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  1. #1
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    My on going Von Schwiekert saga

    Don't know how many also check the boards at AA so I thought I'd cross post it here.
    Since this stems from a post on the Asylum, it may read a bit odd. This board doesn't seem to like a cut and paste from another forum, sorry it's so screwed up, I'll try to edit it quickly.

    There has been a very unfortunate development with my Audiogon purchase of the VR4 jr's. Since this latest problem is the result of my post here on the Asylum I felt compelled to post my thoughts here as well. It is my hope that things will get better as a result. My fear is that this will make things worse. As things stand now, it looks like a dealer, just trying to help a customer may end up losing the Von Schweikert line. Tough price to pay for offering service above and beyond anything that I've experienced from my area dealers over the years. To be complete and fair I'll start at the beginning so that there aren't any further misunderstandings.

    I wished to upgrade my speakers after 12 years. While auditioning one stop took me to an area dealer to listen to Revel and Dynaudio. Once there I realized he only carried the upper end models and nothing in the lines I was hoping to hear. Rather than waste the trip he showed me speakers by Triangle and Von Schweikert and another that were in my price range. Most impressive was the VR2 for about 2,400 new. He had said that we was going to carry the new Dynaudio Focus and would call me when it arrived. To date he never has called. No real big deal he was a nice guy but I include this as a recent example of the level of service I get around here, this is typical.

    When I got home I started reading about the VS line, since they were new to me. I researched, posted for opinions, and looked on Audiogon for some of the suggestions that had been given to me (other brands). While there I saw some of the VR 4 jr's at a price not too much more than the VR 2's. Of course they were used but some of these were so new that I was compelled to take a leap of faith and order a set of speakers without having laid eyes on them, let alone hearing them. The best part of the deal is that the seller had never even really taken possession of his speakers although he did use them at the dealer. The seller upgraded to something else costing twice a much and put the VR4's up for sale used. I bought them from the individual with a teller's check. The dealer in Conn. agreed to use his shipping connections to get them to me. With such a big item, this was an awesome and compelling bonus for me. As it turns out, it was the best decision I made in the process. The help and information started when I called to give him my address to ship to and it continues to this day. This dealer was gone out of his way for me, spending more time on this then any dealer would normally be willing based on my past experience. Remember, I'm not even really his customer, the seller is!

    DHL apparently lost one of the speakers since it is now 2 weeks overdue. I posted this fact and little story here only recently in the "Who Didn't Like The VR4 jr's thread. This is what caused the problem. The dealer called VS and asked for a letter to present the shipping company explaining how replacing one speaker wasn't really a viable option when dealing with matched sets. Apparently the Von Schwiekert folks saw my post and among other things, responded to the dealer that he made an internet sale and based on what I've learned, are considering pulling the line for breach of contract. This is incredibly sad to me knowing the problems this guy is dealing with as the result of helping 2 people, the original purchaser and myself. Just to be totally clear:
    1. I've never heard this speaker
    2. I bought this speaker from an individual not associated with the dealer in any way other than being a customer.
    3. The dealer shipped these speakers to me and to this day goes out of his way to make me happy.
    4. Von Schweikert seems to be considering pulling the line from this guy.

    There seems to be at least one individual here with decent connections to the folks at Von Schweikert. I don't know if there's anything you can do but maybe you could take up the case, if you agree with me of course. At the very least I hope that the same people at Von Schweikert who saw my original post are also taking the time to read this. It's already a bad situation and I would be crushed if legitimate, honest, and dedicated people were hurt because of this. In my personal opinion, this guy should be in the running for some type of customer service award rather than be penalized. After all, I didn't buy the speakers from him, and he's still going the extra mile when it looks like it may already be a marathon. At the very least, if you live in the Conn. area, I know of one dealer who will work to provide exceptional service and quality product. You are very fortunate.

    On the plus side, my used LCR 15 showed up. Also an audiogon purchase (through a completely different guy and shipping company!) It is my hope that someday soon I'll be listening to my new speakers. How much I am able to enjoy them will kind of depend on what the folks at VS do. I hope I've placed my faith in the right company.

    Thank you all for your time!

    Regards,
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  2. #2
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Well that sucks the big one

    I woudn't give up hope though. The speaker might have gotten routed someplace it shouldn't have, and it's very possible that it will turn up in a short time.

    I didn't know that VS dealers were prohibited from selling used speakers. Obviously if the dealer knew this he wouldn't have done it. Perhaps it's just a missunderstanding on VS's part.
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  3. #3
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I woudn't give up hope though. The speaker might have gotten routed someplace it shouldn't have, and it's very possible that it will turn up in a short time.

