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  1. #1
    p20
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    Musical sub for a 13x13 HT

    I've been trying to choose a good value sub for less the $1k. I recently picked up a B-stock Denon 3805 AVR and am setting up my 13x13 study to do double-duty as an HT (would be used for music ~90% and HT 10%). As for the sub, my wife would prefer that it isn't an eyesore. I saw a small Martin-Logan Dynamo and a Velodyne SPL 1000 today. I've also read about the larger Hsu STF 2, the SVS-PB10 (seems like a great performer for HT, but not sure about music), and the ACI Force. I would certainly welcome any input from members who are familiar with these subs. I am in the process of selecting the front speakers as well. Although I never listened to them, the Ascends seem to be a great value (but not very attractive) based on the chat in various forums. I did listen to a pair of expensive (by my stds) Sonus Farber Concertos today on a 3805 and they sounded very nice, but I'd hope to find something less. Any recommendations? Thanks /p

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Hello and welcome to Audioreview

    Ouch a 13x13 room, a perfect square. Besides your need for endless room acoustics etc... How does it work for you?

    i can recommend Rel subwoofers. Also check out vmps subwoofers and the older velodyne HGS (servo) subwoofers.

    Musicality= Rel and VMPS
    Brute force= Velodyne HGS, VMPS
    Last edited by Florian; 05-16-2005 at 02:26 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  3. #3
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    In additon to the ACI Force (good choice IMO) I'd recommend checking out the Adire Rava or Dayton Titanic MKIII. These are both powerful 12" sealed subs that have great musicality and won't put you in the poor house. With your budget you could even look at the 15" Titanic, but it's a bit bigger...I think it migth dominate a 13 X 13 room but I'll let you decide that.

    In your square room you'll want to invest in a Parametric Equalizer for the bass. Add $100 for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer and this will solve a lot of your room acoustic problems. If you're going to drop $600-$1000 on a subwoofer you owe it to yourself to get one of these so the sub performs up to its potential.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular 46minaudio's Avatar
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    Here is one sealed,nice amp,PEQ built in,about 13" square.Nice on the eyes too.
    http://www.av123.com/products_produc...rs&product=1.1
    Last edited by 46minaudio; 05-16-2005 at 05:57 AM.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    For your small room, you're going to pick up a lot of boundary gain, so you might want to opt for a sealed sub because those subs tend to work better with the low end reinforcement that a smaller room gives you than ported subs. The Martin-Logan Dynamo fits the bill, and so do the entry-midlevel subs from B&W and Atlantic Technology. I believe that the sealed subs from REL and Velodyne are out of your price range, but they are easy to find at specialty audio stores, so you can at least give them a try.

    Other mail order options I would look at include Acoustic Visions' MRS-10 (Ed Mullen's excellent review of this sub is linked below), the Adire Rava, the ACI subs, and the Rocket sealed subs.

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-11-2004.html

    As kex mentioned, because of the difficult acoustics with both a small room and a square room, you should look at either a sub with a built in parametric filter, or get an outboard parametric EQ that you can hook up to the sub (the aforementioned Behringer Feedback Destroyer is a bargain for the improvement that it delivers, but it does have a steep learning curve since it was originally designed for pro audio rigs).

  6. #6
    p20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Hello and welcome to Audioreview

    Ouch a 13x13 room, a perfect square. Besides your need for endless room acoustics etc... How does it work for you?

    i can recommend Rel subwoofers. Also check out vmps subwoofers and the older velodyne HGS (servo) subwoofers.

    Musicality= Rel and VMPS
    Brute force= Velodyne HGS, VMPS

    Florian-
    Thanks for your input. The good news is that the room is not exactly square, although it's close. It was 17x15, but I just had bookcases built onto one wall of the room so the dimensions have changed slightly.

    I am only now just beginning the process of identifying the equipment. The front speakers have to fit into a bookcase so they cannot be very large and preferably not rear ported. I will probably be limited as to where I can place my sub, so it can't be too big since the room also has a desk, chair, a 33x80 inch bookcase opposite the built-ins and will probably also get one or two comfy chairs for listening and viewing. I should know better how it all works in a few weeks. I think it will take a lot of effort to optimize this dual use space.

    I will look further at the RELs and VMPS (if available in the states). Is there a particular model that would best suite my application? I don't particularly want something that is really loud. I'd much rather it be good musically, however, it would be nice if the sub I end up with is one where you can 'sense' the sound before you actually hear the rumble when watching a movie in 5.1. /P

  7. #7
    p20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    In additon to the ACI Force (good choice IMO) I'd recommend checking out the Adire Rava or Dayton Titanic MKIII. These are both powerful 12" sealed subs that have great musicality and won't put you in the poor house. With your budget you could even look at the 15" Titanic, but it's a bit bigger...I think it migth dominate a 13 X 13 room but I'll let you decide that.

    In your square room you'll want to invest in a Parametric Equalizer for the bass. Add $100 for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer and this will solve a lot of your room acoustic problems. If you're going to drop $600-$1000 on a subwoofer you owe it to yourself to get one of these so the sub performs up to its potential.

