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  1. #1
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    Major Upgrade Advice!

    Time to upgrade!!!
    So I'm looking to upgrade my system. I won't even go into current due to it's thrown togetherness and inferiority.
    Where should I start? Speakers first? amp?
    Budget might be in the 4-6K$ range.
    I don't plan on doing all at once but over 6-12 months.
    Tube amp? Solid?
    Speakers?
    I do own some Senn 650's with a Headroom amp if that means anything?
    I have heard some older Klipsch, heard good things about Paradigms.
    I'm looking for that warm yummy goodness?
    With so many reviews and what not I just don't know where to start.
    The Dynaco tube amps look sweet but?
    Help Help Help
    Cheers!

  2. #2
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Hey grammicci, welcome to AR! Sounds like you have a great budget to build a solid system. Some questions to get you started -

    1. What are the dimensions of your room?
    2. What are your sources (e.g. CD Player, DVD Player, turntable)?
    3. Are you planning to upgrade your sources as well (e.g. new CD Player, DAC)
    4. What type of music do you listen to?
    5. In this a two-channel stereo system or a surround home theatre system?
    6. Is the system primarily for music, sports, video games, movies?

    Great headphones, the Senn 650's are on my shopping list next year, along with a Naim Headline amp

    cheers,
    elapsed
    Fidelity Acoustics RFM-2 speakers
    Naim CD5x cd player
    Naim NAC 122x pre-amp
    Naim NAP 150x poweramp
    Naim FlatCap-2x power supply
    Naim Stageline N phono stage
    Naim NACA5 speaker cabling
    Naim Hi-Line interconnect
    Chord Crimson interconnects
    Rega Planar 3 turntable
    Goldring 1042 cartridge
    Squeezebox 3
    Oppo DV-983H dvd player
    Harmony 890 remote
    Quadraspire Q4 shelving
    Wiremold L10320 power strip

    System Picture #1 | System Picture #2 | System Design

  3. #3
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    Room-20Lx14Wx10H
    Sources-CD player(will upgrade), Turntable
    Music-Jazz, rock, jam, bluegrass
    Two channel for sure
    MUsic only!!!
    PRoblem with room is that we got furniture. Furniture that will be in the way of sound and not make any system ideal.
    System will be on one end of room with sofa along one long wall, creating a dampening effect on the left speaker.
    I'm not complaingin considering the wife okayed the upgrade . Sofa must stay though.
    She loves vintage stuff and style so going that route would be fun, just not sure on reliability or availability to maintain equipment?
    Good local deals on used Klipsch, just not sure if I could get some good listen time before buying?
    Klipsch,Tube amps= warmy, fuzzy, goodness?
    Cheers, JG

  4. #4
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    I think clarity and transparencey is more important than shear volume. If that helps with anybodies feedback?

  5. #5
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    For 4-6k you can have a great system, and an even greater system if you go used and shop right

    what kind of sound are you trying to achieve? rather on the warmer end, or on the brighter end, or right in between (neutral)...
    there is plenty of gear out there, and we'll be happy to help you

    btw, you mentioned Klipsch: Tubed Mcintosh gear makes an awesome combination with Klipsch...

    and may I recommend Thiel? (I'm biased ); which also makes an excellent combo with Mcintosh...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  6. #6
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    Certain tube gear is also magic with Martin Logan. The combo could be out of your range though, it takes power to push those babies. You could do something like the Purity which is powered and only use a tube preamp.

    I'm partial to Conrad Johnson tube gear. I also like VTL

    Mac SS or tube is a good way to go.

    You might take a look at Dynaudio's Excite line of speakers.

    I haven't heard any but I've heard good things and they have looks, Shanling.

    There are so many ways to go, I'd suggest trying to listen to as much gear as you can find. Especially listen to the Klipsch before buying you may find that isn't the way to go.

  7. #7
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Hey Grammicci,

    As an owner of Martin Logans I would not suggest them in your circumstances. Of course, Mr. Peabody is right in that with the right associated equipment they'll get you the warm sound that you like...but they are very room dependent. I've got SL3s, which are the smallest ML's that are really worth the money, and in my 20 x 12 room they sound constrained. And, they don't play well with furniture.

