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  1. #1
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    large mode or small mode

    what are the conditions for setting a receiver to push the speakers on small mode or large mode. ive heard many things and i was hoping someone could clarify it for me. from what i understand anything 6.5" and over should be run in large mode, is this true??

  2. #2
    LMB
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    Hi Kevin,
    You set your speakers to small mode if you have a 5.1 set up no matter what size your speakers are if you have a subwoofer this will send to low frequencies to your sub which is what you want with a 5.1 setup more impact

    lmb

  3. #3
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMB
    Hi Kevin,
    You set your speakers to small mode if you have a 5.1 set up no matter what size your speakers are if you have a subwoofer this will send to low frequencies to your sub which is what you want with a 5.1 setup more impact

    lmb
    I am not sure if I agree with this in all instances....

    It is true that many 5.1 (or 6 or 7.1) setups use smaller speakers that don't have the low bass capabilities as most subs do, and as such the advice makes sense in many cases... but this is not a blanket statement by any means...

    In my case, I have a pretty good subwoofer, but my mains are gigantic, and have much more low bass energy potential. I don't route my main speakers' low bass to my sub, as it would actually suffer if I did. I do route *some* of my smaller speakers' bass to the sub on the other channels in 6.1 mode, but I think when looking at which bass to route, it will be a function of speaker capabilities, and subwoofer capabilities.

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  4. #4
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    It depends on the speakers.

    If your speakers can handle lows without embarrrasing themselves, or simply ignore what they can't reproduce then it's perfectly fine to run them as large. This can be a great benefit when playing music.

    I run my speakers as large to handle the full range but still channel the lows to the sub. This way, when I listen to music I cah mute the sub, which can be a bit much for music, and still retain the full range my speakers are capable of

    Of course, if the speakers can't handle it, then set 'em to small.

  5. #5
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I run my speakers as large to handle the full range but still channel the lows to the sub.
    With my older NAD T763 receiver, you only get sub output if you set the mains to small. Later versions of the same receiver "fixed" that problem, but others may be faced with the same issue.

    I agree with your guidelines. No matter at what frequency I set the HT or powered sub crossovers, I still get a mild suckout at 100 hz. Perhaps if I could run the mains (with 6" woofers) full range, that could help. On the other hand, that may just be a characteristic of the room.

    rw

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    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    So setting my Xover at 80,then what difference is there going to be setting my B&W603's to small vs large?
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    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Not the sub but the receiver

    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    So setting my Xover at 80,then what difference is there going to be setting my B&W603's to small vs large?
    It depends what your AV receiver does with "Small" vs. "Large". If, in the case of "Small", your receiver sends all signal below 100Hz to the sub, then you will be missing 80-100Hz because of your sub setting. In general, don't set your sub's cross over lower than whatever your receiver is sending it or you will have a drop-out.

  8. #8
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    So setting my Xover at 80,then what difference is there going to be setting my B&W603's to small vs large?
    As Feanor indicated, I was referring to the AV receiver's behavior. There are three sets of variables:

    1. Does you AV receiver output to the LFE channel ONLY with small (as with mine) or with either setting (markw)?

    2. Choice of crossover on the receiver from speakers to sub.

    3. Choice of crossover on sub itself (if active or powered)

    A couple of weeks ago, I spent the better part of a couple hours with my Radio Shack sound meter and one of the Stereophile test disks to get the flattest overall response. The resulting settings surprised me. My main speakers are Polk RT-35s whose -3 db cutoff is 50 hz. Initially then, I set the AV receiver to 60 to offload more to the pair of 12" powered subs. I ended up moving the crossover setting much higher to eliminate some prominent peaks between 60-100 hz and dips above that..

    rw

  9. #9
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    As Feanor indicated, I was referring to the AV receiver's behavior. There are three sets of variables:

    1. Does you AV receiver output to the LFE channel ONLY with small (as with mine) or with either setting (markw)?

    2. Choice of crossover on the receiver from speakers to sub.

    3. Choice of crossover on sub itself (if active or powered)

    A couple of weeks ago, I spent the better part of a couple hours with my Radio Shack sound meter and one of the Stereophile test disks to get the flattest overall response. The resulting settings surprised me. My main speakers are Polk RT-35s whose -3 db cutoff is 50 hz. Initially then, I set the AV receiver to 60 to offload more to the pair of 12" powered subs. I ended up moving the crossover setting much higher to eliminate some prominent peaks between 60-100 hz and dips above that..

    rw
    On my 2805 i set the Xover on the receiver at 80. Can use other setting if wanted.
    Can go LFE or LFE + Mains
    Dont use sub Xover,its disabled.
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  10. #10
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    OK, that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    With my older NAD T763 receiver, you only get sub output if you set the mains to small. Later versions of the same receiver "fixed" that problem, but others may be faced with the same issueI.
    True, it helps if the receiver can do that. Fortunately My Denon allows that. I'm surprised that NAD, with their wunnerful amps, is so far behind the curve on bass management.


