers in them. Every company, large or small from Fluance to B&W makes a speaker like the one I detailed above. Of course differences exist in cabinetry, driver quality, crossover etc... but the basic designs are quite similar. Yest there are exceptions like Maggies and other sound solutions but these are few and far between.

Da Worfster

[thekid]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, Kid, that is one schweeeeeeet vintage analog set up. I'm practically green wit envy and drooling with lust. Great bargain group of speakers

Worf- Thanks I appreciate your feedback and others here as I pursue vintage midfi.....

[Auricauricle]

Man, that's a pretty grim indictment of the market, W. Of course there are manufacturing idiosyncracies and designs that are "unconventional" (for lack of a better term) like Magnepan's and the like are certainly offer sonic challenges. It sounds as though there's just not much in the way of innovation and development. Ya think any of this has to do with the current infatuation with portable music, vis-a-vis the Ipod (etc.) and a lack of interest in living-room listening or have we just reached creativity's point of stagnation?

It's sorta akin to Stradivarius being told to close shop and not bother coming back. Yamaha has moved into the neighborhood and his cheaper (crude word) and more readily available instruments will suit folks just fine.

Whew!

[Worf101]

Man, that's a pretty grim indictment of the market, W. Of course there are manufacturing idiosyncracies and designs that are "unconventional" (for lack of a better term) like Magnepan's and the like are certainly offer sonic challenges. It sounds as though there's just not much in the way of innovation and development. Ya think any of this has to do with the current infatuation with portable music, vis-a-vis the Ipod (etc.) and a lack of interest in living-room listening or have we just reached creativity's point of stagnation?

It's sorta akin to Stradivarius being told to close shop and not bother coming back. Yamaha has moved into the neighborhood and his cheaper (crude word) and more readily available instruments will suit folks just fine.

Whew!

Well you gotta understand. The audiophile will ALWAYS spend more to get exotic "different" speakers which may take a radically different approach to sound reproduction. But us midfiers, not to mention "the great unwashed", want decent sound at the lowest possible price. Couple this with the fact that you've only two ears, and those two inputs can only process sound in one way. You've got ear buds, headphones and speakers. Until someone comes up with an aureal implant, there's little progress that I can see left to be made in the transference of sound to the brain. I don't expect to see anything radically different than the slimline tower design for quite sometime.

Da Worfster

[Auricauricle]

If what you are saying is correct, then the manufacturers have no incentive at all to produce anything better than "decent".

While I agree with you in the sense that this (standard) may have broad appeal, I am congnizant of the fact--this forum alone bears this out--that there is a substantial population of folks who appreciate sound enough to want better. Mebbe the financial straits we're in is taking its toll, but something is driving the edge down. I hate to sound like the old man who says, "Ah, yes, I remember the good ol' days...", but, well....Ah, yes, I remember the good ol' days when you actually had to listen to the speakers before you bought them. I guess there's no reason to even bother spending top dollar or a little more: They all sound the same, anyway!

Gee, I'm gettin' sore....

[E-Stat]

The audiophile will ALWAYS spend more to get exotic "different" speakers which may take a radically different approach to sound reproduction.

And yet, all of the most expensive speakers in my experience ($100k+) are just variations of conventional cones 'n domes box speakers like Wilson, Kharma, Scaena, etc. Go figure.

rw

[Auricauricle]

Kind of nice that I don't have to aspire to much, soundwise (!)

[thekid]

And yet, all of the most expensive speakers in my experience ($100k+) are just variations of conventional cones 'n domes box speakers like Wilson, Kharma, Scaena, etc. Go figure.

rw

Well then I guess the $10 I spent on the KLH was a good choice.
It was either them or a $20,000 pair of Kef's.............

[Auricauricle]

That felt good!

Most of the gear that I have bought, recently, has either been acquired at a local pawn shop or the internet. I see no shame is saving a few pennies, this way, and if you have the sense and sensibility to discern what you like, you're doin' pretty good. I was luck to trade a second-hand Yammie preamp for the Polks I use now. As far as I reckon, they are the best speakers I have ever owned.....I'm just waiting for someone to throw a pair of Maggies or maybe a couple of Tannoy Winchesters (I can dream can't I?).