    Skimming through Audiogon I have a couple of suggestions that fall within your price range and might work to reach your stated goals in your environment.


    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1226686122

    The Kefs are very warm sounding speakers (I've got a lower-on-the-food-chain set in a second system) that do a variety of things well. They're great a all levels of volume and they're front-ported which will make placement easier in challenging situations...plus look at 'em, that's WAF!

    There's also a nice pair of Focals that would be a viable alternative: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1226760785



    You want tubes? Why make things difficult? Jolida makes nice and very underrated stuff...100 watts of tube power, easy to obtain EL34 tubes, multiple inputs and a vintage look. Yes, McIntosh and CV make great stuff (I'm a Mac man myself) but the best stuff is a budget-breaker.



    You're gonna need a phono-stage and while this is not necessarily my area of expertise I know enough to know that Tim Paravacini is considered by many golden ears to be, well, golden.
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....hon&1226521848

    Prolly not gonna go wrong with this either. Rega has long been considered a giant-killer. The new Marantz units get good reviews though I can't say I've heard any myself.

    In any case, at your budget you have many options and those are the kinds of things I would be looking at. The challenge you'll face is to find pieces that will properly integrate into your room, which is hard enough under optimal conditions but will require some thought when otherwise.

    Good luck. I look forward to reading about your travels on this little road of madness and make sure to have fun along the way. Welcome to the forum.

    ---sticks

  8. #8
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    My favorite speakers are Magnepans and Thiels. Both these brands may have what your looking for. Take a listen to the Magnepan QR1.6's for about $1800. For tube amps consider Van Alstine. He makes great hybrid gear. I also like the Parasound HaloA21. Mr. P's suggestion of Conrad Johnson is excellent as well.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  9. #9
    RGA
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    I would recommend you consider Audio Note loudspeakers and possibly Grant Fidelity front end electronics to meet your budget and also your vintage "looks" appeal. I have found no better loudspeaker and they're room friendly - they can be put hard into corners or near wall or you can run them free standing with or without heavy toe in. They're easy to drive - designed with sets and they don't need subwoofers.

    You can read about the AN E in the August 2008 Stereophile, The AN J/Spe at Dagogo.com http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteANJ-SPe.html along with several other reviewers there writing about them.

    The AN J is $5,000 and another $500 for stands so it may be pushing your budget - but that's before negotiating price.

    You'll see my review of Grant Fidelity coming in the next couple of months.

    Good luck in the search.

    Richard Austen.
    Last edited by RGA; 09-16-2008 at 09:07 PM.

  10. #10
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    Bobsticks, great stuff!
    Keep it coming folks.
    So I tests drove some paradigm studio 60v2 today.
    Definatly crisp, crystally, smooth, and all that I would have really expected. I hair lacking on the low end although a bit nitpicky. At the price though they are tempting. They are used but ever so slightly and they are coming from a dealer.$700!!???
    All reviewers of these seemed to rave, but I am trying not to just impulse buy the first decent deal to come along.
    Problem is I live in a realativly small town and I have to drive 2+ hours to listen at various dealers.
    More opinions welcome, especially on the paradigms since I just gave a listen.

  11. #11
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot BobSticks

    Now I have to clean drool, drool I say, off of the ole keyboard. Man that is some pretty gear... Ohhh Me Wants!!!!!

    Da Worfster

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

    You might take a look at Dynaudio's Excite line of speakers.
    Did you listen to these guys yet? Side by side with Audience? I do find it hard that they would sound better, just different.

    I would suggest buying the closeouts of the Audience line at a good price.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Take a look at the Paradigm Signature Series. They are much better than the Studio series. I had the chance to audition the Studio 60 and 100's against the S6's & 8's.

    Also consider PSB synchrony's. They have better bass and a warmer sound compared to the Paradigm Studio's and S series.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  14. #14
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    So this is what I'm eyeballing after some good feedback.