    Kex-
    I appreciate your input. I'll research it further, but exactly what is a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (parametric equalizer)? This is all new for me so please bear with me. I agree that whatever sub I end up with, it must perform up to its potential.

    I've noted in my response to Florian that loud is not especially important to me since my HT is a relatively small space and I think almost any sub could come across as loud. However, a clean sound would be nice. Is it possible to get a musical sub that also lets you feel the very low sounds you can't hear that is neither too big or intrusive within my price range (or for less)? Thanks. /P

  8. #8
    p20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    For your small room, you're going to pick up a lot of boundary gain, so you might want to opt for a sealed sub because those subs tend to work better with the low end reinforcement that a smaller room gives you than ported subs. The Martin-Logan Dynamo fits the bill, and so do the entry-midlevel subs from B&W and Atlantic Technology. I believe that the sealed subs from REL and Velodyne are out of your price range, but they are easy to find at specialty audio stores, so you can at least give them a try.

    Other mail order options I would look at include Acoustic Visions' MRS-10 (Ed Mullen's excellent review of this sub is linked below), the Adire Rava, the ACI subs, and the Rocket sealed subs.

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-11-2004.html

    As kex mentioned, because of the difficult acoustics with both a small room and a square room, you should look at either a sub with a built in parametric filter, or get an outboard parametric EQ that you can hook up to the sub (the aforementioned Behringer Feedback Destroyer is a bargain for the improvement that it delivers, but it does have a steep learning curve since it was originally designed for pro audio rigs).
    Woochifer- It looks like there are some good choices available between $450-$600. In a sealed sub, as you've suggested, would a down-firing speaker offer any advantage over a front-firing speaker or visa-versa in my space? The ML Dynamo has the flexibility to go either way. In what areas, if any, would you expect the $450 MRS-10 or the $599 Rocket UFW-10 to better the $599 ML Dynamo? Could the Dynamo be too small to deliver great performance for music and HT in my space? /P

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p20
    Florian-
    Thanks for your input. The good news is that the room is not exactly square, although it's close. It was 17x15, but I just had bookcases built onto one wall of the room so the dimensions have changed slightly.

    I am only now just beginning the process of identifying the equipment. The front speakers have to fit into a bookcase so they cannot be very large and preferably not rear ported. I will probably be limited as to where I can place my sub, so it can't be too big since the room also has a desk, chair, a 33x80 inch bookcase opposite the built-ins and will probably also get one or two comfy chairs for listening and viewing. I should know better how it all works in a few weeks. I think it will take a lot of effort to optimize this dual use space.

    I will look further at the RELs and VMPS (if available in the states). Is there a particular model that would best suite my application? I don't particularly want something that is really loud. I'd much rather it be good musically, however, it would be nice if the sub I end up with is one where you can 'sense' the sound before you actually hear the rumble when watching a movie in 5.1. /P
    I would give VMPS a try then. I would recommend the

    215 Sub w/MegaWoofer for $649.00.

    Contact Jon in LA and tell him Florian sent you and that your looking for a good subwoofer. Phone: (sent you a PM)
    -Florian

    By the way, they cleaned up the CES with best High End product of the year in 02 and 03
    And they have been there for over 30 years!!
    Last edited by Florian; 05-17-2005 at 02:10 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  10. #10
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    p20:

    A parametric EQ is a must IMO for getting the most out of any subwoofer. The easiest way for me to explain it is to relate to speakers. Most speakers are rated across the frequency spectrum, say for example : 42 Hz - 20,000 Hz +/-3 dB. +/-3 dB is considered quite good, it means the loudest frequency will be no more than + 3 dB above the avearage signal and the quietest frequency will be no more then -3 dB, etc. A total variance between loudest and softetst signals fo 6 dB. This is pretty much the standard these days.

    Because of the properties of low frequency wavelengths, any given room's dimensions will usually impact the sub 200 Hz frequencies much, much more than the rest of the spectrum, either reinforcing some frequencies, or diminishing others. Squarish shaped rooms are usually the worse. What this does because of the interaction with your room, your subwoofers response will go from +/-3 dB to something far worse.

    In my room, I measured something like +14 dB -12 dB from 20 to 60Hz, with peaks occuring around 38 Hz, and 56 Hz, and dips in the mid 40's, mid 20's and mid 60's. I also had a massive +14 dB peak in the high 70's. (don't remember the real numbers but this is close, maybe even going easy) This is a typical result...some people actually have it much worse. Most don't have it much better. It's not the sub's fault, it's the room's. +14/-12 dB is a total variance of 26 dB. You wouldn't own a speaker that produced that response. Why would you settle for anything else in the bottom 2 octaves?

    With a response like this, what you will find is that you set the level of your subwoofer to blend with your speakers based on the loudest frequencies...the +14 dB at 38Hz and 56 Hz for example. This means the average sub signal is 14 dB less than the peaks and the dips are 26 dB below....
    Or you set your sub to the average frequency and your peaks are +14 dB louder, giving you the impression the sub is too boomy and sloppy, and causing you endless headaches.