    I didn't know that VS dealers were prohibited from selling used speakers. Obviously if the dealer knew this he wouldn't have done it. Perhaps it's just a missunderstanding on VS's part.
    I hope it is a misunderstanding, I 'd hate to think this would cost the guy the entire line. If it does, well I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

    I don't think this was a simple routing problem though. There are no scans on the shipment at all. DHL has offered a number stories starting with-the guy never really shipped it (he has proof in the way of his weigh bill/airbill), to nationwide delay, and now I think they are starting to realize that they lost it and are looking to minimize their losses, as should be expected. It would be cool though if it were to just 'show up'.

    jc
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Obviously if the dealer knew this he wouldn't have done it. Perhaps it's just a missunderstanding on VS's part.
    Interesting story, but there may be another side to it. People intentionally breach contracts everyday. Usually for money.

    I obviously don't know the dealer from Adam, but their must have been something in it for him. Either a kickback, consignment arrangment, the sale of the more expensive replacement pair to the seller that he otherwise would not have sold. Anyway you slice it, the dealer sold the same set of speakers twice. Once to the orignal guy and once to Jim. And, I'll bet dollars to donuts that money, or at least value added, ended up in his pocket on each transaction. Even if Jim was buying from the directly seller and the dealer was simply holding and shipping them, the dealer is now orchestrating and servicing the transaction.

    Sometimes I think we forget how low volume many of these manufacturers are in the grand scheme of things. Many are dependant upon reputation. Look at the demise of the Dual and Sansui names for example. If I was VS I would be vigorously defending against such shenanigans too.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    I didn't read it that way at all...

    what I read is that the dealer DID gain...but not selling the same speaker twice...remember JC didn't pay the shop....they only shipped it too him.....and of course they gained...they sold two sets of speakers...to the same guy! (not Jim)

    you also say "even IF Jim was buying directly from the seller"???

    Stating such that tells me you don't believe Jim when he said (on at least two occasions) that it was a private sale...that also tells me you don't know Jim...which tells me your not speaking from a position of knowledge...which tells me...well...you get the picture.

    I say BROVO to the dealer!! damn hard to find a good "brick and mortar"!!! I'll let me VS dealer know and see if he can sneek in a good word!!...in fact I'll email them directly.

    Peace, Pogue






    Quote Originally Posted by SlumpBuster
    Interesting story, but there may be another side to it. People intentionally breach contracts everyday. Usually for money.

    I obviously don't know the dealer from Adam, but their must have been something in it for him. Either a kickback, consignment arrangment, the sale of the more expensive replacement pair to the seller that he otherwise would not have sold. Anyway you slice it, the dealer sold the same set of speakers twice. Once to the orignal guy and once to Jim. And, I'll bet dollars to donuts that money, or at least value added, ended up in his pocket on each transaction. Even if Jim was buying from the directly seller and the dealer was simply holding and shipping them, the dealer is now orchestrating and servicing the transaction.

    Sometimes I think we forget how low volume many of these manufacturers are in the grand scheme of things. Many are dependant upon reputation. Look at the demise of the Dual and Sansui names for example. If I was VS I would be vigorously defending against such shenanigans too.
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  6. #6
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    No, no. Don't get me wrong. I actually meant what you said. That at the very least the dealer benefitted by selling two pairs of speakers to the same guy. I further suggest that he may have benefited in an even more direct way that Jim may not be aware of. Change "if" to "though" and you get:
    "Even though Jim was buying from the directly seller and the dealer was simply holding and shipping them, the dealer is now orchestrating and servicing the transaction."

    I don't disbelieve Jim at all. I do believe that from his perspective it was a private sale. But, if it was truely a private sale, then the seller should have picked them up from the dealer and shipped them to Jim. Instead, the dealers shipping them, they're getting lost, he's asking VS to write letters of explanation, ect. What I'm suggesting is that VS may view it from a different perspective. If they say "No, internet sales." and the dealer services this "quasi" internet sale, and now the speakers are lost, and now VS is being asked to explain to DHL why they need to replace more than what they lost... All I'm suggesting is that from VS's perspective, this may leave them saying to themselves "This is precisely why we don't want to be doing internet sales."

    As for me not speaking from a position of knowledge, I fairly certain such a thing would never happen on an internet message board.

  7. #7
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Jeez Jim, that really sucks. I'm not sure what VS is ticked about. Restricting a dealer, or anybody else for that matter, from reselling their products is pretty moronic. How in the world could you possibly hope to police such a thing? Honestly, I don't even follow the logic as once someone gets a hold of their lower lines, chances are they will want to upgrade within the same marque. It's better to have their product in the hands of someone that wants them rather than someone that doesn't, no? You might try calling Kevin at VSA and explaining the situation. If nothing else, maybe you'll get some insight into their thinking on the matter.

    I'm unclear how VSA can help your cause with DHL. It sounds like DHL dropped the ball, but hopefully they'll find the speakers and you can finally enjoy your new toys. Keep us informed and good luck.

  8. #8
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    Sorry to hear about your problems. Is this dealer in HArtford by any chance? I was planning on ordering some VR1's from a dealer in HArtford who was exceptional to deal with, which is why i hope he doesnt lose the VS line because he went out of his way to call me and talk to me for a very long time about how good the VS speakers are.

