Internalizing the WAF

[blackraven]

Another speaker to consider that has gotten great review is the Usher X-718

Usher Audio > X Series Loudspeaker > X-718

GoodSound! "Equipment" Archives

[Feanor]

Another speaker to consider that has gotten great review is the Usher X-718

Usher Audio > X Series Loudspeaker > X-718

GoodSound! "Equipment" Archives

The Ushers are definitely worthy of consideration.

Interestingly, Parts Express offers the UA701CBK speaker kit featuring similar drivers for $700 for a pair; also definitely worth considering.

[Poultrygeist]

The PE kits have better drivers than you'll find in non-kit speakers anywhere near their price point. You know you've been itching to build something since the digital amp. The satisfaction of doing it yourself goes a long way plus I can give you some tips on cabinet dampening.

[Ajani]

The Ushers are definitely worthy of consideration.

Interestingly, Parts Express offers the UA701CBK speaker kit featuring similar drivers for $700 for a pair; also definitely worth considering.

Interesting option, but isn't that speaker twin ported? So would it work near a wall or corner?

[Poultrygeist]

I only see one port tube in the picture but if it is rear ported an old sock stuffed in the opening works.

[Feanor]

Interesting option, but isn't that speaker twin ported? So would it work near a wall or corner?

I think a port only needs a short distance from the wall; 3-6" should be enough.

[blackraven]

If you decide to build the User speaks you might consider trying to upgrade the Drivers to the Be-719 Dancer series.

Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-718

By the way, what are you going to do with the Maggies?

[Feanor]

If you decide to build the User speaks you might consider trying to upgrade the Drivers to the Be-719 Dancer series.

Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-718

By the way, what are you going to do with the Maggies?

Interesting that the Be-719 is $2800 MSRP. Don't know the price of the 9980-20BEA tweeter it uses, but its 8948A mid/woofer is $130 at Parts Express, while the 8945A used in the Parts Express kit is $100. Makes you wonder why so much markup on built product. OK, plenty of rationale could be offered I suppose.

I would sell the Maggies since I have no place else to put them, and I could use the cash towards the new, monitor speakers. I doubt I'd have much trouble selling them in the local area, advertizing on Canuck Audio Mart.

[Ajani]

Interesting that the Be-719 is $2800 MSRP. Don't know the price of the 9980-20BEA tweeter it uses, but its 8948A mid/woofer is $130 at Parts Express, while the 8945A used in the Parts Express kit is $100. Makes you wonder why so much markup on built product. OK, plenty of rationale could be offered I suppose.

I costed a pair of Emerald Physics Speakers not too long ago (based on the drivers and active crossover they use) and realize I could put together my own version for way under $1K. The versions I could recreate sell for $3K and $5K... However I don't take into account labour nor do I factor in that there is significant difference in the baffle they use versus the basic MDF I would be using... There own has some serious metal backing that I would not use, so I have no idea how much that might jack up the cost...



I also ignored the cost of a nice finish: For fun I've played around with the custom finish options on Axiom Audio's website: you can more than double the price of some of their speakers just by opting for real wood veneer...

With all that said, I suspect some of the largest areas where DIYers save is on labour and the ability to use much cheaper enclosures and finishes...

[Ajani]

If you're still considering actives, I forgot to mention the Quad 12L Active (a bit long in the tooth but going for a great price from Underwood HiFi):

$796 (retail $1649)


Quad 12L Active monitors For Sale | AudiogoN

I've been tempted by these actives for the last few years, especially considering that at $796, they sell for less than the passive 12L2 monitors...

[blackraven]

Bill, have you totally ruled out Tower speakers? No need for stands.

These Salk Song Bird's are a great buy-

SongBird - specifications

[Feanor]

Bill, have you totally ruled out Tower speakers? No need for stands.

These Salk Song Bird's are a great buy-

SongBird - specifications

I must say, those are appealing.

[JoeE SP9]

I'm with E-Stat on this. Use a couple of unobtrusive pieces of thread or whatever to mark their optimum positions and move them against the wall when not in use or for background music.

[StevenSurprenant]

There's also the Magnepan MC1's or the MMC 2's that hang on the wall. Throw a sub in the mix and it's decent.

I might add that mounting theses speakers on the side walls, away from the front wall allows maggies to do what they do best (create a huge soundstage, but that ability depends on your room dimensions. I did this at my girlfriends house with the MMGW's and they sound impressive.

[Feanor]

I'm still not sure I'm going to give up my Maggies for a more compact, monitor or floorstanding pair, but if I do, a strong option is to go for a kit speaker.

My observation is that you can save a fair bit of cash going with a kit, even on with cabinets included and even more if you build your own cabinets. Why do you save money? Well you have to provide some sweat equity of course, but also I suspect, you don't pay for so much brand advertizing and some markups in the retail chain. Or maybe it's just the brand mystique you're not paying for.

By the way, it doesn't seem to be much or any more expensive to by a parts kit than to by separate components based on a speaker design & specification. This is another valid option, though.

Granted, choosing the right kit is not so easy because you rarely get to hear the speaker before you invest. The other thing is that speaker from kit could be difficult to sell, (possible excepting if you're an ace cabinet builder). However with a little research you can select a kit from a reputable designer and be just as assured of a good speaker as going by typical reviews of a finished, brand product.