    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I agree with your guidelines. No matter at what frequency I set the HT or powered sub crossovers, I still get a mild suckout at 100 hz. Perhaps if I could run the mains (with 6" woofers) full range, that could help. On the other hand, that may just be a characteristic of the room.
    Thanks. It does sound like a room anamoly. When I run the sub and mains concurrently it tends to muddy up the mid/low bass. But, on movies it sounds great.

  11. #11
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    These days, you're almost always better setting the speakers to small if you have a sub. The variable LFE cutoff settings are the key.

    In E-stats case (sorry to pick on you, sir), his speakers are great down to 50 Hz. Setting them to small and selecting the LFE crossover at 40 Hz, or 50 Hz would essentially be the same as running the speakers "full-range" for their useful frequencies, but adds some benefits. You're not sending wasted power to the speakers (more power is always nice) and you're not asking your 5" to 8" woofers to produce frequencies they shouldn't be. For a 6.5" woofer, hitting a 35-50Hz frequency with any kind of volume behind it can eat up the driver's excursion very fast. You're opening the door to poor transient response, distortion, and all kinds of unwanteds. It's no secret that relieving a midwoofer of the first few octaves can tremendously improve its performance.

    For receivers with fixed crossovers at 80 or 90Hz, sometimes leaving the speakers as "large" is necessary for room acoustic reasons. I suppose this could apply to variable receiver crossovers too, if you feel your room makes your bass response to "peaky" and is smoothed out when running bass through your mains, by all means go ahead.

    Most receivers these days have a "pure direct" mode or something similar that bypasses the processing and sends fullrange speakers only to the mains anyway. This makes it very easy to optimize your system for HT, AND run your mains full-range for 2-channel.

    There's always exceptions though, experiment.

    Edit:
    Afterthought: I would think for a lot of people, the natural acoustic roll-offs of their speakers (many are ported) would be quite fast, and it could be pretty difficult to achieve an even response when you have main speakers running full range simultaneously with a subwoofer from, say, 40-80 hz. You'd just be selling short the frequencies below 40Hz by not having enough SPL, or there'd be a large, broad peak until your sub gets crossed over at 80-90 Hz to the mains caused by the SPL reinforcement from the main main speakers.

    Could get pretty tricky.
    Last edited by kexodusc; 12-16-2005 at 10:41 AM.

  12. #12
    cam
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    If E-Stats speakers are -3db at 50 hz, wouldn't the best crossover setting be 100hz. I heard somewhere that you should set your bass management to one octave higher then where your mains start to fade. My Paradigm Monitor 7's in my room start to fade at about 45 hz so a setting of 90 hz would be optimal. I don't have a 90 setting, but I do have a 80 and 100 hz setting, and for my room with my gear, 100hz with all speakers set to small give the biggest results.

    And to the original poster, my mains have dual 6.5" drivers and I would never run them on large in a 5.1 set-up. But with 2 channel music with a sub, I let them run full range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam
    If E-Stats speakers are -3db at 50 hz, wouldn't the best crossover setting be 100hz. I heard somewhere that you should set your bass management to one octave higher then where your mains start to fade. My Paradigm Monitor 7's in my room start to fade at about 45 hz so a setting of 90 hz would be optimal. I don't have a 90 setting, but I do have a 80 and 100 hz setting, and for my room with my gear, 100hz with all speakers set to small give the biggest results.

    And to the original poster, my mains have dual 6.5" drivers and I would never run them on large in a 5.1 set-up. But with 2 channel music with a sub, I let them run full range.
    I would have to agree with CAM on this one. I have monitor 11's for fronts and I run them as small. My sub is a paradigm pw2200, so I know the 11's can't produce lows<80hz better than the pw2200 sub. However my pioneer elite receiver gives me the option of running the fronts as large and setting the sub to a PLUS mode. But I'm not really sure what advantage is gained by using the PLUS setting for sub? But when I asked the same question, the majority of people said to set to small with the sub set @ 80-100hz.
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  14. #14
    AR Newbie Registered Member colin.p's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Most receivers these days have a "pure direct" mode or something similar that bypasses the processing and sends fullrange speakers only to the mains anyway. This makes it very easy to optimize your system for HT, AND run your mains full-range for 2-channel.