  9. #9
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duds
    Sorry to hear about your problems. Is this dealer in HArtford by any chance? I was planning on ordering some VR1's from a dealer in HArtford who was exceptional to deal with, which is why i hope he doesnt lose the VS line because he went out of his way to call me and talk to me for a very long time about how good the VS speakers are.
    I don't have his explicit permission to post the name of his business online. I will however be happy to PM you with it!

    jc
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  10. #10
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Jeez Jim, that really sucks. I'm not sure what VS is ticked about. Restricting a dealer, or anybody else for that matter, from reselling their products is pretty moronic. How in the world could you possibly hope to police such a thing? Honestly, I don't even follow the logic as once someone gets a hold of their lower lines, chances are they will want to upgrade within the same marque. It's better to have their product in the hands of someone that wants them rather than someone that doesn't, no? You might try calling Kevin at VSA and explaining the situation. If nothing else, maybe you'll get some insight into their thinking on the matter.

    I'm unclear how VSA can help your cause with DHL. It sounds like DHL dropped the ball, but hopefully they'll find the speakers and you can finally enjoy your new toys. Keep us informed and good luck.
    VSA can help with DHL by telling them why they need to replace the pair of speakers. To begin with, the veneers on the VR4 jr's are book matched and that of course is reflected in the final cost of the speakers. I don't know about voice matching within a set with VS, they may or may not do it but a number of company's do. Not only do I want a set that look like a set, I want them to sound like one as well. Naturally DHL would prefer to replace only the one they lost. With that approach I don't even have complete assurance that they would be the same color, similar perhaps, but not certain color match if that makes sense. VSA could write a letter explaining this, or they could pass leaving me a set of mismatched speakers. This wouldn't be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

    Hope that makes sense.

    As relates to calling VSA, I've concluded that I bought a used pair of speakers from an individual and that this really isn't their problem. Of course I'd like to see them step up and offer exceptional service and I believe they will. They make the warranty transferable to a second owner (me) and I think that they will end up shining in the end.

    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  11. #11
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    I guess its just the way one looks at it..

    "But, if it was truely a private sale, then the seller should have picked them up from the dealer and shipped them to Jim"

    The second the first party payed for them...then sold them to Jim...it WAS a private sale...as to who shipped them...didn't change that (not in my eyes)

    I just think that in this situation the dealer and VS should look at the overall situation and not get caugh up in all the legal mumbo-jumbo. I realize the intent is to protect VS but in this particular situation...I think it's a bogus rap..... It's darn had to find good dealers...so I'm kinda a pro-dealer when ya find a good one.

    Pogue


    Quote Originally Posted by SlumpBuster
    No, no. Don't get me wrong. I actually meant what you said. That at the very least the dealer benefitted by selling two pairs of speakers to the same guy. I further suggest that he may have benefited in an even more direct way that Jim may not be aware of. Change "if" to "though" and you get:
    "Even though Jim was buying from the directly seller and the dealer was simply holding and shipping them, the dealer is now orchestrating and servicing the transaction."

    I don't disbelieve Jim at all. I do believe that from his perspective it was a private sale. . Instead, the dealers shipping them, they're getting lost, he's asking VS to write letters of explanation, ect. What I'm suggesting is that VS may view it from a different perspective. If they say "No, internet sales." and the dealer services this "quasi" internet sale, and now the speakers are lost, and now VS is being asked to explain to DHL why they need to replace more than what they lost... All I'm suggesting is that from VS's perspective, this may leave them saying to themselves "This is precisely why we don't want to be doing internet sales."

    As for me not speaking from a position of knowledge, I fairly certain such a thing would never happen on an internet message board.
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  12. #12
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    "Ahhh, I see...," said the blind man...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark
    VSA can help with DHL by telling them why they need to replace the pair of speakers. To begin with, the veneers on the VR4 jr's are book matched and that of course is reflected in the final cost of the speakers. I don't know about voice matching within a set with VS, they may or may not do it but a number of company's do. Not only do I want a set that look like a set, I want them to sound like one as well. Naturally DHL would prefer to replace only the one they lost. With that approach I don't even have complete assurance that they would be the same color, similar perhaps, but not certain color match if that makes sense. VSA could write a letter explaining this, or they could pass leaving me a set of mismatched speakers. This wouldn't be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

    Hope that makes sense.

    As relates to calling VSA, I've concluded that I bought a used pair of speakers from an individual and that this really isn't their problem. Of course I'd like to see them step up and offer exceptional service and I believe they will. They make the warranty transferable to a second owner (me) and I think that they will end up shining in the end.

    jc
    ...as he picked up his hammer and saw. That makes plenty 'o sense.

    You know, I wouldn't be at all surprised if VSA would write such a letter for you. Albert takes great pride in the fact that his speakers are matched and includes a signed FR graph with each speaker proving that they indeed are a matched pair. In fact, if they chose not to help you would be the surprising part!

    I'm confident everything will work out.

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