    Paradigm studio 60 v2 (local, affordable, sound pretty damn good)

    Grant Fidelity- CD-cd-327A, tube amp either: A-348, A-88, or A-534)? Feedback
    and possibly the GF phone pre amp?

    Also looking to upgrade turntable, just need somthing solid and RELIABLEwith killer sound?

  15. #15
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  16. #16
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    Now I have to clean drool, drool I say, off of the ole keyboard. Man that is some pretty gear... Ohhh Me Wants!!!!!

    Da Worfster
    Good lookin' stuff, idn't it? I'll refer back to my old axiom about relativity. It's all situational, the room is gonna be challenging and might as well throw ol' girl a bone with the WAF factor since she's playin' nice.

    I like blackraven's points on the Paradigm and the Van Alstine---and btw, blackie, it's good to see you posting---but I disagree with recommending Maggies. Like my ML's they're not gonna play to their best in a less-than-optimal room. I like what I've heard of Theils too, but I've never had in any in my house so I'll reserve comment.

    I just get the feeling that this is going to be a room with speakers up against the wall...y'know. Difficult stuff. Hell, prolly the best recommendation has been RGA's Audio Notes but at 5k plus that's another budget-breaker. But he gets the point, you've got to grab the tool for the job.

  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Well ...

    Quote Originally Posted by grammicci14
    So this is what I'm eyeballing after some good feedback.

    Paradigm studio 60 v2 (local, affordable, sound pretty damn good)

    Grant Fidelity- CD-cd-327A, tube amp either: A-348, A-88, or A-534)? Feedback
    and possibly the GF phone pre amp?

    Also looking to upgrade turntable, just need somthing solid and RELIABLEwith killer sound?
    Grammicci, for a start I'd forget the A-534 with the likes of the Paradigms; not enough power. A 10 wpc amp might work with very high efficiency speakers like certain AN models, (RGA would be the first to agree), but to me it seems skimpy with the Paradigms.

    The Studio 60's are perhaps a "bargoon" at their price but I do adhere to the general strategy of putting a bit more into the speakers than amplification in the case of middle-range hifi equipment. I'd look to the Paradigm Signature or the PSB Synchrony lines (amongst others) for a bit more refinement.

    Everyone to his own taste, right?? But I hate the "bottles-on-a-box" look of so much tube equipment. I'm not against tubes in general, (I use a tube preamp), but for power amplification I'd go with something closer to mainstream in the <$2000 range (or any range for that matter). In any case, looks aren't a big consideration for me.

    Used equipment is always worth considering because the potential saving is very big.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Well said Feanor! If you really want tubes, consider doing a SS amp and a tube preamp or a hybrid like the Van Alstine Fet Vavle amps which I am considering buying.

    http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipmen...valve_amps.htm
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  19. #19
    RGA
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    The Paradigms are so so - I would look at the 100V2 on the used market over the 60 - or the 40V2 with a sub. But your budget has more room and frankly I'd skip Paradigm and PSB with the money in your budget. Good lesser known front ends are available for less money - like Grant Fidelity. I have only reviewed the Rita and it has more than enough power to drive virtually any speaker - but it's not cheap. I don't know how their lower powered amps would do - but power is a function of the power supply more than just the watt rating. The OTO can easily drive the Quad 2905 for example despite 10 watts.

    Still simply look at higher efficiency speakers - they tend to sound better anyway.

    The AN K and Reference 3a MM De Capo are under 3k and both need little power - 10 watts - both sound better than the Paradigms and PSBs. The AN K for example sounds better than S8 - it's not as full range and won't play as loud but in every other way sounds better and you have about $5k leftover - I'm sure you can buy 2 mighty darn good subwoofers for $5k that will blow away the bass of the S8. And while I don't love sub matching due to driver integration problems - you have those problems with the S8 anyway. The AN K is a sealed box design and in corners will get you 36hz. 45hz solid, tuneful etc. Similar to the De Capo in terms of bass. The De Capo is darker sounding which might be preferable as they will be friendlier to lesser front end electronics and solid state gear generally.