    I found that with my Panasonic SA-HE 75 receiver that if I run it in stereo, that the mains get a full range signal, but in Dolby, they revert to small and everything below 100hz gets directed to my sub.
    I used to run my mains as large, but when I got a better sub (athena AS-P6000) I set them to small and the sound seems to be much better. BTW, my mains sound very good in stereo mode and have plenty of "punch" for music, as a matter of fact, that playing at a rather loud sound level, I turn the sub off.
    I guess it really depends on what sounds best, but don't be afraid to experiment.

    Colin

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    In E-stats case (sorry to pick on you, sir), his speakers are great down to 50 Hz. Setting them to small and selecting the LFE crossover at 40 Hz, or 50 Hz would essentially be the same as running the speakers "full-range" for their useful frequencies, but adds some benefits... It's no secret that relieving a midwoofer of the first few octaves can tremendously improve its performance.
    No offense taken. Indeed since I used a pair of subs with as much power per channel as the receiver, I do benefit from moving more of the power demands to the subs.

    rw

  16. #16
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam
    If E-Stats speakers are -3db at 50 hz, wouldn't the best crossover setting be 100hz. I heard somewhere that you should set your bass management to one octave higher then where your mains start to fade.
    That is where I set them originally until I spent a few hours experimenting with different settings of both the receiver and sub crossovers along with the sub gain using the trusty sound meter and a test CD. I found the flattest overall setting (in my shortish room) to be at 120 hz.

    rw

  17. #17
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colin.p
    Quote:
    Most receivers these days have a "pure direct" mode or something similar that bypasses the processing and sends fullrange speakers only to the mains anyway. This makes it very easy to optimize your system for HT, AND run your mains full-range for 2-channel.

    I found that with my Panasonic SA-HE 75 receiver that if I run it in stereo, that the mains get a full range signal, but in Dolby, they revert to small and everything below 100hz gets directed to my sub.
    I used to run my mains as large, but when I got a better sub (athena AS-P6000) I set them to small and the sound seems to be much better. BTW, my mains sound very good in stereo mode and have plenty of "punch" for music, as a matter of fact, that playing at a rather loud sound level, I turn the sub off.
    I guess it really depends on what sounds best, but don't be afraid to experiment.

    Colin
    PureDirect is just shutting down all the video-related circults for a more clean signal.
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  18. #18
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    PureDirect is just shutting down all the video-related circults for a more clean signal.
    In most receivers I've seen, the Pure Direct mode does more than shut down video circuits. It bypasses a stage of audio processing, sometimes keeping the signal 100% analog from the DAC in the CD player. One could argue the real world benefits of this, I'm not entirely convinced it's always an audible improvement, but it makes sense.
    Also, the Pure Direct mode will disengage any bass management you have in your receiver, effectively setting the mains to "large" with no crossover to the sub.

  19. #19
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Setting your speakers to large has a few more problems than just a drain on the power amps. Deep bass coming from a speaker not near the walls will create deeper peaks and valleys in its response as it becomes omnidirectional at low frequencies. At the frequencies before the output becomes omnidirectional the signals will arrive to the ears at different times. Without some kind of EQ to correct the response deviations, it is not a good idea to put any of the mains on large.
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    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keviinmc
    what are the conditions for setting a receiver to push the speakers on small mode or large mode. ive heard many things and i was hoping someone could clarify it for me. from what i understand anything 6.5" and over should be run in large mode, is this true??
    So keviinmc,

    Are you clear on the answers here?
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  21. #21
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    Anything 6.5" and under should be set as small with a 80hz xover.A 6.5" driver can't really handle low bass,it's more of a mid-bass driver..

  22. #22
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    So a floorstander with a 1" tweeter, 2-5" midbass and 3-6.5" woofers rated to 22Hz at 112db would be small?
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  23. #23
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    So a floorstander with a 1" tweeter, 2-5" midbass and 3-6.5" woofers rated to 22Hz at 112db would be small?
    He is referring to a single 6.5" driver, not multiple ones. I would be very leery about rated stats coming from a manufacturer. There are no distortion figures at that frequency and at that volume level. I would doubt even three 6.5" woofer could have that kind of output at that frequency.
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  24. #24
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Well we could hope. LOL
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