Having done some of this sort of research, I'm tempted by the Zaph | Audio "ZRT" design available with or without cabinets from Madisound. Included are the high-quality, highly reputed ScanSpeak Revelator 18W/8531G mid/bass andD3004/6600 “AirCirc” tweeter. See at Madisound HERE. Check out the designer's description and advice HERE. I'm a very confident that this kit would deliver the goods big time. Making my own cabinets, I could keep the price within my $1200 budget, vs. a finished, commercial product in the $3500+ range.

[Poultrygeist]

Bill,

Since you like the open airy sound of dipoles why not build some simple OB's? My Tang Band/Alpha H-frames can be built for $700 and sound far better than box speakers. You could sell the maggies and sub for more than that.

[Ajani]

Bill,

Since you like the open airy sound of dipoles why not build some simple OB's? My Tang Band/Alpha H-frames can be built for $700 and sound far better than box speakers. You could sell the maggies and sub for more than that.

I don't think that would solve his WAF problem.

[Feanor]

Bill,

Since you like the open airy sound of dipoles why not build some simple OB's? My Tang Band/Alpha H-frames can be built for $700 and sound far better than box speakers. You could sell the maggies and sub for more than that.

Poultry, yep, I do like the dipoles. But two things: (1) I'm skeptical that the TB OBs would sound better than the Maggies, and in any case (2) they wouldn't address the WAF factor.

[RGA]

Feanor the only disadvantage is you can't audition the kit first. Unless you can it's not necessarily wise to assume that "woofer and tweeter" costs this much so it must be better than "all" finished products at X price.

Most people know there is a 10-1 retail to manufacturer cost ratio in this business (that applies to kits). But a manufacturer is buying hundreds or more drivers and has a long standing relationship with driver makers. A guy buying a one of for himself is paying full retail.

I have heard a number of kit speakers - I haven't yet felt they beat manufactured speakers 2-3 times the price and in some cases they haven't beat manufactured speaker for considerably less money. I heard a famous kit speaker using Scanspeak drivers and a fancy tweeter for $1800 that doesn't sound anywhere remotely as good as the TR-5 from Roksan - a manufactured speaker that also has higher shipping costs. Not saying it never happens but I just would not make the assumption.

Magnepan should be fine for WAF. Just put a little marker on the floor - when done listening shove them out of the way.

The HAF matters in the marriage too - and the box sound you probably didn't like in the first place which is why you went to panels. IMO it costs more for a Boxed speaker to get out of the way of itself. HE speakers tend to a better job of getting the box out of the way - they generally sound a little more forward and nimbler on transients. The trick then is to try and find one that isn't shouty or honky like many of the budget horn speakers tend to be.

[Feanor]

Feanor the only disadvantage is you can't audition the kit first. Unless you can it's not necessarily wise to assume that "woofer and tweeter" costs this much so it must be better than "all" finished products at X price.
...
I have heard a number of kit speakers - I haven't yet felt they beat manufactured speakers 2-3 times the price and in some cases they haven't beat manufactured speaker for considerably less money. I heard a famous kit speaker using Scanspeak drivers and a fancy tweeter for $1800 that doesn't sound anywhere remotely as good as the TR-5 from Roksan - a manufactured speaker that also has higher shipping costs. Not saying it never happens but I just would not make the assumption.
...

I wouldn't say I'm making all lot of assumptions. The example I gave is a thoroughly designed speaker and ought to deliver the potential of the drivers.

Bear in mind that speaker design isn't a "black art" anymore, (though vendors would have you belief it). It's science -- and not even rocket science. Not that I'm trivializing the process: I've got Bass Box Pro and X-Over Pro but I don't presume that I could equal the results of a really compontent designer -- this is why I would buy a kit or build from a tested design.

If I were to spend a grand on a kit and "only" got the equivalent of $1000 manufactured speakers, I wouldn't complain. If I got more, great. And I can guarantee there are NO manufactured speakers selling for a grand with the equivalent of the ScanSpeak drivers.

[BadAssJazz]

Definitely anxious to see what you decide. Seems like lots of folks are looking for monitors these days. On this and other forums.

[Poultrygeist]

The OB Tang Band W8-1808 over H-frame Alphas have a 17X17X17 foot print. The top inverted T portion adds another 19 inches which for a total of 3 ft is shorter than most floor standers. There may be midget Maggies that small but I haven't seen one. My Zu's dwarfed these OB's.

To get the quality of the exotic Tang Band neodymium driver in a commercially made speaker you'd have to spend upwards of 5 figures. I wish I still had the link for a bass reflex commercial model using this same Tang Band driver and priced at $20,000.

[cackalacky]

I've loved my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's for several years now but there is a problem: they have to reside in the living room. That room is the only room adequately dimensiones and laid out to accomodate them, but it's also the formal area for receiving quests. Even so, my wife is very tolerant of the appearance of the MG 1.6's, (bless her heart), but not so much the space they hog, i.e. the 3' wall clearance.

What I'm considering, (I think), is a pair of 2-way, probably stand-mount speakers that can be placed within 1' of the wall and cost under $1200. For sound I prefer neutrality, clean detail, and precise imaging. With these speakers I intend to continue to use my passive preamp and my very neutral & transparent class D amp -- although I would considered active speakers too.

Folks, I need you help because I've been disregarding the state of the market for the type of speakers I've described" Your advice and suggestions, please!

Show some spine and move up to the 20.7s.

[Feanor]

Show some spine and move up to the 20.7s.

I'd need a bigger living room to accommodate the 20.7's -- and my wife wouldn't object to that, I'm sure.

Actually, my wife is really quite tolerant of the 1.6's

[Poultrygeist]

WAF? These are small and female.


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