    The advantage here though is that the AN K and De Capo give you more choice so you don;t need to buy an amp based on power. You can buy an AN K at $3k and partner it up with a SET from Grant Fidelity for $1k.

    I'd also look at Omega Loudspeakers if you really want to go on the cheap - I've heard a single driver speaker recently and if Omega sounds similar - it might be a cheap budget option. http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3xrs.html

    Still if the max budget is $6k the AN J and a nice Grant fidelity tube amp IMO is the way to go. Granted I am biased but Paradigm and PSB just don't play at that level.
    If you are handy I would suggest the AN E Kit and build the speakers yourself for a lot less. http://www.audionotekits.com/
    Last edited by RGA; 09-17-2008 at 07:00 PM.

  20. #20
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    I have not heard the Excite yet but they have been designed to be the easiest Dyn's to drive to date. The dealer has some in now, they say the Excite sound a lot like the Audience. I was extremely impressed by the Focus bookshelf speaker.

  21. #21
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    My experience has led me to a different conclusion, I have yet to hear a good sounding "high efficient" speaker. I would like to hear the AN's some day though. Is AN still in the market like they were? It seems their distribution is getting strange and they are more difficult to find.

    What is the story on Grant Fidelity? This is the first I've heard of them. Have they been around long?

  22. #22
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I have to disagree about the PSB synchrony's. They sound much better than Paradigms and are worth a look. My friend has a pair matched with a Belle's HotRod amp, an AR tube preamp and Marantz SA8001 CDP and they sound great. He replaced his tower Triangles ( forgot the model ) with the PSB's.
    Also consider The Monitor Audio GS 60's and PL-100's. They need a lot of power though.

    If you have $6K to spend, figure $2-3K for speaks, $2-3K for amp/pre and $1K for CDP. In reality, $6K is not a lot to work with for a high end system. You really need closer to $8K because a very good amp/pre will set you back at least $4-5K unless you go used.

    You might want to consider a nice integrated amp like the Cambridge Audio 840A for around $1500, that would leave more money for speaks. If your looking for a warmer sound consider the budget hybrid amp and preamp from Vincent Audio. That combo would set you back about $2K. Check them out at audioadvisor.com
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  23. #23
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    I know I am the minority here but it don't make sense to spend $3k on speakers and $1k on the source, that's a bit out of balance. If the source don't pull off and reproduce what's on that disc nothing else down the chain will allow you to hear it because it just isn't there. I'd say at least $2k to get into a decent CD player. You can buy a pair of Dynaudio Focus series for well under $3k that will perform well beyond that $3k price range. The last time I was in the store looking for gear we played several integrated and separates through the Focus bookshelf and they were outstanding. We also used the same speakers to listen between a T+A $5k and a $3k CD player. We were able to detect the differences. There's no reason to blow half your budget on speakers then have to go mid-fi on the electronics. It takes a bit of matching, listening and shopping around. It's best to spread the money evenly throughout the system but if I was going to lean one or the other my money would be on a good source.

    Here's an interesting integrated on special, only one:
    http://www.musicdirect.com/product/81431

  24. #24
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    You make a good point Mr. P, but his budget is $4-6K. Lets say he spends 2k on speakers, $2500-3k on an amp and preamp, that leaves
    $1-1.5K for a source. Spending any less on an amp and preamp will not do a 2-3K source justice either.

    After hearing Van Alstines DAC today, I would consider buying the Marantz 5001 CDP for $300 and using it as a transport with the VA DAC for $800. It sounded better than my 840c which is no slouch and would it would pair well with $3k speakers.

    The bottom line is that you need more money to really pair high quality speakers, amp/pre and CDP. With his budget there has to be some compromise. There are several good CDP's in the 1K range that would do well in a higher end system. And of course you could always upgrade the source at a later date being as it would be the cheapest part in the system. I would rather buy better speakers now and not have to replace them later. Just my opinion for what ever thats worth.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  25. #25
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    I read your thread and was wondering what price range his gear is in.

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