    A parametric Equalizer, not completely unlike other equalizers let's you smooth out these variances. The Parametric EQ actually allows you to target a frequency, and adjust the size of the band of frequencies you wish to eq to the average signal level. So you can tame narrow peaks or fat peaks down to the average signal for example. The result is a much more even, well defined, and more authoritative bass sound without boominess or disappearing frequencies.

    I am not exaggerating when I say this little $100 device can make a $500 sub perform better than a $1000 subwoofer. Ideally, everyone would budget a P EQ into their sub purchase. Why pay more for performance your room won't permit when you can spend the same money to achieve a more accurate response?

    If you were to do a search in the forums here on the BFD (Behringer Feedback Destroyer) you'll find many testaments of the huge improvement it provides all subs. In fact it was the advice of several of the more experienced folk here that prompted me to investigate and eventually buy one.

    Wooch is right, the learning curve is a bit steep at first, and you'll also need an SPL meter ($40 from Radio Shack) if you don't have one already. Buy after fiddling around for awhile the results are worth it. Good news is there's tons of help available online.

    Definitely budget for parametric eq'ing in your sub purchase.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p20
    Woochifer- It looks like there are some good choices available between $450-$600. In a sealed sub, as you've suggested, would a down-firing speaker offer any advantage over a front-firing speaker or visa-versa in my space? The ML Dynamo has the flexibility to go either way. In what areas, if any, would you expect the $450 MRS-10 or the $599 Rocket UFW-10 to better the $599 ML Dynamo? Could the Dynamo be too small to deliver great performance for music and HT in my space? /P
    In general, mounting a driver on the front will give the driver slightly more excursion because it does not have to work against gravity on the upstroke. But, at a more practical level, with a downfiring sub, you don't pay for the cost of the grille and you don't have to worry about anyone accidentally kicking in the woofer. Otherwise, there are no huge performance differences between the two designs, although some people have said that front-firing subs can be easier to place.

    The ML Dynamo is a brand new model, but on paper I believe that both the Rocket and the Acoustic Visions subs have deeper bass extension. In your space, the concern should be whether a sub will overpower the room because the acoustical effects begin to reinforce and boost the lower frequencies further up in the frequency range than in larger rooms.

  12. #12
    p20
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    Here's an update - I looked at the ML Dynamo today since there is a high end A/V store on my way home from work. When I told the salesman that I wanted to demo the Dynamo and described my square, smallish room, he suggested that I might want to consider one of the larger ML subs, which were priced at $900 and up. So we listened to 'Hotel California' on both the Dynamo and the Grotto. I thought the $900 Grotto (250 watt rms amp) sounded a bit better in the fairly open and well carpeted showroom than the smaller $600 Dynamo (200 watt rms amp), but that's not quite the same as my study with bare wood floor and no window treatments. I don't recall whether either specifically had an EQ control, however the Grotto does have a 25 Hz level control. Both subs are very compact and, for my taste, are extremely attractive.

    Based on some of the information offered to me in this string, I am a bit concerned about potentially putting the wrong sub in the room, either because I paid too much for more than the room can handle or, even at a lower price, the performance is not conducive to my space. I still need to do more research on the other brands that were suggested (and likely become more confused). Bottom line is that I need to narrow it down to just 1, 2 or 3 'appropriate' candidate subs.

    Does anyone have an opinion about Sonus Faber Concerto speakers? I may be able to pick up a new pair with walnut cheeks for almost half the list price and am wondering whether these would be a good small bookshelf speaker to go with my Denon 3805 AVR. I liked the sound, but I'd expect there are other quality speakers that cost less. /P

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Sonus Faber is good in my book, but they tend to sound a bith harsh with SS gear. Please put the VMPS 626 on your audition list, because they really are something else and work great for music and HT plus they are the best value out there in my opinion. Just give them a try....
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  14. #14
    p20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Sonus Faber is good in my book, but they tend to sound a bith harsh with SS gear. Please put the VMPS 626 on your audition list, because they really are something else and work great for music and HT plus they are the best value out there in my opinion. Just give them a try....
    Florian- Yes, I plan to contact Jon at the number you provided. Regardng your SF Concertos comment, I do not know what SS gear is. Would these speakers be a good match with my Deneon 3805 receiver that is running a 5.1 surround sound system (ah ha, could a 5.1 system be the SS gear you are referring too)? /P

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    SS refers to Solid State Power AMPs such as your Denon. The Oposite would be Tube Amplifiers, which are prefered by some users. I have a Tube Preamp in my system in order to get more warth am detail in. Really depends on your tatse.

    I am sure that the Sonus Fabers will work great on your Denon inc. Surround. If you want to get the best out of the Sonus Fabers i would suggest a seperate pre and power amp down the road, but you dont have to worry about that for now.

    -Florian
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

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